I seem to have a distinct memory of seeing an ex- Union Pacific M 10000 positioned, in all places on the lot of a gas station near downtown Cleveland (around E. 40th & St. Clair, to be exact) in the 1950's and early 1960's.
I have no idea how it could possibly have wound up there. Can anyone here offer some information or context?
By 1970, I think, it was gone. But seeing it in Cleveland...at a gas station...sure caused me to rub my eyes and doubt my senses.
The M-10000 in the 50's and 60's? I don't know, I kind of doubt it. If it's the M-10000 I'm thinking of that train was scrapped in December of 1941 when it's prime mover wore out. The UP didn't think it was worth replacing.
Here's the story:
http://www.american-rails.com/m-10000.html
Flintlock76If it's the M-10000 I'm thinking of that train was scrapped in December of 1941 when its prime mover wore out.
As I remember the story, the train -- in fact, all the early UP aluminum Streamliners -- got scrapped for aluminum for warplanes. And retired more for being too small than because anything mechanical was wrong with them...
Do I not dimly remember a thread on one of these forums a few years ago about either a replica or an advertising sign featuring a version of one of these trains?
Overmod Flintlock76 If it's the M-10000 I'm thinking of that train was scrapped in December of 1941 when its prime mover wore out. As I remember the story, the train -- all the early UP aluminum Streamliners -- got scrapped for aluminum for warplanes. And retired more for being too small than because anything mechanical was wrong with them...
Flintlock76 If it's the M-10000 I'm thinking of that train was scrapped in December of 1941 when its prime mover wore out.
As I remember the story, the train -- all the early UP aluminum Streamliners -- got scrapped for aluminum for warplanes. And retired more for being too small than because anything mechanical was wrong with them...
That is my recollection as well.
Being made of stainless steel, the Zephyrs survived.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
What is gasoline distillate? A type of gasoline? Less refined, more refined?
Distillate is a heavier grade of fuel than gasoline, but not suitable for use in a diesel engine. Distillate engines were spark-ignited, often with multiple plugs in each cylinder in order to properly ignite this fuel. The plugs required cleaning or replacement more frequently than those in a gasoline engine, due to soot/sludge accumulation from the heavier fuel.
https://utahrails.net/up/distillate.php
On a related note, many spark ignited farm tractor engines were designed to run on kerosene, which was considerably cheaper than gasolene. The engines would be started on gasolene and switched over to kerosene after warming up. Many of the early WW1 submarines also ran on kerosene, more for not having the flammable vapor problems with gasolene - fires on submarines are not fun...
NKP guy I seem to have a distinct memory of seeing an ex- Union Pacific M 10000 positioned, in all places on the lot of a gas station near downtown Cleveland
Do you think there is any chance that it may have instead been one of the Van Sweringen's rapid transit cars?
Link
Convicted OneDo you think there is any chance that it may have instead been one of the Van Sweringen's rapid transit cars?
Having been raised in the Heights area of Cleveland I am as familiar as possible with the equipment used on the SHRT Lines. My very first fantrip in 1964 was riding their 1200-series Kuhlman center entrance car #12 (Cleve. Rys. #1212). The PCC's were still operating when I saw that parked locomotive, so I can say with certainty that the vehicle in question was not a streetcar of any sort.
I remember that it had that bulbous grill on the front, below the windows. It had been repainted from its original colors into an innocuous white, I think.
No, it was a gen-u-ine diesel locomotive of the art deco period and from Out West. It was not a Burlington Zephyr; it looked like the UP 10000 or something similar. But how it came to repose for a few years in Cleveland is a story that will be harder to discover.
Thanks for your answer, CO.
NKP guy No, it was a gen-u-ine diesel locomotive of the art deco period and from Out West. It was not a Burlington Zephyr; it looked like the UP 10000 or something similar. But how it came to repose for a few years in Cleveland is a story that will be harder to discover.
Well, the first 3 units in the series were scrapped in time for the war as mentioned earlier. The second series M10003 thru M10006 operated until 1953 and reportedly were sold for scrap, while a very similar unit was built for Illinois Central, operated as the "Green Diamond" before falling into lesser service before ultimately being scrapped in 1950.
(speculation) while it seems a safe bet that the units scrapped prior to 1945 did find their way into the war effort, there may be a distinction worth mentioning for the later units between the concepts of "sold as scrap" versus "cut up for scrap".
