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<p></p> <p></p> <div style="margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">From time to time the question arose in different threads if Tier 4 GE and EMD diesel-electric freight locomotives are more or less fuel efficient than their Tier 3 counterparts. I haven’t seen any data that proofs either answer. But I'm interested in answers.<br /></span></div> <h1><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-weight:normal;">Last time it came up in the thread:</span><em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-weight:normal;">News Wire: CN orders 200 locomotives from GE</span></em></span></h1> <div style="margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:'Arial','sans-serif';">I think the fuel efficiency question might be overlooked in that thread. So I created this thread and copied all posts from the above mentioned into this post. <br /><br /></span></div> <div style="margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;"><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:'Arial','sans-serif';">Xxxxxxxx  </span></span></strong><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:'Arial','sans-serif';">Poster and date of post <br /></span></div> <div style="margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;"><em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:'Arial','sans-serif';">Italic</span></em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:'Arial','sans-serif';">: Quote from previous post <br /></span></div> <div style="margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;"><em><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:'Arial','sans-serif';">IIIIIIIII </span></span></em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:'Arial','sans-serif';">Poster of the quoted post</span><strong><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"> <br /><br /></span></strong></div> <div style="margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;"><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';">Posted by </span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"><a title="kgbw49"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:blue;">kgbw49</span></a></span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"> on Saturday, December 23, 2017 12:01 AM </span></span></strong></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';">For the engineering types out there, why do Tier 3 engines continue to be ordered? It seems like any chance they get, the railroads will order a Tier 3 unit rather than a Tier 4 unit. Are Tier 3 units less expensive up front? Or are they more fuel efficient? Or less maintenance-intensive? Please note I am not a proponent for more Tier 4 rather than Tier 3 or some such. I am just wanting to learn more. Thanks in advance for any insight you might be willing to share!<br /><br /></span></div> <div style="margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;"><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';">Posted by </span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"><a title="NorthWest"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:blue;">NorthWest</span></a></span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"> on Saturday, December 23, 2017 12:18 AM </span></span></strong></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">All three: they are cheaper to buy, cheaper to run and cheaper to maintain. They also are more fuel efficient.</span><br /><br /></span></div> <div style="margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;"><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';">Posted by </span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"><a title="VOLKER LANDWEHR"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:blue;">VOLKER LANDWEHR</span></a></span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"> on Saturday, December 23, 2017 10:03 AM </span></span></strong></div> <div style="margin-bottom:5.0pt;line-height:normal;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><em><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;">NorthWest</span></span><br /><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;">They also are more fuel efficient.</span></em></span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Do you have any fuel consumption that show this?</span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;">I tried to find informtion. In an EMD 710 brochure is a chart that the fuel consumption got better from Tier 1 to Tier 3: [url]</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;color:black;">s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/CM20170915-60253-59723[/url]</span></span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:black;">I didn't find a comparison of a EMD 710-T3 and a EMD 1010-T4.</span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:black;">The 1010-T4 is a newly designed four-stroke engine with a completely different auxilliary management, idle measures etc. It is not the engine alone it is the whole package that is relevant.</span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;color:black;">Canadian railroads can buy Tier 3 engines for use in Canada as they don't have the same emission regulation.<br /> Regards, Volker<br /><br /></span></div> <div style="margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;"><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';">Posted by </span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"><a title="caldreamer"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:blue;">caldreamer</span></a></span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"> on Saturday, December 23, 2017 2:19 PM<br /></span></span></strong><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">I do not beleive that tier 3 locomotives are more fuel efficent than tier 4's untill I see the actual fuel use per hour for each notch setting for both engines.</span></div> <div style="margin-bottom:5.0pt;line-height:normal;"><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';">Posted by </span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"><a title="Overmod"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:blue;">Overmod</span></a></span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"> on Saturday, December 23, 2017 2:44 PM</span></span></strong><br /><em><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span style="font-size:12pt;">caldreamer</span></span></span><br /><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">I do not believe that tier 3 locomotives are more fuel efficient than tier 4's untill I see the actual fuel use per hour for each notch setting for both engines.</span> </span></em></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">That would be wise; I'm surprised that </span><em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">s</span></span></em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">omeone like Volker hasn't taken the time yet to compile the data in one place.</span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">The GM two-stroke engine is inherently less fuel-efficient than an engine with a four-stroke cycle, for a number of reasons we've discussed in different threads.  This was brought up in at least two of the discussions on the 265-H engine (whether or not you subscribe to the "1010 evolved out of the 265 design", the 1010 has the same relative combustion efficiency over the 710 family)</span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">One point that needs to be carefully considered is that a Tier 4 design that uses SCR can intentionally use hotter/better combustion in its power stroke, and compensate fully for the additional NO generation by increasing the consumption of the ammonia source if necessary.  This is a reason for the push towards 'liquids consumption' rather than just specific fuel consumption in determining a fair measure of 'fuel use' economically.</span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Now, I believe the existing 'practical' (meaning 'those railroads will buy') Tier 4 <em>freight </em>locomotives are still relying on relatively carefully-managed EGR to meet standards; that argues to me that even before discussing a need for active 'particulate filter regeneration' the actual sfc will be at least slightly higher for the same engine output provided by an equivalent Tier 3 compliant unit.  But I will wait for detailed data.