Entropy zugmann ATSFGuy Is an SD70M better than an SD70ACe? Yes. Any explanation?
zugmann ATSFGuy Is an SD70M better than an SD70ACe? Yes.
ATSFGuy Is an SD70M better than an SD70ACe?
Is an SD70M better than an SD70ACe?
Yes.
Any explanation?
Not much of one. I just like running them better. Many have analog gauges (none of that computer screen crap), older style air brake set-up, seem to respond quicker to throttle inputs, and the GM models just have better fit and finish than the post-GM. Fewer rattles, better materials, etc. I can't speak to the mechanics of them, just that they are more of an old-school locomotive. Last of their breed.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
NorthWest What is the status of the retired unit? I think there are still the ex-BHP SD70ACes of similar vintage still at Muncie.
What is the status of the retired unit? I think there are still the ex-BHP SD70ACes of similar vintage still at Muncie.
One thing you need to understand, the BHP units are equipped differently from anything used on a North American Class 1 railroad. This makes using them in NA a hard fit for most, or alot of rework.
For example they have 220VAC 50hz outlets, dual air conditioners, no heaters, drains arn't heated, no awnings. The list goes on.
NorthWest Wow. A lot of steam did better than that!
Wow. A lot of steam did better than that!
If you take UP for example you will see availability 96% GE and EMD. Both come within a percetage of each other, neither stands out.
"Wow, a lot of steam did better than that!"
Hmmm, now what's that tell you? Time to turn the clock back?
SaturnaliaWhat I've heard is that the computer interface is different and there may be some different controls in the electrical cabinet which are no longer supported. It makes them full re-wire candidates, which is something more akin to Altoona than to Huntington these days.
Interesting. Their small class size works against them as well.
Saturnalia For railroads, which keep track of performance metrics, the SD70ACes on CSX are below 50% availability...akin to absolute garbage.
NorthWest Saturnalia 4. The SD60Is are also rumored to be on the chopping block because they've got old electonic tech which is no longer supported, and conversion isn't considered a cost-fesible option. I wonder if this is actually the isolated cab... did they really have greatly different equipment from the CR SD60Ms from about the same time? EMD isolated cabs from that era haven't aged particularly well when it comes to the rubber bushings that hold the cab to the frame. What is the status of the retired unit? I think there are still the ex-BHP SD70ACes of similar vintage still at Muncie.
Saturnalia 4. The SD60Is are also rumored to be on the chopping block because they've got old electonic tech which is no longer supported, and conversion isn't considered a cost-fesible option.
I wonder if this is actually the isolated cab... did they really have greatly different equipment from the CR SD60Ms from about the same time? EMD isolated cabs from that era haven't aged particularly well when it comes to the rubber bushings that hold the cab to the frame.
What I've heard is that the computer interface is different and there may be some different controls in the electrical cabinet which are no longer supported. It makes them full re-wire candidates, which is something more akin to Altoona than to Huntington these days.
The retired SD70ACe is still on property last we heard. It was removed from the roster for a grounded alternator, the same malady as several of the other SD70ACe currently in storage.
For railroads, which keep track of performance metrics, the SD70ACes on CSX are below 50% availability...akin to absolute garbage.
n012944 Saturnalia keep in mind, every 4-axle unit on CSX is an EMD now! Almost, but not quite.
Saturnalia keep in mind, every 4-axle unit on CSX is an EMD now!
keep in mind, every 4-axle unit on CSX is an EMD now!
Almost, but not quite.
D'oh! Of course I knew that. There are 26 Gensets technically on the CSX roster. You could also argue for or against the Road Slugs. I guess you *could* consider them EMDs because of the frame. In any case, the way my spreadsheet is kept, they're tallied by builder or rebuilder, so the Slugs aren't EMDs, either.
Glad you caught me as I spun myself in a grandiouse comment!
BaltACDGenSet - the most detested, poorest excuse for a locomotive that has yet to be devised - hated by crews forced to use them.
Had some of them years ago on a remote job. When they were running, they weren't completely terrible (still better than being stuck with a -9), but that was the thing. When they were running.
