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120 MPH T1

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, January 4, 2017 10:51 PM

Great thread. Not much brings out the photos, superb comments and total fascination as the T1's do. 

So mysterious, so imaginative, so fast and powerful and lost to us entirely before we could really understand it, grasp it, know it ..vanished like a dream...and the stories and lore keep coming. A future lost to us, never revealed. 

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Posted by timz on Wednesday, January 4, 2017 7:34 PM

BigJim
if the train was timetabled, it cannot leave a station before the time stated.

Most rulebooks said that, but PRR and I think NY Central made an exception for Rule 251 territory (or some such thing). Passenger trains scheduled to receive traffic had to respect station departure times-- aside from that, the times in the timetable were just a guide.

(That exception is in the 1947 PRR rulebook-- it's not in the 1925.)

In any case, if it doesn't pick up passengers they could run it extra if they wanted to run ahead of its schedule.

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, January 4, 2017 6:09 PM

BigJim
The point is, if the train was timetabled, it cannot leave a station before the time stated.

If authorized by special instructions it can.  There is more to a timetable than schedule times.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by RME on Wednesday, January 4, 2017 5:09 PM

Dr D
Had a chance to visit NYC 3001 4-8-2 Mohawk in Elkhart, Indiana this holiday season. Specifically to examine the Valve Pilot Indicator speedometer that survives on this locomotive. This highly accurate speedometer was standard equipment on most of the Central steam locomotives of the World War II vintage. The speedometer of NYC 3001 reads out to 120 mph. This would seem to challenge your post indicating that Pennsylvania Railroad would not have equipped the T1 Duplex 4-4-4-4 with a speedometer greater than 100 mph and the S1 Turbine 6-8-6 locomotive with a speedometer greater than 110 mph.

Except that we have no evidence of a speedometer design for the T1 that reads higher.  (And it's highly unlikely that the S1 received a new, faster speedometer than it was given as a high-speed experimental locomotive...)  [As a note - the S1 was the 6-4-4-6 duplex; the S2 was the turbine]

It would be interesting to see whether the T1a was fitted with Valve Pilot using a speed reference independent of the Jones-Motrola it was built with (the speed reference for the Valve Pilot's "computer" being taken from a different axle than the 'native' T1 system used),  If the device as used on PRR actually had a dial display, it would be interesting to see if it read up to 120mph as 3001's does, or indeed if 120mph is a "standard" for some locomotives that integrate speed recording with Valve Pilot. 

Frisco 1351 has a postwar installation of Valve Pilot but I don't recall it having a speedometer, just the 'needle matching' that would have been used at any part of operation.  I will have to sneak up and check.

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Posted by BigJim on Wednesday, January 4, 2017 5:04 PM

The point is, if the train was timetabled, it cannot leave a station before the time stated.

.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, January 4, 2017 1:52 PM

Rode  the Trailblazer westbound late June 1952.  Diesel power after Harrisburg.  No pickup stops west of Fort Wayne, only discharge,  Arrived in Chicago 15 minutes ahead of schedule.   Similarlly only pickup stops east of Harrisburg, no discharge.  Comfortable, smooth ride.  Only El Cap highlevel coaches better.

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, January 4, 2017 11:14 AM

BigJim
Dr D

I am going to question this validity of that statement. Were there any scheduled timetable stops anywhere along the way between Crestline and Chicago? If so, the train could not leave a station, or pass any timetabled point, before the scheduled departure time. Therefore, the train could make up time being late into a station, but the only way that it could run early into Chicago was between Chicago and the last stop where it would have left that station on time.

