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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, December 16, 2014 12:16 AM

and for most of its history shared the right-of-way and one of the two wires with regular streetcars, Type 5's for the most part, but also some 4's and to the end some pcc's.

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Posted by 54light15 on Wednesday, December 17, 2014 12:12 PM

I miss the trolley buses that Toronto used to have. The sparks would fly off the wire whenever they were at a crossing, like Bay Street (bus) at College Street (streetcar.) The last run was in 1993, the wires didn't come down for a few more years until David Gunn ran the show. You can still see evidence of them, like poles with brackets with a cut-off suspension wire hanging down and occasionally an abandoned pole like the one on Front Street just west of Yonge.

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Posted by Paul of Covington on Friday, December 19, 2014 12:17 PM

   Here's a question maybe someone here could help me with.   At a switch, how does the trolley contactor know which way to go?   Is it only that it follows the angle of the body of the streetcar, or is there a switching arrangement?   I suspect the former.   The very few times I have seen one jump the wire it was at a switch.

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Posted by 54light15 on Friday, December 19, 2014 1:41 PM

They just follow the body of the car. It works OK for the most part but they will jump off sometimes.

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Posted by daveklepper on Saturday, December 20, 2014 9:22 PM

One reason it follows the body of the car is that the wire frog that is junction for the wires is located slightly beyond the point where the of center the two diverging tracks meet.  This results in some sidways force applied to the trolley wheel or shoe for the curved route, with the straight route following the path of least resistance, thus going straight.

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Posted by rcdrye on Sunday, December 21, 2014 5:33 PM

Setting a trolley frog is something of an art, since not all cars track the same way.  Often a frog will be clamped in place and then adjusted several times before being finally secured.  A frog can also move when other wires move, making wirework over a steet intersection a very delicate thing indeed.

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, December 22, 2014 4:08 PM

The frog must be level, horizontal, side-to-side, and this may require attention and adjustment,

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Posted by BR60103 on Wednesday, December 31, 2014 9:36 PM

The trolley frog casting has a little ridge that the wheel or shoe can ride along. This is gapped at the middle and there is then one piece going off to the side.

At locations where the cars run through in one route almost always, the shoe may track that way even when the car goes the other.

Trolley bus frogs are mechanized. Two offset contactors get contacted at the same time when the bus is turning (parallellogram) and the frogs switch over. Partway through the frog the shoe causes the frog to return to normal. Trolley bus shoes swivel so that they can run off to the side of the wire route.

On retrievers: when TTC rebuilt their PCCs in the 70s, they replaced the roof with a fiberglass molding. When a pole dewired it slammed into the roof so hard that it broke the fiberglass.  The system mounted a rubber ball on the rope that stopped it before the pole struck the roof. I don't know about the CLRV/ALRV but the new Flexity cars have a ball on the rope.

The ball often got stuck in the retriever casting and had to be pried out.

 

--David

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Posted by gardendance on Thursday, January 1, 2015 6:20 AM

If it's still priable then I'd say stuck ball is preferrable to cracked roof.

Of course the prying tool must be a swicth iron, in my opinion the duct tape of the streetcar industry. If you can't fix it with a switch iron it can't be fixed.

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Posted by saxhorn on Thursday, January 1, 2015 7:33 AM

was anyone ever in Washington D.C. when Capitol Transit ran PCCs?  did anyone read my question thereabout?  i have not seen a reply that indicates so.  

the city forbad overhead; the streetcars gathered electricity from underground conduit accessed by a plough attached to the car through a slot between the tracks, NOT with overhead wire -- the poles were tied down.  the change(s) were made by workers by hand in a trench at city limits, as normal overhead wire was permitted outside city llimits, whence the PCCs proceeded "normally."  this procedure may have pre-dated PCCs, but those are all i remember.  if i could find my book on the History of Capitol Transit all might be clarified (but the book has been misplaced).  underground plough pickup was rare but, IIRC, not limited to Washington D.C.  i feel i put out an interesting question which no one has read, or has bothered to address, or knows anything about and is hence ignoring.  (or maybe i'm in the wrong place..........)  y'all are self-proclamed "transit experts," and there have been mentions of TTs, but ................

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, January 1, 2015 9:19 AM

saxhorn

was anyone ever in Washington D.C. when Capitol Transit ran PCCs?  did anyone read my question thereabout?  i have not seen a reply that indicates so.  

the city forbad overhead; the streetcars gathered electricity from underground conduit accessed by a plough attached to the car through a slot between the tracks, NOT with overhead wire -- the poles were tied down.  the change(s) were made by workers by hand in a trench at city limits, as normal overhead wire was permitted outside city llimits, whence the PCCs proceeded "normally."  this procedure may have pre-dated PCCs, but those are all i remember.  if i could find my book on the History of Capitol Transit all might be clarified (but the book has been misplaced).  underground plough pickup was rare but, IIRC, not limited to Washington D.C.  i feel i put out an interesting question which no one has read, or has bothered to address, or knows anything about and is hence ignoring.  (or maybe i'm in the wrong place..........)  y'all are self-proclamed "transit experts," and there have been mentions of TTs, but ................

