Hello all ;
Here's a little video showing some of the trolleys that ply the streets of my city. Hope you like it
watch?v=UaPMCyl9taw
Very nice. At least some of those are Brills (J.G. Brill, a large Philadelphia carbuilder) so the american appearance isn't that shocking.
Maria,
Thanks for the fascinating video. Your city seems to be one of those that doesn't throw everything away every 10 or 20 years. Trolley cars, if properly maintained, can run for a great many years. This cars look like they may have been made in the 1920's. I wouldn't be surprised if your city brought then from the US for scrap prices when we were foolish enough to throw them out.
Quite a number of European cities bought trolleys in the US at the beginning of the 20th century. Lisbon has retained those cars from that period. AFAIK, Milano in Italy still uses some of the old cars, as well.
If you are lucky, you can see this oldtimer next to one of those:
What a sight!
Great video! Fascinating as well. I like the way some of the cars have been up-graded with new pantographs and motormans positions. Very smart.
I found the Jamesons Irish Whiskey ads on some of the cars interesting as well. Was this video shot around Saint Patrick's Day?
Sir MadogMilano in Italy still uses some of the old cars, as well.
The more I see of this the more I wonder about the American cities that decided to abandon these cars. All of the arguments for the American decision that I have seen boil down to the fact that the cars were worn out and too expensive to maintain. If this is true Lisbon, Milan and in the US New Orleans have all made a really dumb decision to keep them. It must be costing them a fortune to maintain the old cars. In Providence, the city where I grew up, decided to burn them. One Fourth of July they were burned in a hugh bonfire. Was Providence's decision the right one? Or do Lisbon, Milan and New Orleans all know something that most of the US does not know?
The simplest answer is usually the best. Lisbon, Milan, and New Orleans had a demand for trolley transportation that never went away. So, neither did the trolleys. It's just that simple.
Firelock76The simplest answer is usually the best. Lisbon, Milan, and New Orleans had a demand for trolley transportation that never went away. So, neither did the trolleys. It's just that simple.
Do you suggest that cities where many people could not afford private vehicles wound up with transportation everyone could afford rather than transportation that left some with no transportation?
John WR Firelock76The simplest answer is usually the best. Lisbon, Milan, and New Orleans had a demand for trolley transportation that never went away. So, neither did the trolleys. It's just that simple. Do you suggest that cities where many people could not afford private vehicles wound up with transportation everyone could afford rather than transportation that left some with no transportation?
No, not necessarily. In some cities electric public transportation evolved, for lack of a better term, into something else, like trolley to subways in New York City.
As I've said in other trolley topics, I'm familiar with what happened in the Northern New Jersey area. I can't speak about other parts of the country because quite honestly what happened there doesn't interest me. What I can say is that in NJ the trolley systems died strictly due to lack of demand. The automobile took over and took over completely. There was a pretty good road network to support it, it was affordable by the time of World War One, and (this is important) car owners had a place to park their vehicles. Looking at how tight some of those Lisbon streets are shows me another reason the trolleys survived. Even if you can afford a car where are you going to keep it? If Mario wants to correct me on this he's more than welcome, I won't be offended.
No point in going 'round and 'round with this, but with transportation, public or otherwise, we're certainly not looking at a "one size fits all" situation. There's countless variations and outcomes.
Firelock76What I can say is that in NJ the trolley systems died strictly due to lack of demand. The automobile took over and took over completely. There was a pretty good road network to support it, it was affordable by the time of World War One, and (this is important) car owners had a place to park their vehicles.
If all you say is true why then when trollies were abandoned were they replaced at least to some extent by buses? Today many bus lines are on the same or a similar route to one that was once travelled by a trolley. As demand declined due to automobiles wouldn't have it made more sense to operate the existing trolley cars on a reduced schedule rather than scraping them and going to the expense of replacing them with new buses?
Well, in the case of North Jersey's Public Service Co-odinated Transport trolleys, those trolley right of ways were being taxed as real estate, just as railroad lines are subject to real estate taxes. Public Service was paying taxes for a road network they couldn't use, ergo, it was economic sense to abandon some, if not most of the trolley lines and switch to buses. They also saved money by pulling the overhead wires down. and of course there was the increased flexibility of bus routing. And keep in mind gasoline and diesel fuel were dirt cheap in those days. I should add in the 1920's anyone who could get the capital together could start a bus company, they weren't too regulated in those days. Public Service was losing a lot of customers to the competing bus companys. One sneaky trick the bus companys did was to show up at a trolley stop five minutes earlier than the trolley and steal the customers. Any way you look at it the trolley lines were losing customers and the process couldn't be stopped.
These decisions weren't taken lightly. The Head of PSCT in 1929 was a confirmed trolley man, but the numbers were there and he couldn't deny them. The decision was taken reluctantly but it had to be made. The way out of the mess was for Public Service to buy as many of the competing bus companys as they could. All the trolley lines didn't disappear overnight of course, but most did go by the late 30's. some hung on a bit longer.
Hey Mario, sorry your thread's been hijacked! That was a cool video you posted!
Firelock,
The property tax issue makes sense and certainly gas and diesel fuel were a lot cheaper then.