Speculation - 14 coaches might equal the Trailblazer, the PRR's 'through' coach streamliner.  Such streamliners discouraged 'local' pick up stops for passengers, relegating them to other local trains that specialized in picking up passengers at every tank town and milk stop.  As such, it may have been authorized to operate in advance of it's scheduled times - especially since it was not operating over single track, timetable and train order territory from Harrisburg to Chicago.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by BigJim on Wednesday, January 4, 2017 10:37 AM

Dr D
Engine 6110 made the first run from Harrisburg to Chicago with 14 coaches weighing 1000 tons.  From Crestline, Ohio to Fort Wayne, Indiana ran 20 minutes ahead of schedule the run completed to Chicago an additional 13 minutes ahead of schedule - for a total of 33 minutes ahead of schedule.  Speed was consistantly in neighborhood of 100 miles per hour. 


I am going to question this validity of that statement. Were there any scheduled timetable stops anywhere along the way between Crestline and Chicago? If so, the train could not leave a station, or pass any timetabled point, before the scheduled departure time. Therefore, the train could make up time being late into a station, but the only way that it could run early into Chicago was between Chicago and the last stop where it would have left that station on time.

.

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Posted by NorthWest on Sunday, January 1, 2017 10:20 PM

I've always greatly preferred the styling of the S1 to the T1 and feel that cleaned up a bit it would have made for a sleek locomotive if applied to a more conventional 4-8-4 (which was probably more what the PRR needed anyway). Just peel back the side skirt to show more of those huge drivers, eliminate the strange fin just under the nose and clean up the pilot and you've got a very pretty locomotive.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, January 1, 2017 9:19 PM

Well yes, it HAS been suggested that a replica of the S1 would be a lot more, well let's say "cool," tan a replica of the T1, but remember an S1 replica would have the same problem the original had.  Not that it didn't perform well, it performed beautifully.  The problem was it was too damn big!

Too big for any of Pennsy's turntables, it had to be turned on wyes, and even then it had to be handled with kid gloves or it would derail.  And sometimes it derailed even with kid glove treatment.  In a way, it was a locomotive equivalent of a boat built in the backyard that can't get out past the house and to the street.

Too bad, it was a good performer otherwise.  Anyway, the size of it was the reason it was the only one built.  Too bad it wasn't saved just the same.

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Posted by Dr D on Sunday, January 1, 2017 8:03 PM

RME,

Had a chance to visit NYC 3001 4-8-2 Mohawk in Elkhart, Indiana this holliday season.  Specifically to examine the Valve Pilot Indicator speedometer that survives on this locomotive.  This highly accurate speedometer was standard equipment on most of the Central steam locomotives of the World War II vintage.  The speedometer of NYC 3001 reads out to 120 mph.

This would seem to challenge your post indicating that Pennsylvania Railroad would not have equipped the T1 Duplex 4-4-4-4 with a speedometer greater than 100 mph and the S1 Turbine 6-8-6 locomotive with a speedometer greater than 110 mph.

---------------------

Examination of PENNSY POWER by Alvin Staufer - page 220 indicates the styling of the T1 Duplex came in three forms - with a fourth modified type designated the T1a.

Type 1 Experimental 1942 T1 - These were locomotives 6110 and 6111 built experimentally by Baldwin Locomotive works in April 1942.  6111 being the only duplex which was equipped with a low speed booster engine.  Styling was by Raymond Loewy.  These engines were the brain child of famous Baldwin engineer Ralph P. Johnson who also published in 1942 his famous work on steam locomotive engineering THE STEAM LOCOMOTIVE.

Loewy's styling of these two engines was different than the engines that were to follow - they featured a chisel shaped front boiler cowling which came almost to a point - and then tapered far back to the frame location of the first cylinder crossheads.  This early design further included a a large front deck appliance cowling with "port hole trim" and no running board ladders.  A low mount keystone number board was featured on the lower cowl.

Type 2 Baldwin Production 1946 T1 - This design included a newer boiler front cowl design with a now "blunt prow" that tapered back the chisel shape only to the frame location of the first axle of the front truck.  I believe this would have allowed the standard smoke box front course shape to be completly round at the location of the hidden inside boiler front. 