It's entirely possible that one of the later units was sold for scrap, and then just sat as a curio in someone's lot until meeting it's ultimate fate. Perhaps there is some connection through the Winton powerplant? Winton was a Cleveland company, was it not?
Link to useful info
NKP guyNo, it was a gen-u-ine diesel locomotive of the art deco period and from Out West.
This is beginning to get more interesting. None of the UP 'bulbous-nose' cars were locomotives; they were parts of articulated trains. Same for the tomato worm. By the time you get to anything that would be 'separable' as a locomotive it would be the City of Denver style -- and that would be memorable in a completely different way.
I don't suppose on reflection you remember the size, or the number of trucks, or other detail about it? I'm still thinking 'advertising replica' rather than actual, functioning locomotive equipment...
Just another random thought. We used to have a somewhat eccentric club here that was part of a trade union. And they maintained about a 3/5 scale replica of a steam locomotive, that in actuality was a parade float. Sat in a parking lot across the street from my doctor's office for years. Presumably they would take this thing out for display at various events, but to tell you the truth I cannot remember ever seeing it budge....for years and years, until one day it was gone.
Any possibility this unit in Cleveland might have been a parade float, or other "for fun" mock up?
Along those lines, I believe I've read about Union Pacific having miniature display trains back in the day. I bet it's in an article at Don Strack's site, Utah Rails.
Edit: Didn't take long to find it. Towards the end of the article is what's possibly pertinent to this topic.
https://utahrails.net/up/up-mini-train.php
It's a long shot, but any chance it may not have been full size, NKP guy? These sound like reasonably large miniatures according to the article. If you perhaps didn't get up close to it, maybe you saw the realistic looking M-10000 replica mentioned in that article?
I ask just in case you were young child when you saw this, since we all know our memories of when we were very young aren't always fully accurate.
There's a model train store up the road from me that has a steam switch engine out front. Took me quite a few drives by to realize it's fake, built by skilled welders and fabricators. Looks full-size to me. On close inspection it's clearly not real, but it's quite impressive.
My thanks to all who've replied.
I'm in the process of waiting to hear back from a few trusted sources in railfandom and Cleveland history. I'll be sure to post here what I learn from them.
Mr. Ames, I'm pretty sure it wasn't a mock-up made by someone. It looked exactly like what I imagined such an engine to look like from the photos I saw.
Yes, Winton was a noted Cleveland manufacturer of engines and such. There might be a Winton connection here, after all. Maybe a prototype made for Winton's use in development? Or maybe someone had bought it for scrap and then changed his mind? I know it's a long shot.
I saw this phantom about half a dozen times between about 1959 and 1966, when I was 11 to 18 years old. Being acutely aware of trains from my youngest days, I had reasonable railfan chops early. That's why this locomotive grabbed my attention: Even with five railroads in town I never saw anything like this in Cleveland; but I did recognize it from photos I'd seen as being from Out West.
This ain't easy to research, but it's worth my looking further into it.
NKP guyOr maybe someone had bought it for scrap and then changed his mind? I know it's a long shot.
I've known people who although officially were "scrappers" ,...yet over the years managed to from time to time get ahold of really unique items that they just couldn't find the heart to cut up. So there they would sit, for years. Tucked over in the corner of the lot, and just left to the elements.
Trying to make sense of it, I used to wonder if they were hoping for some really long shot that one day some other party trying to restore a "whatever" might come along and pay them 10 times scrap value for parts needed in their restoration. Even though it appeared far more likely that the one sitting in front of me was the last one on the face of the earth.
And even if the latter was the case, is there anything wrong with someone holding onto a museum piece, if doing so gives them a sense of enjoyment?
Convicted OneI've known people who although officially were "scrappers" ,...yet over the years managed to from time to time get ahold of really unique items that they just couldn't find the heart to cut up. So there they would sit, for years. Tucked over in the corner of the lot, and just left to the elements.
A lot of Civil War vintage cannon surfaced from scrapyards around the time of the Centennial just for that reason.
Some Civil War re-enactors were still finding them there as late as the 1970's, but I don't know what they were paying for them. Needless to say don't bother looking for them in scrapyards now!
"Hoarding" is a sickness, I finally concluded.
