F40PH vs Genesis

[Ham549]

It seems that many people share the view that the F40PH was not only better then the Genesis but the Genesis just plane sucks. I have noticed that they tend to catch fire more often then not, there "seamless" design makes them a pain to work on they can't accelerate like a F40 could, and the list goes on and on. So why is it that the F40's are being scraped and tax payers $$$ being wasted on these POS?  

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Amtrak unloaded their F40PH's because they were old (at least 20 years old and up) and worn out.  Most of the remaining F40PH's are in suburban service, which is less demanding, and a fair number of those have been rebuilt.

[edbenton]

Lets see here F40 required the engine to run in Notch 8 to provide HEP to the train only has 3000 hp when not providing HEP 2200 when in HEP and only has 1800 gallons of fuel.  Genesis series HEP is in notch 5 saving fuel 4000HP in the first ones 4200 in the second set 3600HP when producing HEP carries 2400 gallons of fuel.  Ge also desigened to fit into the Hudson river tunnels and be capable of running on 3rd rail the P32ACDM to replace the FL-9.

[GP40-2]

It seems that many people share the view that the F40PH was not only better then the Genesis but the Genesis just plane sucks...

Who are the "many people"? Railfans who have never worked a day in the industry? Just asked the typical Amtrak engineer what they would prefer to operate and spend a workday in, and you will get a vastly different response.

[cprted]

It seems that many people share the view that the F40PH was not only better then the Genesis but the Genesis just plane sucks.

I didn't know they could fly!!!! Surely Amtrak has no excuse for late arrivals now.

[Lord Atmo]

well, you know what Jay Leno once said

"Amtrak gets more air than jetblue!"

[Ham549]

I have asked Amtrak workers and I get F40PH (although they do say the cab on the Genesis is more comfortable.) Also a 2 stroke engine has more advantages to a 4 stroke. The fuel tank is a easy fix as CSX has proven. The notch 8 part is true but the F40 can cut out cylinders also updating it with a 2ed engine or an alternator in the nose would work to fix this. 

[edbenton]

Alot of the Frames were also warped and starting to rust.  Also remember this when they retired the F40 the lowest mileage one had 2.4 Million miles on it.  You can only rebuild traction motors so many times before they do become unreliable also the Prime Movers the 645's were SHOT you run 2.4 million or more miles at full throttle max HP and also have start and stop then acclearate a train fast.  Face it they are fuel hogs and were worn out.  I know of one time were the Southwest Chief left Alberquere with 4 F40's on the point to climb Raton pass normally it took 2 they had to call the Santa Fe for an engine to help them 3 of the 4 failed on the pass.  Why worn out and all of them exploded the Prime Mover.

[cprted]

Ham we realize that you are completely obsessed far beyond any point of rationality with the F40PH, but seriously, get a grip. Old technology gets phased out in favour of new. Its part of life. Enjoy pictures, models, etc. Keep saving those pennies and buy one for your backyard.

[Ham549]

I like the GP38 better than the SD60 however I do relies that the SD60 is a better locomotive for many reasons. I also don't really care for the new VIA updated F40PHs but I understand that they are not in it for pleasing rail fans and need to make money and could use some of those upgrades. HOWEVER, the Genesis is a complete POS also consider

1. One of the main guys in charge of upgrading the Amtrak fleet had ties with GE

2. It would have been cheaper to upgrade the F40PHs than to get new locomotives (isn't Amtrak always cash strapped?)

3. VIA got 20 Genesis locomotives and then no more and decided to rebuild there current fleet.

4. In this months Trains it mentions how a locomotive shell can fetch $50,000 (more than the scrap value of a F40PH yet Amtrak decided to cut a bunch of them into 3x3 sections and sell the rubble to junk yards

5. If one of those F40PHs that were scraped were leading that Metra train that struck that SUV would we have had that horrid crash?

 

And as for the Genesis locomotive safety record... well need I go on  

[silicon212]

You can't really compare a GP38(-2) to an SD60 - apples and oranges, my friend.  They are built for different tasks.