This "type 2 production 1946 T1" design retained the same large front deck appliance cowling with its "port hole trim" of the "type 1 experimental 1942" engines.

Type 3 Altoona Production 1946 T1 - This featured the same "blunt prow" boiler front modifcations of the "Type 2 production 1946 T1" design, but  now also included changes to a new "narrow lower appliance cowling" which then allowed running board ladders to equip the locomotive front ends - now sans the stylish "port hole trim" design. 

The "low mount" keystone engine number board was then moved up to just below the headlight on the blunt boiler front cowling of the locomotive.  Further changes included a reduction of the streamline side skirting attached to the locomotive side running boards.

----------------------   

Type 4 Altoona T1a - These changes required a re-designation of the type T1 to T1a classification for only one locomotive T1 5547.  The "type 4 changes" came about when certain locomotive maintaince problems lead to a rethinking some of the T1's initial features.  Opportunity for these needed changes were first considered with the rebuilding of T1 engine 5500 which recieved "continuous contour rotary valve equipment" but remained a T1. 

Changes also occured with the rebuilding of T1 engine 5547 which resulted in entirely removing all 4 of the high speed poppet valve gear systems - change significant enough to reclassify engine 5547 as T1a type.  This extensive 5547 rebuild included the manufacture of completely new cylinder steamchests for all four cylinders and refitting with retro style - Walschaert valve gear setups - no small task. 

The T1/T1a rebuild/re-thinking included other changes to all the following rebuilt engines - a new box style classification lights on each side of the boiler front - and the inclusion of a second alternate headlight systenm - also called a "fog light" - to be mounted on the lower appliance cowl - in place of the former "low mounted" keystone number boards.  All engines eventually recieved this treatment.

------------------------------

Staufer notes the following engine power numbers for the T1 Duplex 4-4-4-4 engines which is quite remarkable:

"To fulfill the contract with Baldwin Locomotive Works in the construction of the T1 expermental engines 6110-6111 only 2,980 horsepower was required.  6110 topped this by 38% producing 4100 indicated horsepower at 100 mph.

Compared to Pennsy M1a 4-8-2 design the T1 Duplex produced 46% more drawbar horsepower with but 11% more steam usage per hour.

Test plant data for the T1 Duplex are as follows,

Maximum drawbar horsepower - 6,110 hp

Maximum indicated horsepower - 6,552 hp

Test run at speed of 85.5

Cut off - 25%

Boiler Pressure - 295 psi

Steam chest pressure - 287 psi

Indicated horsepower was 4838 at 38 miles per hour, and was usually above 6000 horsepower at all speeds over 55 miles per hour. 

The T1 Duplex out performed 4 unit 5,400 horsepower diesel engines on the property at all speeds above 26 miles per hour.

Engine 6110 made the first run from Harrisburg to Chicago with 14 coaches weighing 1000 tons.  From Crestline, Ohio to Fort Wayne, Indiana ran 20 minutes ahead of schedule the run completed to Chicago an additional 13 minutes ahead of schedule - for a total of 33 minutes ahead of schedule.  Speed was consistantly in neighborhood of 100 miles per hour. 

With a heavier train of 16 cars T1 Duplex 6110 performed even better running the Fort Wayne, Indiana division speedway at an average speed of 102 mph for 69 continuous miles!"

--------------------

I think you might want to reconsider you opinion about the speed capacity of the Pennsy T1 Duplex 4-4-4-4 locomotive.

LIONEL - Also was the worlds best maker of TOY trains - good for running across the rug - under the dining room table - past the "chase lounge" - or alternately round round the X mas tree - a considerable engineering challenge in its own right - when done correctly!  You must forgive a few historic in-accuracies to accomplish this! 

Indeed the S1 Duplex 6-4-4-6  beauty was truely heroic and considering todays standards of overall size increases in equipment maybe a better choice for reproduction that another less stylish T1 Duplex 4-4-4-4.

