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wny transit plans needed in rural areas.

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  • Member since
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wny transit plans needed in rural areas.
Posted by father& son train watchers on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 8:18 AM
In this area the city is the only place u can ride the transit rail. this area really needs a person to develop a plan and make it happen. the city cries not enough tourist,well built it and they will come. This would be a great way to save on gas in this area. We have rails but not used that often in rural areas. hopefully some reads this and does something .
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Posted by carnej1 on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 11:27 AM
the only thing stopping that is $$$$$...

"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock

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Posted by father& son train watchers on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 8:35 PM

  How can i get more info, on what erie county is planning  for this situation. i would think it would be great idea for this area. does anybody in this forum think so. private investors  have so much oppurtunity in this area,take a look.Hope to hear from some locals in southtowns,and county.

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Posted by alphas on Tuesday, October 14, 2008 10:45 PM
Private investors are definitely not interested in rail transit.   Last I heard not one transit authority was making money and most were having trouble even covering their operating costs, let alone capital costs.   As for rural areas, they simply don't have the population needed for rail transit-- and very few have enough for bus transit.
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Posted by al-in-chgo on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 12:58 AM

 alphas wrote:
Private investors are definitely not interested in rail transit.   Last I heard not one transit authority was making money and most were having trouble even covering their operating costs, let alone capital costs.   As for rural areas, they simply don't have the population needed for rail transit-- and very few have enough for bus transit.

And if the Urban Mass Transit Act of 1971 still holds, it is illegal for a profit-seeking company to take over or implement urban mass transit.  Everything (trains, RT, buses) must be offered by a quasi-governmental Transit District of some sort.  In that respect, the U.S. is less capitalist and more "socialist" than Germany, Switzerland or Japan, which have many private lines, private streetcar companies, etc.  Especially in medium-size cities. 

al-in-chgo
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Posted by scottychaos on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 6:27 AM
father son train watchers

  How can i get more info, on what erie county is planning  for this situation. i would think it would be great idea for this area. does anybody in this forum think so. private investors  have so much oppurtunity in this area,take a look.Hope to hear from some locals in southtowns,and county.

 

Im over in Rochester, and am familiar with the transit plans being kicked around for Buffalo and Rochester..

Sorry "father & son" but its not going to happen..because no one wants it and no one needs it..there is a reason railroads gave up passenger service in the 1930's, 40's, and 50's..that reason was the automobile..Amtrak has not turned a profit ever..

Buffalo has light rail downtown..right in the middle of the city where lots of people actually live and work..it is barely used.

There is no way any passenger rail will be built way out into the suburbs and rural areas...because no one wants or needs it..

No one is going to spend millions on a project maybe 3 people will actually use..

Americans love our cars..thats not going to change..price of gas is really irrelevant.

back in the 1840's - 1940's passenger trains thrived because it was the ONLY way to get anywhere! ;) Cars and airplanes didnt yet exist..it was either the train or the ox-drawn cart..

the train was the way to go..

not today..passenger rail is dead except in the major urban commuter markets..The rural areas south of Buffalo arent exactly a major urban commuter market...

so combine that (the fact that no one wants or needs it, because we all have cars that are much faster and convient) with the economic disaster that is our beloved (cough-cough) New York State on the edge of collapse..and its REALLY not going to happen! ;)

sorry..but is just reality....

Scot

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Posted by paulsafety on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:05 PM

al-in-chgo
  alphas wrote:
Private investors are definitely not interested in rail transit.   Last I heard not one transit authority was making money and most were having trouble even covering their operating costs, let alone capital costs.   As for rural areas, they simply don't have the population needed for rail transit-- and very few have enough for bus transit.

And if the Urban Mass Transit Act of 1971 still holds, it is illegal for a profit-seeking company to take over or implement urban mass transit.  Everything (trains, RT, buses) must be offered by a quasi-governmental Transit District of some sort.  In that respect, the U.S. is less capitalist and more "socialist" than Germany, Switzerland or Japan, which have many private lines, private streetcar companies, etc.  Especially in medium-size cities. 