The GE Genesis is the unit that Amtrak is running now.  These might have their flaws, but they are newer and more full of life than the newest F40PH that was in Amtrak's fleet.  I personally, from a railfan perspective, prefer EMD but I also know the GE units are better for Amtrak, right now, than the F40s are.  Besides, those F40PHs were screaming machines running in Notch 8 all of the time for HEP.  Run one of those for 12 hours a day and you'll welcome the quiet comfort of the Genesis.

The F40PH is a locomotive nearing or exceeding 30 years of age, and the whole time they've been run hard and put away wet.  See if you can last 30 years doing that!

[Ham549]

There was an articeal in Trains about all the premature traction motor failures on the P42s

[Lord Atmo]

Ham, i'm gonna have to agree with CPRted. take my word for it too, because i can relate to you on this issue. i'm the same way with CNW locomotives. but i realize that protesting what has become of them wont do anything but bother everyone else. change may suck sometimes, but it's inevitable. learn to adapt to the now and let go of the past as i have. if i may quote CopCarSS..

"everyone was so upset about the end of steam that they missed some really cool first generation diesels."

i'm upset about my CNWs all being destroyed, but i've moved on to enjoy UP SD70Ms, GEs, and other new stuff that UP rosters. the P42 can't be THAT bad (unless it's being towed behind 261. 1930s passenger trains didnt have P42s on them dammit!!!). everything has flaws. i'm sure the F40PH had problems of its own. and i'll even admit to it. CNW's SD60s gave crews big headaches. the new computer systems with the 710 engines failed many times. add that to the fact that these were among the first SD60s ever built. so the design wasnt tweaked and improved on like it was on SOO's batch. 

the F40PH was a nice locomotive, but it certainly wasnt perfect. no locomotive is perfect.

i wont tell you to be thankful that several are being converted to cabbages like some may however. because i HATE when i'm told i should enjoy that many CNWs still run in UP's boring paint scheme. i know cabbages simply arent the same as F40PHs.

i also suggest getting an HO layout if you dont yet have one, Kato makes avery nice F40PH model that you may want to look into getting. i cant say i know of a company that makes those classic Amtrak coaches (the unilevel round-ish ones) but walthers makes nice superliners. you could make a whole HO passenger terminal with F40PHs and superliners everywhere. i've begun to make a CNW freight route on my layout and it really does make me happy. immortalize your past in HO scale. trust me, it's worth it.

mull it over for a while and try to find a way to enjoy this hobby even without the F40PH. 

[vsmith]

I've heard that F40PHs were not loved by their crews because they were extremely noisy in the cabs. That aside, you can only rebuild a locomotive so many times, without a proper diesel or generators to replace the old worn out ones, without replacement traction motors, eventually all engines will die out unless retrofit modifications are possible.

I personally dont like the P42s astethics, they look like big steel lunchboxes to me. But them I dont like most all dismals.

[Ham549]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HZWpeU55J3E

vs

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r2r139F9CUo&feature=related 

[n012944]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HZWpeU55J3E

vs

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r2r139F9CUo&feature=related  

 

I activated the links for you.  I am not quite sure what the point is though.

[cprted]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HZWpeU55J3E

vs

http://youtube.com/watch?v=r2r139F9CUo&feature=related 

I'm not sure what that is supposed to prove. Looks like the crew compartment of the P42 stayed intact just as well as the F40.

[edbenton]

I would still take the Genesis since it was designed as a SAFTEY CAB UNIT.  The F40PH was a cowl unit were the cab was just bolted to the frame then spotwelded in place.  The P40 has steel beams designed to take the impact of a 125 ton freight car hitting it at 110 MPH in a worse case incedent and protect the crew.  Ask the crew of the BNSF trains that hit head on in CA how glad they were to be in Safety cabs that day.  They all survived a head on when 2 freight trains hit at a combined speed of 80 and lived.  A regular cab would have been destroyed.  Also if you look at the end of that first video the dummy gets hit by a piece of the cab debris from the impact.