Best of the New Year!

Doc       

RME
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Posted by RME on Sunday, January 1, 2017 6:54 PM

I have often wondered how the Lionel people could ever have confused this

with this pudgy thing

 

when writing a children's story about the Torpedo, the fastest and most modern locomotive in the world.  Seems pretty obvious to me that someone got mixed up looking at their historical pictures...

 

Of course, if the object is to sell Thomas/Skaneateles compatible toys, then you need a short tubby 'streamlined'  thing.  But honestly now, which one is the better torpedo?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted by kgbw49 on Sunday, January 1, 2017 5:32 PM

A couple of informational items on the PRR S1...

S1 Builders Photo...

Image result for pennsylvania railroad t-1 steam locomotive pulling trains

S1 at Fort Wayne IN...

Image result for pennsylvania railroad s1 steam locomotive

S1 in service - the size of the people give scale to the enormous size of this locomotive...

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S1 at Fort Wayne IN...

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S1 coaled up and ready for service...

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Posted by Firelock76 on Monday, December 26, 2016 2:26 PM

Great shot of the S1 racing the Hudson!  I wonder who won the race that day?

One thing's for certain, the loser would have said "We weren't racing!"

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Posted by Dr D on Monday, December 26, 2016 1:59 PM

kgbw49 -

Just love that photo of the S1 Duplex and streamline NYC Hudson 5519 heading east out of Chicago - MAGNIFICENT ANACRONISM! so perfectly illustrated!

The Hudson - Superlative machine near the end of its magnificent career with literally thousands and thousands of successful miles pulling revenue passenger trains at high speed and - THE MARQUE of successful passenger engines replete with roller bearing drive - combustion chamber - and gladiator warrior styling!

The Duplex - the largest high speed passenger engine of its type ever built - experimental - non standard - unusable for most purposes for which it was designed - a vision of the future!  And - so very very very fast! 

------------------------

The engineer of the Hudson must have felt totally outclassed in his already famous race horse - the engineer of the Duplex must have felt it was time to overthow the reigning speed queen - finally something faster than a Pacific!

The photo shows the real true size - not the height of the Hudson - and the never ending mystery of the duplex!  

Both engines are moot - the end of a glorious age of what was and what could have been!

-------------

Thanks for the great photo!

Doc

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Posted by kgbw49 on Monday, December 26, 2016 1:05 PM

A few more interesting T-1 photos...

PRR T-1 pulling what must be express box cars...

Image result for prr t1

PRR T-1 5537 fresh out of the shop...

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PRR T-1 6110 Builder's Photo...

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PRR T-1 5501 view of the front end set up...

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PRR T-1 6110 being tested at Altoona...

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PRR T-1 Prototype testing clearances (Pittsbugh, perhaps?)...

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PRR T-1 ready to depart unknown location next to station switcher...

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PRR S-1 6-4-4-6 Duplex with 84 inch drivers and total engine and tender length of 140 feet, five feet longer than the Big Boy at 135 feet, racing a NYC J3a Hudson out of Chicago...

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PRR T-1 5519 traditional wedge shot from the back end...

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PRR T-1 5517 roster shot in Fort Wayne IN...

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PRR T-1 6111 publicity shot with rods down on the front drivers...

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PRR T-1 55?? getting coaled up...

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Posted by guetem1 on Saturday, December 24, 2016 11:07 PM
not only is John Winfield a great artist, but he and his wife are two of the nicest people you could ever hope to meet
RME
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Posted by RME on Saturday, December 24, 2016 3:33 PM

There are two distinct front-end styles for the 'production' T1s.  The first style is the one with the portholes, and the center low-mounted keystone.  These were rebuilt very quickly to the 'later' version with the Timken Stoker-like housing with the 'auxiliary light' in the middle, and keystone up on the prow where it belongs.