The jitney issue is still with New Jersey Transit. I haven't seen any in Essex County but I used to ride the bus in Hudson County and jitneys are common there. Typically, they are run by a guy who owns a van. I used them at times but, while cheaper than NJT, they tend to be crowded and uncomfortable. And the word on the street is that they are not insured so if you have an accident you are on your own. Since as a matter of law jitneys are illegal I wonder if a rider's own insurance would kick in as a result of an injury from an accident.
Mario, I join Firelock in his apology. All this happened because I like your pictures. No good deed shall go unpunished.
John
You know John, that uninsured jitney problem existed in the 1920's as well. As they say, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Mario_v Hello all ; Here's a little video showing some of the trolleys that ply the streets of my city. Hope you like it [View:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaPMCyl9taw]
[View:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaPMCyl9taw]
Mario V:
Thank you for sharing your video of the Trolley system there in you city in Portugal.
I am not sure whether you are aware of it or not but starting some time in the late 1980s (or 1990's) The City of memphis started importing some 'streecars' some from Porto, Portugal ( some singlr truck Birnys, and some bigger, double- trucked cars from Melnbourne, Australia.) The conditions ranged from very well worn, to 'Hulks' (my thoughts on seeing them after their arrival in Memphis).
They were all rebuilt,(overhauled ?) and somewhat upgraded to be operated at first on a 2.5 mile line on Main Street. They were repaired and put inot service at a warehouse across the street from their 'Car Barn' at North Main and Mill Streets.
Their first service was in April of 1993. They later put a connecting loop on both the North and South ends of the Main Street line to connect to a line that paralleled the former ICRR line from Central Station north to a connection by the area of the Car Barn back onto the Main Street line. ( This is a pretty good down grade from the area of Central Station to the North)
Here is a video of one of the single truck Birnys : http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=qgDGdTuNnlo&NR=1
[If you search You Tube.com for " Memphis Trolleys" there are a number of videos showing the trolleys in operation], as well as some for the former Melbourne Cars ( The Double Trucked Cars).
Seems that since they opened the Medical Center Line to the East; they have had to add a pantograph to the cars as apparently Memphis Drivers were tough on the Motormen when they had to get out onto the street to swap ends with the poles...
I have to admit the cars were well done when they went back into service, and seem to be, being well kept up.
Here is a link to a site that has a number of photos of the Memphis Trolley System( as well as some historical info). http://www.heritagetrolley.org/TNERJMemphis2.htm
It is the APTA Streetcar and Heritage Trolley Site ( Hosted by the Seashore Trolley Museum)
It is well worth looking around, as it has lots of information and interesting links!
I noticed that all the cars have both pantographs and trolley poles for the power pick up and at various locations one was used as opposed to the other with predominate majority of what you pictured being operated under trolley poles. Is there any particular reason for using one as opposed to the other?
I also notice the some of the streets were barely wide enough for the operation of the trolley cars - are these streets for the exclusive use of trolley cars or are they also used for automobiles.
Some places it looks like trackage (siding or double track) has been abandoned to automobile parking. Is this correct?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
When I have ridden the jitneys in Hudson County the driver closes the door by pulling on a clothesline he has tied to the handle. The drivers are hard working guys trying to earn a living for themselves and their families. I appreciate their resourcefulness but it is not reassuring about the issue of insurance.
Basically the system that is operational to this day is a fair cry from the 90 track miles of the early 60's (versus 30 today). That's why it's pretty commom to see a lot of tram tracks out of use, even in places where trolleys aren't operating for some 40 years (and because lifting the tracks is a very expensive operation, wich is only done when major repairs are done to the underground plumbing system).
As for the pantograph & tolly, we here use a grooved wire than can be operated by cars with both systems. Yet, in one of the lines (28), there isn't enough clearance in some of the streets to operate with pantograph, hence the trolly
Indeed the firt cars that entered service in 1901 and up untill 1914 were Brills (exception made for some 20 2 truck cars built by John Stephenson in 1907). Also in the early 20's (1925 to 27) some 24 cars were built locally using plans and mechanical parts supplied by Brill. After that, despita all mechanical parts caming from MetroVick in the UK, the some how 'American' aspect was kept as some sort of trademark
Although maintaining a 'classic look', all the trams shown were heavily rebuilt between 1994 and 1996, with new frames and engines, only the shells were kept, albeit with a big percentage of their wood replaced.
However, in the 'marginal route' (next to the Tagus river), priot to the arrival of new modern articulated cars in 1994, there were Brills p+erating that dated back to 1906 and 1907, wich were bought new from the factory
Mario_v all the trams shown were heavily rebuilt between 1994 and 1996, with new frames and engines,
No doubt the rebuilding was expensive. However, it allowed electromechanical parts to be replaced with electronic parts which are a lot cheaper to operate and it also continued to use electric power which is also cheaper than any kind of fossil fuel and has other benefits.
My complements to the tram rebuilders, they did a wonderful job!
It was basically an in house rebuilding, with the engines supplied by Ferrostaal of Germany
Firelock76 Great video! Fascinating as well. I like the way some of the cars have been up-graded with new pantographs and motormans positions. Very smart. I found the Jamesons Irish Whiskey ads on some of the cars interesting as well. Was this video shot around Saint Patrick's Day?
Jameson is a big sponsor of the local transit cmpany. As trolleys are part of the city's image, some companies use them as rolling billboards
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