[YoHo1975]

Quite Frankly, I think the F40 only looks slightly better then a Genesis. I'd take the FP45 over either and they've been running longer.

Amtrak does have the F59phi and I've heard, despite the weight issues, that they are well liked and less onerous then the P42s, but there aren't as many of them and they don't have the same power and weight characteristics as the P42. Eventually Amtrak will HAVE to get something new. 

[oltmannd]

Wow.  Lots of opinions here.  Let me wade in with my

 Design:

The F40PHs were phenominally successful considering they were a rush job.  They are really just "dressed up" GP40-2s with a gear driven HEP generator added on.  In order to keep the weight under control, they have very small fuel tanks.  They have ride stability issues and ride quality issues, that, admirably, EMD managed to address with yaw dampers and chevron rubber pad secondary suspension.  They were noisy, both outside and inside the cab.  They don't fit everywhere.  They weigh too much for the Park Ave. Viaduct into GCT (although that's a moot point, now) and they don't fit into Penn Sta.- so couldn't accomodate a dual mode version.

The Genesis locomotives were designed from a clean sheet of paper to address all of the F40PHs shortcomings.  More and better protected fuel.  Lower weight.  Lower noise emmissions and noise  level in the cab.  Complied with new FRA crashworthiness std.  Greater length = greater stability at speed.

F40PHs worn out?

No.  Locomotives never wear out.  They are designed to run until either they rust away or are supplanted by more cost effective technology.  Each and every component on a locomotive is designed to, and is, regularly rebuilt.  The F40PHs would normally have their trucks rebuilt every couple of years, all the power assemblies changed every 4 years, for example. 

Genesis not worthy?

It appears to me that the Genesis locomotives are pretty darn good.  Yes, they have had issues with traction motors. But, all locomotive models have their issues.  The F40PHs had their issues, too.  The HEP system was the source of lots of trouble, in particular, the reduction gear gearbox, plus ride quality/truck issues.

 

[FTGT725]

Lets see here F40 required the engine to run in Notch 8 to provide HEP to the train only has 3000 hp when not providing HEP 2200 when in HEP and only has 1800 gallons of fuel.  Genesis series HEP is in notch 5 saving fuel 4000HP in the first ones 4200 in the second set 3600HP when producing HEP carries 2400 gallons of fuel.  Ge also desigened to fit into the Hudson river tunnels and be capable of running on 3rd rail the P32ACDM to replace the FL-9.

Why were/are F40s required to run in notch 8 to provide HEP. They weren't always in notch 8 when pulling trains so what happens then?

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Lets see here F40 required the engine to run in Notch 8 to provide HEP to the train only has 3000 hp when not providing HEP 2200 when in HEP and only has 1800 gallons of fuel.  Genesis series HEP is in notch 5 saving fuel 4000HP in the first ones 4200 in the second set 3600HP when producing HEP carries 2400 gallons of fuel.  Ge also desigened to fit into the Hudson river tunnels and be capable of running on 3rd rail the P32ACDM to replace the FL-9.

Why were/are F40s required to run in notch 8 to provide HEP. They weren't always in notch 8 when pulling trains so what happens then?

The engine was required to run at Notch 8 to allow the HEP alternator to provide enough power for the train.  When in HEP mode, the throttle only controls output from the main alternator.  When F40's were operated in multiple, only the trailing unit was in HEP mode.

[oltmannd]

Lets see here F40 required the engine to run in Notch 8 to provide HEP to the train only has 3000 hp when not providing HEP 2200 when in HEP and only has 1800 gallons of fuel.  Genesis series HEP is in notch 5 saving fuel 4000HP in the first ones 4200 in the second set 3600HP when producing HEP carries 2400 gallons of fuel.  Ge also desigened to fit into the Hudson river tunnels and be capable of running on 3rd rail the P32ACDM to replace the FL-9.

Why were/are F40s required to run in notch 8 to provide HEP. They weren't always in notch 8 when pulling trains so what happens then?

