EngineerdHowdy! New to the message board here. Caldreamer, do you happen to have engine speed by notch for the 7Fdl16 too?
This has just about everything except the critical speeds and governed notch speeds!
I believe there have been previous threads with the railroad-specific information...
Howdy! New to the message board here. Caldreamer, do you happen to have engine speed by notch for the 7Fdl16 too?
jeffhergertNow, the last time this manager worked as an engineer was before EMS and PTC. You would still think he would be up on how things work. Jeff
At least they used to be an engineer. In my job, most management folks were hired 'off the street' with no relevent experince, and spend their first couple of years as essentially highly-paid interns trying to get up to speed. Of course, not knowing how to do the job doesn't stop them from telling us how to do it!
Hi Caldreamer, can I please have the fuel usage for each notch setting for GEVO-12 and 7FDL-16? Cheers.
caldreamer I have the fuel usage for each notch setting for a number of locomotives from just about all of the manufacturers and models. Caldreamer
I have the fuel usage for each notch setting for a number of locomotives from just about all of the manufacturers and models.
Caldreamer
Hey Caldreamer. I have a few locomotives I would like to obtain the throttle consumption figures for. Would it be possible to get some from you? If so could you message me as I am unable to message you. Thanks
For us, they only consider it stretch/power braking if you release the air above a certain notch. I think they raised it back to notch 5, it was notch 3 before. It's one of those items they like to change every so often, as the mood strikes them.
The managers always want to see "stair steps" on the tapes as one opens or closes the throttle. One coworker was telling me his manager was riding with him. He went to engage one of the energy management systems, which once you push the button you move the throttle to notch 8. It doesn't engage until the thottle is in 8 and moving the throttle doesn't register anything. The computer holds it in whatever position it was in until fully engaged. So you can just move the throttle to 8. So my coworker just swiped the throttle to 8. His manager asked him, "WHAT DID YOU JUST DO!" The MOP started reading him the riot act when my coworker informed him about initiating EMS.
Now, the last time this manager worked as an engineer was before EMS and PTC. You would still think he would be up on how things work.
Jeff
oltmanndDo you get summarily shot for stretch braking?
Oh yeah.. it's like a game of BINGO. All sorts of stuff they tell you they don't like.
It's a whole new railroad.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann oltmannd If you have a train all stretched out and you are in a position where you can't possibly generate enough TE to get a knuckle...wiping the throttle will just get you where you're going faster Not according to the tattle-tales that live in teh magic PTC box.
oltmannd If you have a train all stretched out and you are in a position where you can't possibly generate enough TE to get a knuckle...wiping the throttle will just get you where you're going faster
Not according to the tattle-tales that live in teh magic PTC box.
okay. They'll just get you to your trial faster.
Do you get summarily shot for stretch braking?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmanndIf you have a train all stretched out and you are in a position where you can't possibly generate enough TE to get a knuckle...wiping the throttle will just get you where you're going faster
zugmann oltmannd The speed changes were fast. The loading was slow. If you wipe the throttle on a GE Dash 7 or 8, it's 80 seconds to full load, and more than half of it occurs in the last 20 seconds. "Train handling exception: throttle modulation." [acknowledge]
oltmannd The speed changes were fast. The loading was slow. If you wipe the throttle on a GE Dash 7 or 8, it's 80 seconds to full load, and more than half of it occurs in the last 20 seconds.
"Train handling exception: throttle modulation."
[acknowledge]
If you have a train all stretched out and you are in a position where you can't possibly generate enough TE to get a knuckle...wiping the throttle will just get you where you're going faster
An EMD (pre-AC) - wiping the throttle would get you to full load inside of 25 seconds, nearly linearly.
GE CHEC had "three slope curve".
God bless you if you had to start a train on the grade with a B36 leading and GP40s trailing...and you needed all three to get rolling.
oltmanndThe speed changes were fast. The loading was slow. If you wipe the throttle on a GE Dash 7 or 8, it's 80 seconds to full load, and more than half of it occurs in the last 20 seconds.