<br /><br /></span></div> <div style="margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;"><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';">Posted by </span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"><a title="VOLKER LANDWEHR"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:blue;">VOLKER LANDWEHR</span></a></span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"> on Saturday, December 23, 2017 4:13 PM </span></span></strong></div> <div style="margin-bottom:5.0pt;line-height:normal;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><em><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;">Overmod</span></span><br /><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;">That would be wise; I'm surprised someone like Volker hasn't taken the time yet to compile the data in one place.</span></em></span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span lang="EN-US">I would have if had more data than linked above. That is the reason I asked. So someone else hopefully does the legwork.</span><a title=""View larger (opens in a new window)" t "><span style="color:blue;text-decoration:none;"><img alt="Wink" width="19" height="19" border="0" /></span></a></span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">I doubt myself that freight Tier 4 locomotives are less fuel efficient. That the EGR equipped Tier 4 locomotives don't need diesel particulate filters shows that they have a completer combustion needing less fuel for the same output.<br /> Regards, Volker<br /><br /></span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">Edit: Perhaps we should create a separate thread. Here it might get lost.<br /><br /></span></div> <div style="margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;"><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';">Posted by </span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"><a title="NorthWest"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:blue;">NorthWest</span></a></span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"> on Saturday, December 23, 2017 5:30 PM </span></span></strong></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">I have no information on the EMDs, and as the prime mover is different I should have restricted my comments to the GEs. EGR has traditionally reduced fuel economy somewhat (ballpark <10%) between otherwise similar model runs. I don't know if that is the case here, but I suspect the efforts to reduce NOx output without SCR have reduced fuel efficiency.<br /><br /></span></div> <div style="margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;">Posted by </span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span style="font-size:12pt;"><a title="Overmod"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:blue;">Overmod</span></a></span></span></strong></span><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"> on Sunday, December 24, 2017 4:28 PM</span> </span></span></strong></div> <div style="margin-bottom:5.0pt;line-height:normal;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><em><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US">VOLKER LANDWEHR</span></span><br /><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;">Edit: Perhaps we should create a separate thread. Here it might get lost.</span></em></span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">I concur ... do it!</span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">We can then recapitulate the physics and engineering briefly there so the discussion stays on proper tech focus.<br /><br /></span></div> <div style="margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;"><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';">Posted by </span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"><a title="kgbw49"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:blue;">kgbw49</span></a></span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"> on Sunday, December 24, 2017 4:51 PM </span></span></strong></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">I am glad I asked the question! And thank you all for the excellent information - I have learned a lot already! Much appreciated!<br /><br /></span></div> <div style="margin-bottom:.0001pt;line-height:normal;"><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';">Posted by </span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"><a title="samfp1943"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:blue;">samfp1943</span></a></span></span></strong><strong><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"> on Monday, December 25, 2017 3:12 AM </span></span></strong></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><em><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;">VOLKER LANDWEHR</span></span><br /><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;">I  would have if had more data than linked above. That is the reason I asked. So someone else hopefully does the legwork.</span></em></span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;">I doubt myself that freight Tier 4 locomotives are less fuel efficient. That the EGR equipped Tier 4 locomotives don't need diesel particulate filters shows that they have a completer combustion needing less fuel for the same output.<br /> Regards, Volker</span></em></span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;">Edit: Perhaps we should create a separate thread. Here it might get lost.</span></em></span></div> <p><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><em><span style="text-decoration:underline;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;">Overmod<br /></span></span></em><em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;">That would be wise; I'm surprised someone like Volker hasn't taken the time yet to compile the data in one place.</span></em><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;"> </span></span></p> <div style="margin-bottom:5.0pt;line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';"> </span><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;">A short SEARCH of "Fuel Consumption on General Electric Tier 4 Locomotives?"  </span><span style="font-size:12pt;">Turned up the following linked site:</span> </span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">@  [url]https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-us/the-csx-advantage/fuel-efficiency/?mobileFormat=true[/url]</span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">This is information from a CSX Document titled: "Fuel Efficiency"  .</span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">A further Search on "EMD Tier 4 Locomotive performance" turned up a number of sites, but this linked "Railway Age " seemed to offer some information(?)</span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;">Linked @</span><span style="font-size:12pt;"><a href="http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/mechanical/locomotives/engines-of-change.html"><span lang="EN-US" style="color:blue;">  http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/mechanical/locomotives/engines-of-change.html</span></a></span></span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;">FTA:"...• EMD’s Tier 4 freight locomotive, the SD70ACe-T4, is powered by an all-new, 4,400-traction-hp, 12-cylinder, four-stroke EMD-developed 1010 diesel engine. EMD attained Tier 4 without the use of urea as an after-treatment. The 1010 is a radical departure from EMD’s traditional two-stroke engine. It is not based on a Caterpillar engine, though, according to Progress Rail President and CEO Billy Ainsworth, it “combines the engineering expertise of Progress Rail, Electro-Motive and Caterpillar.” EMD’s other Tier 4 offering, the F125 Spirit high-speed passenger locomotive, utilizes a 4,700-hp Caterpillar C175-20 engine..."</span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;">Hope this will shed some light on this topic! </span></span></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><strong><span style="font-size:24.0pt;font-family:'Times New Roman','serif';">Sam</span></strong></div> <div style="line-height:normal;"><span style="font-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">I hope I got it right and didn't forget something important.<br />I look for input from people who might have overlooked the other thread.</span></div> <div><span lang="EN-US">Regards, Volker </span></div>
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