I had a boss who was a compulsive collector, he'd be out on his truck making a business related trip, and just happen upon some wretched piece of antiquity that he just couldn't pass up, so he'd fetch it in his truck, bring it to the shop, and set it right where it was in everybody's way
Time and time after time he would do this, each aquisition reducing the available floor area for work related things we were doing that were actually paying the bills.
We all grew quite frustrated with his "packratting" of oddities. He used to be quite proud of some of the "treasure" he would drag in. And he would often boast "You know what I told the guys selling this stuff?"
To which I usually replied "Hey, I'll haul all this junk away free if you let me keep it?"
Convicted OneTrying to make sense of it, I used to wonder if they were hoping for some really long shot that one day some other party trying to restore a "whatever" might come along and pay them 10 times scrap value for parts needed in their restoration.
Dick Jensen and Glenn Campbell come to mind. One an unhappy ending, the other really nearly one.
Overmod He had all sorts of classic-car parts he would sell... if you paid his asking price first, sight unseen, take it or leave it.
You can see some cool things "stranded" in places like these. Every once in a great while the guy I worked for would sell one of his museum pieces, and then he would strut around all barrel chested, acting vindicated for all the clutter he forced us to endure in the mean time.
Free Junk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3Q89pd0q98
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Overmod NKP guy No, it was a gen-u-ine diesel locomotive of the art deco period and from Out West. This is beginning to get more interesting. None of the UP 'bulbous-nose' cars were locomotives; they were parts of articulated trains. Same for the tomato worm. By the time you get to anything that would be 'separable' as a locomotive it would be the City of Denver style -- and that would be memorable in a completely different way. I don't suppose on reflection you remember the size, or the number of trucks, or other detail about it? I'm still thinking 'advertising replica' rather than actual, functioning locomotive equipment...
NKP guy No, it was a gen-u-ine diesel locomotive of the art deco period and from Out West.
Maybe something like the IC-121?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_Central_121
ORNHOOMaybe something like the IC-121?
That's the tomato worm I mentioned previously. That was one of my favorite trains when I was in my teens.
That's the tomato worm I mentioned previously... I must have remembered the wrong kind of worm.
That was one of my favorite trains when I was in my teens. I was never able to get a straight answer to when and where it was actually cut up (although I suspect the information is well-known to IC fans) and it would be interesting to know it survived as late as reported.
ORNHOOMaybe something like the IC-121? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_Central_121
ORNHOO: By golly, I think the locomotive you suggest is almost certainly the beast in question. The on-top headlight is just as I remember it and the bulbous grill looks familiar, too.
The Wikipedia article says it was sold for scrap in 1950, so it's possible it made its way to Cleveland and was there when I first saw it about 1959.
This seems a much more plausible explanation of what I saw than it being the M 10000.
A tip of the hat to you, ORNHOO!
Downey (Chicago and the Illinois Central Railroad) says the train set was briefly tried on the IC's Daylight (the counterpart to the Green Diamond service) and then on the Miss-Lou (formerly of Motorailer fame) before being sent for scrap (Downey says 'scrapped' but does not have a date or pictures of actual scrapping) at the Burnside shops in Chicago in 1950. It's anybody's guess if someone bought it there and moved it to Cleveland, though. It would have had some (or all) the cars with it; the whole train was articulated.
A principal reason it survived the war was that it was built in (then-new) copper-bearing Cor-Ten steel and not aluminum. Arguably this might help the carbody survive in 'industrial' air for a good length of time with only poor repainting...
According to Wikipedia, the original Green Diamond went south, and ran between Jackson, Mississippi, and New Orleans as the Miss-Lou.
It replaced the original Miss-Lou, which was a one-car train. which, of course, had a limited capacity. When I lived in Wesson, Mississippi (55 miles south of Jackson) one of the older residents told me that when the train arrived in Wesson in the morning, it was almost full, so it was not easy for anyone there to take it to New Orleans.
Johnny
Tom F posted this picture over at the Railway Preservation News forum, showing M-10000 at the scrapyard.
Does anybody have access to old copies of Extra 2200 South.....The July-August edition has an ICC roster and given their passion for completeness, they'd probably mention it if it hung around for years after being sold
DeggestyWhen I lived in Wesson, Mississippi (55 miles south of Jackson)
I had a family friend who lived in Wesson. He worked for the federal government dealing with railroads.
York1 John
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