A couple times I went to try and start it, and all I could get out of it was the little RJCorman train dancing across the info display screen in the cab. Luckily we didn't buy too many of them, and I think all of them are now semi-retired / confined to shop duty. I did enjoy having what sounded like a tractor pulling the train, though. Ones I had featured some Deutz engines (some of which ran once in a while), I believe.
One, 1303, looks like this now:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/milwaukeebeernut/32125052122/
Not sure what the story is, but it appears to have been like that since at least last August.
GenSet - the most detested, poorest excuse for a locomotive that has yet to be devised - hated by crews forced to use them.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
An "expensive model collector"
Saturnalia4. The SD60Is are also rumored to be on the chopping block because they've got old electonic tech which is no longer supported, and conversion isn't considered a cost-fesible option.
Good to have you on this forum. I've been apreciating your CSX fleet updates elsewhere.
Leo_Ames stated "...20 non-standard oddballs in a fleet of over 4,000 units, no matter how well they perform, are often an attractive target of elimination well before their time..." Seems to be a fairly 'safe' statement to make! It would make sense for CSX to dump 20 'orphan units as soon as they had extracted all the 'value' of those units in their system. They would seem to be good foder for NS and their locomotive rebuilding machine ,called Altoona. NS sure seems happy with their SD70AACe's.
According to the excelent website maintained by Cris R. Toth @ http://www.nsdash9.com/rosters/1000.html "NS Locomotive Roster'
NS rosters aproximately 176 SD70ACe's of which 10 are part of the NS Heritage Fleet (#s in 1000/1174 ) also Chris notes that NS has rebuilt a number of EMD SD90MACs into SD70ACU's. The assumption would seem to be that NS is 'happy' with the SD70 style EMD.. After they have made 'Their Own"\' modifications.
It would seem that in the case of CSX and their SD70's: "..One man's meat, is another's belly ache..."
DOUG KNAPP The SD70MAC is not too bad in both generations but the SD70ACe is a bad experience to operate and maintain. They were designed by Rube Goldberg and slapped together by the Three Stooges.
Can you elaborate on this?
We know early ACe's were loud and rougher ride, these units were non isolated cabs and non radial trucks. Beyond that, I don't know how that translates into the build quality you suggest.
Leo_Ames ATSFGuy To me, The SD70ACe looks very advanced, What were some of the problems with them? Loud cabs seem to be a favorite issue of contention for what I imagine will someday be known as phase 1 SD70ACe's. Always seems to get mentioned before anything else at forums when folks that say they work at CSX discuss these units. Even if they were better loved, there are only 19 of them after the retirement and sale of one of them. CSX wasn't impressed enough about some aspect of them to order more. 20 non-standard oddballs in a fleet of over 4,000 units, no matter how well they perform, are often an attractive target of elimination well before their time.
ATSFGuy To me, The SD70ACe looks very advanced, What were some of the problems with them?
Loud cabs seem to be a favorite issue of contention for what I imagine will someday be known as phase 1 SD70ACe's. Always seems to get mentioned before anything else at forums when folks that say they work at CSX discuss these units.
Even if they were better loved, there are only 19 of them after the retirement and sale of one of them. CSX wasn't impressed enough about some aspect of them to order more.
20 non-standard oddballs in a fleet of over 4,000 units, no matter how well they perform, are often an attractive target of elimination well before their time.
As mentioned piecemeal above, these CSX SD70ACe units were the actual pre-production units, bound to have bundles of problems. Not only that, but they also didn't get the best attention in shaking out those issues.
Running through the other big EMDs on the CSX here for a minute, we find:
1. The SD80MACs traded to NS. CSX would rather have SD40-2s than 12 big EMDs they don't really care for. Altoona loves them though, I'm sure.
2. The SD70MACs are fine units, they'll be around a good while yet.
3. The SD70Ms are oddballs on the roster, confined to Florida for the most part. There is noise that these units aren't provisined for PTC, either.
4. The SD60Is are also rumored to be on the chopping block because they've got old electonic tech which is no longer supported, and conversion isn't considered a cost-fesible option.