Overmod. If I remember correctly the engine speed changes were artificially dashpotted to avoid smoke shows due to turbo lag, and the purely loading transitions of the intermediate notches might not have had a comparable long 'time constant' -- as a feature, of course.
The speed changes were fast. The loading was slow. If you wipe the throttle on a GE Dash 7 or 8, it's 80 seconds to full load, and more than half of it occurs in the last 20 seconds.
Paul MilenkovicIs this anything like those placebo walk light buttons that apparently have not effect on the scheduling of the cross walk light?
Remember that these would result in weird loading mismatch with ordinary 8-notch units if more aggressive excitation is what the half-notches control and the engineer isn't careful to count if he is engaging a half or whole notch in a one-notch throttle lever transition. If I remember correctly the engine speed changes were artificially dashpotted to avoid smoke shows due to turbo lag, and the purely loading transitions of the intermediate notches might not have had a comparable long 'time constant' -- as a feature, of course.
oltmannd By the time the U25s with their half notches got to Conrail, all of that nonsense had been removed but the throttle still moved in half notch increments. There were still engineers who had all sorts of theories on how to use the half notches, even though they didn't work anymore!
By the time the U25s with their half notches got to Conrail, all of that nonsense had been removed but the throttle still moved in half notch increments. There were still engineers who had all sorts of theories on how to use the half notches, even though they didn't work anymore!
Is this anything like those placebo walk light buttons that apparently have not effect on the scheduling of the cross walk light?
If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?
timzUntil dunno-when, GEs had 16-notch throttles -- the engine speed increased at alternate notches, with just an excitation increase in the in-between notches.
timzIn the 1970s, GE (trying to save fuel) tried running with three (?) engine speeds instead of eight -- the engine was at 1050 RPM in notches 6, 7 and 8, or some such thing.
The 1-5-8 speed schedule. Trying to get the darned things to load a bit quicker. Notch 5 engine speed in notches 2-5, Notch 8 after that. A good chunk of PC U23Bs had this silliness. It was superceded with "skip 3, double 6".
Overmod timz When a current GE is in Run 8, the engine isn't always at maximum RPM? At low locomotive speed, prime mover RPMs might drop while the locomotive continues to produce maximum TE in Run 8? That is a good question. In the days before FADEC EFI the governed maximum speed is what would be commanded in Run 8 (with the governor of course apportioning fuel to keep the engine at that rpm regardless of load). It would make sense for a computer to drop the rpm as noted for physical deloading, both for the significant aggregate fuel saving and reduction of wear and tear. I suggest that the immediate path to a practical answer involves a BatLight call to Randy Stahl...
timz When a current GE is in Run 8, the engine isn't always at maximum RPM? At low locomotive speed, prime mover RPMs might drop while the locomotive continues to produce maximum TE in Run 8?
That is a good question. In the days before FADEC EFI the governed maximum speed is what would be commanded in Run 8 (with the governor of course apportioning fuel to keep the engine at that rpm regardless of load). It would make sense for a computer to drop the rpm as noted for physical deloading, both for the significant aggregate fuel saving and reduction of wear and tear.
I suggest that the immediate path to a practical answer involves a BatLight call to Randy Stahl...
And yes, if a GE loco is in the lead with an EMD trailing, under the right circumstances, when the throttle is increased the EMD will bump the GE telling it to quit picking its nose and start loading!!!
.
timzWhen a current GE is in Run 8, the engine isn't always at maximum RPM? At low locomotive speed, prime mover RPMs might drop while the locomotive continues to produce maximum TE in Run 8?
That reminds me of another question --
When a current GE is in Run 8, the engine isn't always at maximum RPM? At low locomotive speed, prime mover RPMs might drop while the locomotive continues to produce maximum TE in Run 8?
Did/do FDL16-powered units do that?
timz Lithonia Operator Do/did all diesels have 8 settings? Until dunno-when, GEs had 16-notch throttles -- the engine speed increased at alternate notches, with just an excitation increase in the in-between notches. In the 1970s, GE (trying to save fuel) tried running with three (?) engine speeds instead of eight -- the engine was at 1050 RPM in notches 6, 7 and 8, or some such thing. And everyone remembers UP's rebuilt SD24 with its constant-speed engine -- don't recall how long that lasted.