By the way: I had thought the light oscillated, a bit like a poor man's Mars light.  It does not - it's just an extra 'fog' light.  (Found the detail drawings!)

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Posted by kgbw49 on Friday, December 23, 2016 4:36 PM

BaltACD, my take on the T1 Keystone number plate location is that it changed when the front end was modified.

It looks like even the production units had the low number plate when they had the "fancy" front end with the three small portholes on the sides and an overall more bulbous look, as exemplified by 5528 in the last photo (which appears to be taken right after it was released from the shop). In that configuration, access to the running boards looks to be via grab irons and some recessed steps.

But it looks like the front ends were modified at some point to give access to the running boards by the more traditional slanted ladders, at which point the Keystone was moved up to the prow just under the headlight. It seems like the ladders give better access to the running boards for maintenance crews and it looks like the redesign also removed skirting from the sides in front of the first set of pistons, which I am surmising might also make maintenance easier. The second last photo shows 5500 with the modified front end.

That is just my best guess. Perhaps there are some Pennsy steam experts out there who could shed more light?

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, December 23, 2016 8:55 AM

CSSHEGEWISCH
I would guess that the locomotives with the low-mounted Keystone would be 6110 and 6111, which could be described as pre-production models.

Out of the 10 pictures that were quoted in my prior post, 6 had keystones and 4 had lights.  Can't read engine numbers in the 10 pictures.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Friday, December 23, 2016 6:41 AM

I would guess that the locomotives with the low-mounted Keystone would be 6110 and 6111, which could be described as pre-production models.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, December 23, 2016 2:04 AM

kgbw49
Leaving Chicago Union Station...

Image result for pennsylvania railroad t1

Leaving Chicago...

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Passing Van Wert, OH on the advertised...

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Waiting for the highball...

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Pittsburgh engine terminal...

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A little wear and tear but ready to chew up the miles...

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Rockville Bridge...

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Clean stack through Harrisburg, PA...

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Making time through Pittsburgh, PA...

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Fresh off the showroom floor...

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Some engines have the Keystone mounted on the housing just above the coupler.  Others have some kind of light mounted there.  What is the signifigance of the light?

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, December 23, 2016 12:44 AM

A musician-author-teacher responded to my Christmas transmission to her as follows:

I think you sent the one about the paralyzed boy before - a good one for the season.
The other one reminded me of a time I was on one of my British trips, and was invited by members of the London Organ Club to go with them from London to Coventry back in the 1960s. They had rented a steamer, and several of them went in the engine. It seemed a pretty straight run. I tagged along to the engine to watch. On the way back some of them decided they wanted to see how fast they could go. They took off their coats (handing some to me) and went to the stoker and started shoveling like mad; a couple were up front with the engineer. We were definitely speeding up (and I began wondering if some of those guys weren't courting heart attacks) we roared past the Eton station and a bunch of the school boys were on the platform (they still wore uniforms then). They seemed to know exactly what was going on, and they jumped up and down waving their hats in the air. We slowed down entering London, apparently about a half hour ahead of the planned time. I never did find out just how fast we were going, but the guys who had been stoking were pretty sweaty and a bit grubby. I wondered if they were going to get bloody hell from their wives when they got home. I also wondered if British Rail would ever rent a train to the Organ Club again!  :-)
 
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Posted by kgbw49 on Wednesday, December 21, 2016 7:22 PM

Leaving Chicago Union Station...

Image result for pennsylvania railroad t1

Leaving Chicago...

Image result for pennsylvania railroad t1

Passing Van Wert, OH on the advertised...

Related image

Waiting for the highball...

Image result for pennsylvania railroad t1

Pittsburgh engine terminal...

Related image

A little wear and tear but ready to chew up the miles...

Image result for pennsylvania railroad t1

Rockville Bridge...

Image result for pennsylvania railroad t1

Clean stack through Harrisburg, PA...

Related image

Making time through Pittsburgh, PA...