 The HEP gen was gear driven off the front of the diesel engine.  In order to make 60 Hz, the diesel engine had to turn at 896 RPM - which is notch 8 engine speed.  So, even when the throttle is in idle and the train is stopped, the diesel engine was still turing at 896 RPM, but there was no load on the main generator - no excitation provided by the control system.  When the engineer notches out, the main generator is excited and power to move the train is generated.

F40PHs could operate in "freight" mode with the HEP turned off and would have 8 distinct engine speeds, one for each notch.  They could also operate in "standby" mode where HEP power came off the main generator with the engine running notch 6 speed (and the traction motors not being powered)

I rode the Broadway one night where the 2nd unit died climbing the Horseshoe curve.  The lights and heat went out.  Then the 1st unit stalled right in the curve.  The came and fetched us with a couple of ancient Conrail SD40 helpers, towed us back to Altoona, ran around the train and took us to Chicago - all the way at 65 mph.  A minor miracle considering the condition of those SD40s at the time.  They had the former lead F40PH running in standby mode to provide the HEP.

[FTGT725]

Im not sure I understand this. Does this mean you always need two F40s in a consist, one for HEP and one for motive power? If you can run a solo F40, and it's always in notch 8, how do you control the speed and pulling power of the lone F40?

[timz]

Does this mean you always need two F40s in a consist, one for HEP and one for motive power?

No.

If you can run a solo F40, and it's always in notch 8, how do you control the speed and pulling power of the lone F40?

The F40 isn't always in Notch 8-- its engine is running at Notch 8 speed when providing HEP, but it's comparable to running your car's engine at 4000 rpm with the gearshift in neutral. If no excitation current is going to the AR10 it just spins freely, absorbing no power from the prime mover; the engine's control system provides enough excitation current to get the pulling power corresponding to the throttle notch.

[FTGT725]

Does this mean you always need two F40s in a consist, one for HEP and one for motive power?

No.

If you can run a solo F40, and it's always in notch 8, how do you control the speed and pulling power of the lone F40?

The F40 isn't always in Notch 8-- its engine is running at Notch 8 speed when providing HEP, but it's comparable to running your car's engine at 4000 rpm with the gearshift in neutral. If no excitation current is going to the AR10 it just spins freely, absorbing no power from the prime mover; the engine's control system provides enough excitation current to get the pulling power corresponding to the throttle notch.

So when supplying HEP, are you saying they basicly idle at the notch 8 rpm setting? 

[edbenton]

Correct and sucking down the fuel at 200 Gallons per HOUR.  With the F40PH only holding 1800 gallons providing HEP they need to be refueled every 9 hours or less.  Why do you think one of the requirements of the P40 Design was lower fuel usage while providing HEP.  They do it in Notch 6 and only using 140 gallons an Hour and holding 2200 Gallons they can go 15 hours before requiring refueling. 

[timz]

Correct and sucking down the fuel at 200 Gallons per HOUR.

It doesn't, of course. If it's "idling" at 896 RPM and supplying no HEP or traction power, it burns ... what's it supposed to be, around 25 gal/hr?

Caltrain still has a couple of old-style F40s (not converted with a separate engine for HEP) so somebody hopefully has a clue what the correct figure is.

[Ham549]

Those Fuel tanks look pretty big to me. Unlike the Genesis the F40PH wasn't a "seamless" car body so you could easily get at and replace parts.

As you can see it dosen't take much to derail a Genesis

[Railway Man]

Thoes Fule tanks look pretty big to me. Unlike the Genesis the F40PH wasen't a "seemless" carbody so you could easely get at and replace parts.

1800 gallons looks big?

2200 gallons on the P42.  400 more gallons extends range by at least two hours, which is quite a big difference. 

Try turning wrenches on an F40.  Then tell me it's easier to get at things than on a P42.  All carbody type locomotives have poor maintenance access to the prime mover and equipment rack.

I applaud your determination and persistence.

RWM