Leo_Ames Thanks, I hope that didn't sound like a stupid question. I basically was curious if the engine is overhauled concurently with their rebuilding to SD60E specifications, or just getting EFI and such. For instance, I believe that SD80MAC/SD90MAC engine overhauls are happening on an as-needed basis and aren't necessarily concurent with their rebuilding to ACU specifications, where as Roanoke seems to be overhauling the FDL as the first step of a AC44C6M rebuild (At least judging by those being sent to Erie).
Thanks, I hope that didn't sound like a stupid question.
I basically was curious if the engine is overhauled concurently with their rebuilding to SD60E specifications, or just getting EFI and such.
For instance, I believe that SD80MAC/SD90MAC engine overhauls are happening on an as-needed basis and aren't necessarily concurent with their rebuilding to ACU specifications, where as Roanoke seems to be overhauling the FDL as the first step of a AC44C6M rebuild (At least judging by those being sent to Erie).
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Leo_Ames Since they're removing the engines, is it safe to assume that it's being overhauled at the same time a SD60 goes through the conversion program? Or is it just convenient to get it out of the way while applying upgrades like EFI to it (And I don't see it at AltoonaWorks, but isn't the turbocharger and intercooler changed in the process of converting them from their original 710G3A standard to Norfolk Southern's B-IC standard)?
Since they're removing the engines, is it safe to assume that it's being overhauled at the same time a SD60 goes through the conversion program?
Or is it just convenient to get it out of the way while applying upgrades like EFI to it (And I don't see it at AltoonaWorks, but isn't the turbocharger and intercooler changed in the process of converting them from their original 710G3A standard to Norfolk Southern's B-IC standard)?
Given my druthers I would always want the prime mover on the shop floor for work. Obviously this is not practical in just about every case. I have never converted a layshaft engine to EFI but since it involves every cylinder of the engine and taking into consideration the age of the engine the best course is to remove it for rebuild. Every head will have to be changed or modified and electrical harnesses to each piston mounted to the block.
Could the engine be rebuilt in place? Most likely. Could the new plumbing splitting the intercooler into its own loop with its own radiator forward of the turbo be done with the engine still in place? Yes. Could the new electrial panel aft of the engine compartment be wired and installed with the engine in place? Sure. But then you would have machinists, electricians and pipe-fitters falling all over each other. NS seems to have found the right formula for the "E" rebuilds but the SD60E program appears to have come to an end at least for the moment.
There is some really great technical information in this thread. I'd like to add a non-technical observation and I apologize if it is too far off topic. Anyway, here goes...'
The SD90/SD9043/SD80 MAC units are sort of the last of the battleships, so to speak, in that the 80 foot frame was designed to pack "bigger firepower" (HP) into one unit. They are direct descendants of the U50C, C855, DD35A, DDA40X, and SD45, in the manner that the Iowa-class battleships were descendants of HMS Dreadbought. The additional frame length of roughly 6 feet longer than an SD70ACE and roughly 7 feet longer than a GEVO coupled with the EMD cab give these units a massive appearance.
So I hope at some time in the next 20-30 years one of these SD70ACUs are preserved as one of the last of the dreadnoughts.
Sorry, don't know what I did, but I double posted this.
kgbw49 D.Carleton, thank you for the great info on the two rebuilds! One question arises-do you perhaps know what is done to boost the prime mover on the SD60E up from 3800 HP to 4000 HP? Thank you!
D.Carleton, thank you for the great info on the two rebuilds! One question arises-do you perhaps know what is done to boost the prime mover on the SD60E up from 3800 HP to 4000 HP? Thank you!
caldreamer Will the rebuild of SD9043MAC's upgrade their emmissions to Tier2 or 3?. I see nothing on the NS Dash9 site about their new emmission level or if it will be upgraded with all the new computer upgrades.
Will the rebuild of SD9043MAC's upgrade their emmissions to Tier2 or 3?. I see nothing on the NS Dash9 site about their new emmission level or if it will be upgraded with all the new computer upgrades.
D.CarletonAn SD60 is taken all the way down to the frame to become an SD60E; everything gets touched meaning many more man-hours of labor: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=532358&nseq=6
Thanks
Leo_Ames And isn't the entire electrical cabinet replaced with the SD70ACU's? I thought that besides the main alternator and traction motors, that pretty much the rest of the electrical system was replaced along with the inverters.
And isn't the entire electrical cabinet replaced with the SD70ACU's? I thought that besides the main alternator and traction motors, that pretty much the rest of the electrical system was replaced along with the inverters.
Aft of the clean air cab everything is left the same unless something specific needs to be addressed: http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=570372&nseq=2
Leo_Ames Other than the upgraded cooling system, I don't think that a SD60E rebuild is all that much different in terms of scope of work involved?
Other than the upgraded cooling system, I don't think that a SD60E rebuild is all that much different in terms of scope of work involved?
Earlier this week the AltoonaWorks Facebook page reported that the trade will be for 15 MP15DC's in exchange for an equal number of SD90MAC's from the CEFX fleet.
caldreamer What happended with the SD60E program the NS is shutting it down? Was it performance, technical or maintenance issues?
What happended with the SD60E program the NS is shutting it down? Was it performance, technical or maintenance issues?
A SD60E starts out as a SD60, is stripped down to the frame, the prime mover rebuilt with EFI, the plumbing rearranged to split the cooling loops, the electric locker moved to the rear of the locomotive and, everyone's favorite, the new Crescent Cab. A SD90MAC has its cab and inverters replaced and, bingo, it's a SD70ACu.