Al, you're correct; however, for profit companies may bid on routes and services if the transit operator is not interested in (or is not capable of) providing the service (ie. para transit services, recurring "charter-type" movements of larger numbers of passengers within city limits (such as shuttling convention goers between hotels and convention center, etc.)

We have a private operator here in NJ that operates several NJ transit routes....their buses are painted as NJ Transit colors, but have stenciled "owned and operated by XYZ bus company".

So,,,,under the right alignment of stars, contracts being signed, etc. it could happen, but it isn't likely as the "return on investment" is so low (or a negative in most cases).

Paul F.

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Posted by al-in-chgo on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:18 PM

Thanks for the update.  To me, it sounds almost like the permitted third-party operator would have no rationale to offer new equipment or innovative service.  And I guess you're right, running a route that the TD can't support itself, in a profitable manner, is not going to be wildly profitable.  My best guess is that the TD dictates costs and payments.  If it isn't a subsidy, it's close to one, and possibly also a closed market.  -  a.s.

 

al-in-chgo
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Posted by paulsafety on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 3:44 PM

al-in-chgo

Thanks for the update.  To me, it sounds almost like the permitted third-party operator would have no rationale to offer new equipment or innovative service.  And I guess you're right, running a route that the TD can't support itself, in a profitable manner, is not going to be wildly profitable.  My best guess is that the TD dictates costs and payments.  If it isn't a subsidy, it's close to one, and possibly also a closed market.  -  a.s.

Yeah, in most cases, the transit agency doesn't have the spare equipment capacity, doesn't have the expertise (training) to handle certain scenarios, or lacks the "right equipment" for special shuttle operations (convention goers don't like transit buses with hard seats and such -- they want plush).  Also, niche routes in outlying (way, way outlying) suburbs that are mainly feeders to an existing rail hub (too much dead head time, no local or convenient garage/terminal, etc.)

Some agencies post "jobs/routes" that they either don't want or can't handle so that private firms can compete for the business. 

So if someone owned a right of way (or could "lease" track time), had access to appropriate equipment, then they could get approval to operate.  There were proposals to reactivate some abandonded lines in the Philly area (Fox Chase - Newtown, etc.) using DMU from europe and having passengers change to SEPTA for an EMU ride to center city, but it never got off the ground.

In terms of rural transit here are some web sites that should help the original poster:

http://www.apta.com/links/state_local/PA.cfm

http://www.ppta.net/

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/planning/rural/

http://www.ruraltransportation.org/

http://www.nationalrtap.org/

Paul

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Posted by henry6 on Wednesday, October 15, 2008 7:32 PM

Don't confuse "rapid transit" with "mass transit". And it does not necessarily mean rail, either.   Some rural areas do need a transit system of some kind.  Often the big bus companies don't want to stop but every 25 to 50 miles and only along major highway routes between major city destinations leaving big spaces without any kind of service.  Rapid transit denotes, in  my mind anyway, a service of regularly (and relatively short) spaced intervals of arrivals and departures over the course of a day...light rail, heavy rail, even bus,...and is usually found in more urban areas to, from, and thorugh a city.  Mass transit is any kind of transit that is provided, can be rapid transit or any other kind for public use often provided by government agencies.  But private bus companies can also provide such service as could rail in certain situations. Rural areas do not have dense corridors so mass transit often takes the form of on demand bus services or one way morning, reverse evening to and from major industry or towns.   Some counties do provide or contract for such services.   

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, October 16, 2008 4:28 AM

The Swiss Postbus transit service might be of use in the USA.   Combine mail delivery with rural transit service.

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Posted by Phoebe Vet on Thursday, October 16, 2008 5:29 PM

Scotty:

Have you checked out the pod system they are trying in Ithaca?

Dave

Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow

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