Image result for pennsylvania railroad t1

Fresh off the showroom floor...

Related image

 

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Posted by Jim611 on Tuesday, December 20, 2016 10:33 PM

I had the pleasure of meeting John Crosby's son a few years ago.  He said that it was not an isolated incident and that engineers would frequently exceed the speed limit in order to make up time on a passenger train running late.

His dad ended up as a PRR tower operator in Toledo where he had a lot of time to write.

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Posted by wraithe on Sunday, December 18, 2016 4:32 AM

tpatrick

Here's a question for one of you with an engineering degree. This T1 was pulling 14 cars, which I would estimate to be about 1200 tons. Please feel free to amend that estimate if you wish. Add to it another 450 tons for the locomotive and tender. Now tell me how much horsepower would it take to move that load 120 mph on level ground. Also is there a formula one can use to  determine HP? In my foggy memory I recall the T1 to be capable of 5000 to 6000 HP. Is that enough to pull off the alleged performance?

 

I dont drive trains, I have driven a steamer once and a diesel a few times, but I can explain large loads and speed...

My experience is trucks and I dont mean just one trailer and weighing only 42.5 tonnes(93,600 lbs) but upto 100 tonnes(220,000 lbs).. top speed aloud is 100 kph(60 mph)..

You might think, impossible with 50 tyres under you, 13 axles and and rough roads... But its getting going thats the hard bit, once you get that weight working for you and pushing when you need it, maintaining speed is easy and if our laws aloud, I could easily get upto 130 kph or more, but heat on tyres etc would be a problem... big hills that pulled you down below 80 kph(50mph) meant you had to make the engine work and gearing to pull you over the hill, so you would end up at about 50 kph(30mph)...

A good operator is only limited by the machines limits, there are limits to every machine(my limit was 550hp)..steam engines that are designed for speed, generally are capable of a lot more than they do daily, but then the operator is taking a risk at breaking the gear too...

I have read and heard stories about steamers going a lot faster than they where designed for, but they where designed to do a job and ability to do more, thus giving the engine a chance to last longer in service... Pushing the limits reduces that service time... A good operator should always get the best out of a machine..

I would love to have been able to run an express in an emergency, thats when you could run the fastest without any restrictions...( Like needing fresh cream for the local bailiff)...

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Posted by kgbw49 on Tuesday, December 13, 2016 8:36 PM

BaltACD, the numbers for 5500-5549 are 42.6 tons of coal and 19,200 US gallons of water per the info on Steamlocomotive.com.

http://steamlocomotive.com/duplex/?page=prr

The engine and empty tender are reported as weighing 944,700 lbs.

The T1 driver fixed wheelbase was 25 feet 4 inches. This compares to the PRR J1 driver fixed wheelbase of 24 feet 4 inches.

Big units!

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:34 PM

What was the capacity of the tender?

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by kgbw49 on Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:04 PM

Fresh out of Altoona Shops...

Image result for pennsylvania railroad 4-4-4-4

At Harrisburg PA...

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Downgrade on Horseshoe Curve...

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Brunswick Green at speed...

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Station stop...

Image result for 4-4-4-4 duplex

Ready to roll...

Image result for 4-4-4-4 duplex

 

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Posted by kgbw49 on Sunday, December 11, 2016 10:35 AM

Here is a nifty 4-minute video with a lot of T1 footage...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=znMu4K71ktY

At Columbus, OH...

Image result for pennsylvania railroad t1 steam locomotive

Doubleheading with another T1 in the smoke shadow...

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Outrunning the camera shutter at high speed...

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Burning up the miles with a dinged-up front end...

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Coming up the express tracks on four tracks wide...

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About to rattle double diamonds...

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Station stop at Valparaiso...

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Broadside at a bit of an odd angle, but it shows just how big a unit these locomotives are - they are very large...

Image result for pennsylvania railroad t1 steam locomotive

 

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