As the man once said, "Follow the money."
D.Carleton, thanks for that good information. That is a nice boost in HP for the SD60E rebuilds. NS must have some talented people overseeing those rebuild programs.
kgbw49 I suppose in a downturned economy with double digits less traffic overall, the need for rebuilding diminishes and they can be more selective in what they rebuild. 4300 HP units such as the SD70ACU have really become the "standard" HP for road units, so 3,800 HP units that are even older are probably not needed as much as they would have been in an economy that is booming along. 20 SD70ACU 4300 HP units do the work of 23 SD60E 3800 HP units. That is significant.
I suppose in a downturned economy with double digits less traffic overall, the need for rebuilding diminishes and they can be more selective in what they rebuild. 4300 HP units such as the SD70ACU have really become the "standard" HP for road units, so 3,800 HP units that are even older are probably not needed as much as they would have been in an economy that is booming along. 20 SD70ACU 4300 HP units do the work of 23 SD60E 3800 HP units. That is significant.
Leo_Ames Altoonaworks via their Facebook page reports that SD60 #6655 is going to Cresson.
Altoonaworks via their Facebook page reports that SD60 #6655 is going to Cresson.
An individual on the NSDash9 Facebook page reports that it was running as recently as December and another says that she was stored serviceable, so it wouldn't appear to be wreck damage.
So perhaps this is a sign that the SD60E program will soon be curtailed. Too bad and a bit of a surprise if true. Norfolk Southern has bought several variants on the used marketplace in recent years and the SD60E program seemed to be a success. But it looks like it won't just be Dash 8's being put out to pasture in the next few years if they're scrapping a running SD60.
Assuming that she isn't resold, I wonder if this will be the first intact SD60 to be scrapped? Been retirements through the years such as on Union Pacific, but to the best of my knowledge, they always found new homes.
Without a resource like NSDash9 available it's difficult to ascertain for sure, but I bet Union Pacific has most of the convertibles in storage right now.
They fell out of favor years ago and with the traffic downturn, I suspect that they're following in the footsteps of past UP power like the GE double engined monsters in sitting it out the moment power requirements allowed them to be stored.
Hopefully they were favorably impressed with what they inspected and decide to rebuild and modernize them in a similar manner to what NS has successfully accomplished.
It will be interesting to see if NS eventually becomes the largest owner of SD9043/SD70ACU units over time. Even with UP turning back 100 to the lessor, they are, of course continuing to operate somewhere in the range of 200 +/- SD9043 units. But NS seems to be gaining on them.
It seems to be a good strategy - putting reliable "like new" power out on the road for a fraction of the capital cost of a new unit, and leveraging the proven quality of the 710 engine for another 20 years or more.
I quoted you word for word, but I apologize that I sloppily took it out of context. That very much wasn't my intention which is why I already tried to fix it once.
I did not realize that you were specifically only mentioning what was planned for #104 during its stay at Altoona before entering service officially as a NS unit.
Thanks for correcting it and providing what's a very interesting resource on the motive power happenings of what's perhaps the most interesting Class 1 roster to watch these days. This topic in fact has pretty much been built around the information that you post at your website.
I only wish you had the time to cover all US Class 1's, since it almost seems like the railfan community is in the dark about the goings on elsewhere compared to the level of information provided by you.
Leo_Ames NSDash9 reports that it's unknown if they'll be rebuilt as SD70ACU's, but I imagine that's a safe bet. [Edit: Actually, he says that they're "not planned to be rebuilt as an SD70ACU at this time".]
NSDash9 reports that it's unknown if they'll be rebuilt as SD70ACU's, but I imagine that's a safe bet. [Edit: Actually, he says that they're "not planned to be rebuilt as an SD70ACU at this time".]
No, it's not what I said. With reference to rebuilding, I only addressed CEFX 104, which is at Altoona, PA now. It is there for an engine overhaul and patch renumbering to NS 7329. It is not planned for that unit to be put through the SD70ACU program at this time.
The other SD90MAC units NS is acquiring will be evaluated once they arrive.
Chris TothNSDash9.comAlso visit my NSDash9 facebook page for the latest NS power updates.
Despite what he says, I can't imagine them not turning them into SD70ACUs, as buying a small amount of relatively unique power doesn't make a lot of sense. Combine a small class size with typical leaser maintenence and...
I think that CP's long stored SD90MACs are still available.
With just 13 MP15's stored right now if we include the rebuilds, hopefully no more will go than that number. I was hoping to see quite a few more MP15E's be done, but the pace has decreased quite a bit with that program so it may be drawing to a close.
With dozens of GP38-2's idle and the MP15E program slowing down or already finished, I wouldn't be surprised to see all the MP15DC's be eliminated in the next couple of years despite many of them still being active.
If more SD90MAC's go on the market in the next few years, I wonder if NS will jump at the chance and acquire them for rebuilding? With the unsatisfactory nature of the Dash 8.5 program, that can't bode well for the longevity of the slightly younger C40-8W's variants and this could help push all the Dash 8's out to pasture that new power and decreased traffic needs won't already have taken care of.
One could infer that NS must be pleased with their performance so far if they are expanding ownership of the model for further conversions.
NS Dash 9 has partially confirmed that, unit number is unknown but CIT will recieve MP15s in exchange.
Rumor has it NS has acquired seven more SD90MACs from CIT.
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