5. The SD60Ms and SD60s, aside from being oddballs, don't seem to have any major marks against them.
6. The SD50-2s are interesting, as they're all downrated via computer to essentially SD40-2s, making 3000hp - that's actually what the -2 means in this context on CSX. There was a small batch of them upgraded to SD50-3s, but the project has been dormant for years.
FWIW, my hunch is that the SD70ACe will be sold off to somebody - somebody (maybe NS or EMD) will take them for remanufacture or part-out. I think the SD60I and SD70M are the next EMDs to go wide-scale. That and there's noise that the 7300-series ex-Con C40-8Ws are next on the GE block.
In the Geep world, well CSX needs them, so they won't be ditching much if any 4-axle power - keep in mind, every 4-axle unit on CSX is an EMD now!
SD60 M & SD60I are wonderful locomotives and CSX still uses both. They are receiving PTC and have cab signal. The SD70MAC is not too bad in both generations but the SD70ACe is a bad experience to operate and maintain. They were designed by Rube Goldberg and slapped together by the Three Stooges. 20 units was 20 too many. I know CSX is testing Cat's tier 4 ACe and I hope the results are better. EMD locos have always been more durable and longer lasting than GEs but the first ACe units were a far cry from the quality of the SD40-2 units of which there are still many on the CSX roster.
Can't compare them Apples to Apples. Ones DC ones AC.
In terms of cost of ownership the SD70M is good with its mechanical injectors, conventional TM blower/aux gen, and Tier 0/1 engine. TE 163,000lbs (starting).
SD70ACe has more tractive effort, almost 200,000lbs (starting) ; and can better handle wheel slip, both largely in part due to AC traction.
ACe is better in heavy haul where 70M would do well in intermodal and mixed freight.
The trend in railroading is moving toward AC traction with it's lower maintenance, and higher TE's, translates into a 4 DC - 3 AC unit swap for a class 1.
In a cost comparison 3 AC units may cost what 4 DC units cost, however it's still 12/16 less cylinders to maintain and less fuel used over the long run.
Well, it seems that some of the first CSX locomotives to be mothballed when EHH takes over have been identified.
Remember that the first half of production of the SD70ACe was while EMD was under ownership of Greenbriar. I would safely say there is a huge difference between the Greenbriar SD70ACe and the Caterpillar SD70ACe (takeover was 2010). I am told that the SD70ACe got a complete rebuff, which is why CAT elected to build all new demos, and that the SD70ACes built 2012 and after were much better. Probably that change greatly improved the EMD reputation and possibly saved the SD70ACe line in general.
The early SD70ACes had enough cab noise that BNSF banned them from leading after union complaints. They also had the usual new-engine-model teething issues that were eventually resolved. They are still known for extremely rough riding however, and there are tons of stories of them shaking their doors open.
ATSFGuyTo me, The SD70ACe looks very advanced, What were some of the problems with them?
Most if not all of the CSX SD70MAC's went through overhaul at PRL Mayfield, KY. The last units were completed recently.
Are SD60M's and SD70MAC's still in service or have they been purged?
To me, The SD70ACe looks very advanced, What were some of the problems with them?
In the Chicago area, the road power is dominated by GE's with some EMD's making an appearance. Yard and transfer is a little different, a couple of gensets work at Barr and various EMD's handle yard and transfer duties, including GP15T's and the occasional slug set. SD40-3's with their flat cabs are also starting to turn up.
bcrnfan The GE's are boring and all look alike anymore.
The GE's are boring and all look alike anymore.
I haven't seen any KCS or Ferromex units around here Balt, but you never know do you?
Railfans in other parts of the country may have better luck.
Are they doing the same to their SD70MACs or not? And what's CSX gonna do with the ACEs they still have? Retire them like the other ones or just store them for a long time?
For what variety CSX might lack at the head of intermodals and such, they make up for it with their older EMD's that have outlasted the last 4 axle GE's in the fleet (Not to mention all U-Boats and Dash 7's).
More variety there than in a long time thanks to several rebuild programs that have been underway in recent years, upgrading classics for another 15-20 years of service. Not to mention some old friends that remain providing useful service as road slugs and look much as they did when first outshopped from La Grange back in the 1960's.
Look away from the priority trains and I think CSX is pretty interesting from a locomotive perspective.
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