I lived in DC during the last half of 1960 and the first half of 1961.  I lived off of DuPont Circle, I believe it was on N Street.

I remember the PCCs that ran in the district.  The contact poles, as you have noted, were secured whilst the cars ran in the district, and the cars drew their power from the pough - I did not know what it was called - that fitted through a slot between the tracks.

Your question is not clear.  Are you asking about how they changed the switches?  Or how the plough was engaged?  Or how they switched from overhead to underground power, although I think that you have covered that operation.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, January 1, 2015 1:08 PM

I visited Washington, DC, from about age 3 in 1935 to a business trip and an evening singing with a synagogue choir in 1994, averaging about once a year.  I even remember the conduit-only, trolley-pole-less center-door cars that were scrapped when the first PCC's came.  If you email me at daveklepper@yahoo.com I will attach a return picture taken INSIDE the plowpit in Georgetown used either by the Frendship Heights or the Cabin John line, forget which it was and the documentation vanished.  B&W photo about 1947.

As in NewYork, except during periods of the lighgtest traffic when one man was sufficient. there was one man in the plow pit whichs spanned both tracks under the street, and he removed the plow from under the truck of the outbound car and put it or a plow already in the rack for plows in the pit on the next inbound car.  Man No.2 handled the poles.  This was the proceedure until sometime in the PCC era.  Then Capitol Transit's PCC's were equipped with motorized retreavers that could raise and lower the poles by controls by the operator.  At the same time inverted-V wire mesh was applied to the trolley wires at the changeover points,  on both tracks if my memory is correct, in case of wrong-rail single-track operation, so that the inverted V would guide the rising shoe to center on the trolley wire.  At the time I took the picture, the only remaining changeover point that required two men was on the Benning line, whiclh still saw double-end lightweights and deck-roof cars, as well as the PCC's.  The post-WWII PCC's with standee windows came with the motor-operated poles.

The conduit in NY and Wasington was very similar, a slot in the street with a one-inch high conductor on each side, one positive and one ground-and-negative.  The wood plow had sprun copper contact shoes on both sides, leading to flexible thick insulated cables that were plugged into receptacles under the truck bolster, leadiing to other flexible cables to the car's control equipment.  The plow could move side-to-side, but was lightly spring-loaded for centering.  This did allow the plow to find the correct path when the slot divided into two at switches.  London, Paris, and Budapest were the only other cities I know of using the conduit system.  In London, the plow carrier was at the center of the car body, not under a truck bolster, and the carrier extened all the way to the side of the car.  Instead of plowpits, the arrangement was that the conduit slot of the outbound and inbound tracks came together in a Y between the two tracks, and the plow would continue forward emerging from the side of the car, still in the slot, and the single plowman could match up the speed of a plow for an inbounnd with the car's speed, then the car would snatch the plow.

The Washington Baltimore and Annapolis was the only interurban with dars equipped for conduit operation.

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Posted by Speaking clock on Monday, January 5, 2015 4:34 PM

Does anyone know how any of cincinnati's streetcars ran? There's one car restored in the cincinnati history museum in Union terminal. I think its an older one (not streamlined) but I cannot  tell.

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Tuesday, January 6, 2015 6:44 AM

Cincinnati's streetcars were unusual in that they operated with double overhead, like trolley buses.  I have heard that the second overhead was used instead of the rails for the return to minimize interference problems with phone lines.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by Paul of Covington on Tuesday, January 6, 2015 12:46 PM

BR60103

Trolley bus frogs are mechanized. Two offset contactors get contacted at the same time when the bus is turning (parallellogram) and the frogs switch over. Partway through the frog the shoe causes the frog to return to normal. Trolley bus shoes swivel so that they can run off to the side of the wire route.

   Thanks, BR60103.   I hadn't given much thought to the trolley buses, about the shoes swiveling though I should have, since I'd observed them moving a full lane over each way from under the wires.   This makes me wonder about the case where streetcars and trolley buses run on the same route sharing one of the wires.   I'm thinking of New Orleans before the mid 60' where bus and streetcar routes converged coming in to town then split, rejoined and split again.   I guess the frog could be set up to default to the streetcar's position and be triggered to change for the bus's direction by the means you mentioned.

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