Lithonia Operator Do/did all diesels have 8 settings?
Until dunno-when, GEs had 16-notch throttles -- the engine speed increased at alternate notches, with just an excitation increase in the in-between notches.
In the 1970s, GE (trying to save fuel) tried running with three (?) engine speeds instead of eight -- the engine was at 1050 RPM in notches 6, 7 and 8, or some such thing. And everyone remembers UP's rebuilt SD24 with its constant-speed engine -- don't recall how long that lasted.
The current GE's still have half notches. The engineer can't access them, only have the 8 notch throttle, but GE's Trip Optimizer Auto Throttle can.
bogie_engineer Throughout the paper Kettering stresses listening to what the parts are telling you, I think that's critical in any development program.
Throughout the paper Kettering stresses listening to what the parts are telling you, I think that's critical in any development program.
Oh, my yes! EMD heads went through more evolutions than anything. Circles, Diamonds, numbers. Hard to keep track of...
M636C Lithonia Operator Why 8 levels? Why not, say, 10? Do/did all diesels have 8 settings? EMD, GE, Alco, etc. Are these 8 levels available in a switch engine, say an SE type? One reason for eight notches was the need to avoid engine speeds where torsional vibration in the crankshaft would become a problem. This is shown in a diagram in Eugene Kettering's ASME paper on the development of the 567 engine, which I think is available on the Utah Rails website. This seems to be more of a problem on the EMD two stroke engine than on the four stroke engines used by GE and Alco. The firing order was changed on the 8-567C (becoming the 8-567CR) and on the 12-710G3A (becoming the 12N-710G3B) to avoid these problems. Peter
Lithonia Operator Why 8 levels? Why not, say, 10? Do/did all diesels have 8 settings? EMD, GE, Alco, etc. Are these 8 levels available in a switch engine, say an SE type?
Why 8 levels? Why not, say, 10?
Do/did all diesels have 8 settings? EMD, GE, Alco, etc.
Are these 8 levels available in a switch engine, say an SE type?
One reason for eight notches was the need to avoid engine speeds where torsional vibration in the crankshaft would become a problem.
This is shown in a diagram in Eugene Kettering's ASME paper on the development of the 567 engine, which I think is available on the Utah Rails website.
This seems to be more of a problem on the EMD two stroke engine than on the four stroke engines used by GE and Alco.
The firing order was changed on the 8-567C (becoming the 8-567CR) and on the 12-710G3A (becoming the 12N-710G3B) to avoid these problems.
Peter
As the HP increased, EMD eventually had to go to visous crankshaft dampers. The spring-pack ones didn't have enough oomph. Engines speed schedule had to be worked around the "peaks", for sure, but the governor design gives lots of leeway for setting the speed schedule.
That 567 paper is very interesting! The 567C engine was pretty bullet-proof and lots of the older A and B engines had some of the improvement incorporated when rebuilt. The GP9, with that 567C engine and battery field excitation might have been the most dirt simple, reliable locomotive ever made.
Moreover, he implicitly stresses watch for what the parts are telling you... and learn from it and from 'all that that implies' for your future work.
It occurs to me that Mr. Goding, or people he knows how to contact, would be able to write a comparable account of the H-block 265 engine, including a reasonably conclusive account of ultrasonic concentration in thin-wall cast blocks at high power and any remediation strategies GM tried. As I tried to point out during the British steam LSR challenge -- unsuccessfully -- documenting even blind alleys or mistaken designs can be highly valuable, to advancing the state of the art and its understanding as well as staying ahead of the edge of history.
The US Navy had 567 engines in their LST's.
bogie_engineer Overmod M636C This is shown in a diagram in Eugene Kettering's ASME paper on the development of the 567 engine, which I think is available on the Utah Rails website. https://utahrails.net/pdf/EMD_567_History_and_Development_1951.pdf Fascinating story to me, I liked the line about the dipstick being the only thing that didn't give a problem. It puts into focus the difficulty in designing a new engine or any other complex system perfect out of the box. Dave
Overmod M636C This is shown in a diagram in Eugene Kettering's ASME paper on the development of the 567 engine, which I think is available on the Utah Rails website. https://utahrails.net/pdf/EMD_567_History_and_Development_1951.pdf
M636C This is shown in a diagram in Eugene Kettering's ASME paper on the development of the 567 engine, which I think is available on the Utah Rails website.
https://utahrails.net/pdf/EMD_567_History_and_Development_1951.pdf
Fascinating story to me, I liked the line about the dipstick being the only thing that didn't give a problem. It puts into focus the difficulty in designing a new engine or any other complex system perfect out of the box.
Dave
I was given a copy of the paper when I started my career as a railway mechanical engineer. I've read it and re-read it many times.
One thing that struck me much later was the comment that the 201A was limited by requirements from the US Navy. When I checked, the USN used the 201A in only one submarine, and later relied on Cleveland built engines that shared some 567 features. But the funding from the USN was probably vital in getting the engine built in a reasonable time....
The other things that stood out were the attention to detail in all areas, and the ability to recognise unexpected results (such as the good performance of cast iron pistons using only basic grey cast iron rather than the proposed special alloy.)
This guy has a bunch of videos of load tests on various locomotives. The computer screens on newer units show the engine rpm and horsepower output in each throttle notch.
https://www.youtube.com/user/SnowX51/videos
The SD70M-2 putting out over 4600 HP at 950 rpm impressed me, though that may have been total brake horsepower instead of traction output (or perhaps a bad sensor).
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
In the very early days, there were some strange variants. Some Baldwins used pneumatic controls for the governor and some locomotives (switchers, mostly) had straight mechanical throttles where the control stand lever moved against the flyball governor spring directly giving "infinite" notches. This stuff is all before my time, so I don't know the details.
The short answer is there are 8 notches because the governor has 3 solenoids it uses to set engine speed from the throttle and that's how many combinations you can make from 3. 2^3 = 8
It actually has a fourth solenoid that is used to signal the govenor to shut down the engine, and that solenoid gets exercised in the speed schedule so it won't get stuck in place.
The Woodward governor - which is the standard on all locomotives, is a flyball governor that controls engine speed. Each solenoid acts against a lopsided triangular plate. The plate pushes against a spring that works against the flyball mechanism. The harder the spring pushes, the faster the flyballs have to spin to balance.
The plate's geometry gives each solenoid a different length from the spring such that solendoid A is worth 1 increment of engine speed, B is worth 4 and C is worth 2. (D, the shutdown solenoid, is worth -2)
So, and engine speed schedule from the solenoid's perspective looks like this:
Low idle AD (added circa 1980 - so there are actually 9 speed settings, and on units with low, low idle, 10)
Idle and Notch 1 no solenoids energized
Notch 2 A
Notch 3 C
Notch 4 AC
Notch 5 BCD (would be B if you didn't have to "exercise" D)
Notch 6 ABCD (would be AB..."...)
Notch 7 BC
Notch 8 ABC
Each of these solenoids is controlled by throttle switches on a cam on the throttle and is assigned a pin on the 27 pin trainline.
Eight became the standard and fit the 27 pin MU scheme. There are all sorts of games that have been played with this speed schedule where the locomotive "interperets" the throttle setting and does something different. GE, in their effort to control smoke, had a 1-5-8 speed schedule where the diesel engine would run in notch 5 engines speed anytime you asked anything over notch one and in notch 8 speed when you were in 6 or above. Later, they had a "skip 3, double 6" speed schedule, and some of the more recent entries have an 8 high and 8 low, where the locomotive makes notch 8 tractive HP, but varies engine speed between notch 7 and 8 depending on conditions - to save a few drops of fuel.
But, they all use the basic Woodward governor with it's four solenoids to control engine speed.
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