Trains.com

UP announces order for 20 Battery electric locomotives

4762 views
28 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,752 posts
UP announces order for 20 Battery electric locomotives
Posted by YoHo1975 on Saturday, January 29, 2022 3:01 PM

https://www.up.com/media/releases/battery-electric-locomotive-nr-220128.htm

 

Surprised I'm the first posting about this given the President even mentioned it.

 

10 from Progress/EMD and 10 from Wabtec.

 

If you look at the side bar, a few things are notable. First is that the EMD design is NOT AT ALL a joule in terms of carbody or trucks.

It looks like an SD70M/MAC that's been rebuilt. See the HTCR trucks underneath.

 

Also, and perhaps most interesting, note what appears to be a pantograph at the back.

Also note that the Wabtec unit appears to be the FLX drive unit. HOWEVER, I'm not sure we can 100% infer that UP is simply buying that design as is.

The EMD Joule of course could ride under the hood of an SD70, but the FLX is a bit of a different design, so it's curious if all 20 units will be used in the same service or not.

The press release notes that they've received money to "upgrade yard facilities" presumably that means charging infrastructure. It will be interesting to see if that pantograph is purely a static thing or if parts of the yard have wire strung up.

 

Most interesting to me is that the artist rendering implies they've chosen safety cab equipped units. Does this infer that these units will be running locals and turns, not just yard jobs? 

Seems clear they'll have these based in North Platte and in the LA Basin. Not sure if they'll have them up here in Roseville where it certainly does get hot in the summer. 

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 22,733 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, January 29, 2022 7:35 PM

YoHo1975
https://www.up.com/media/releases/battery-electric-locomotive-nr-220128.htm 

Surprised I'm the first posting about this given the President even mentioned it. 

10 from Progress/EMD and 10 from Wabtec. 

If you look at the side bar, a few things are notable. First is that the EMD design is NOT AT ALL a joule in terms of carbody or trucks.

It looks like an SD70M/MAC that's been rebuilt. See the HTCR trucks underneath. 

Also, and perhaps most interesting, note what appears to be a pantograph at the back.

Also note that the Wabtec unit appears to be the FLX drive unit. HOWEVER, I'm not sure we can 100% infer that UP is simply buying that design as is.

The EMD Joule of course could ride under the hood of an SD70, but the FLX is a bit of a different design, so it's curious if all 20 units will be used in the same service or not.

The press release notes that they've received money to "upgrade yard facilities" presumably that means charging infrastructure. It will be interesting to see if that pantograph is purely a static thing or if parts of the yard have wire strung up. 

Most interesting to me is that the artist rendering implies they've chosen safety cab equipped units. Does this infer that these units will be running locals and turns, not just yard jobs?

Seems clear they'll have these based in North Platte and in the LA Basin. Not sure if they'll have them up here in Roseville where it certainly does get hot in the summer. 

Once in service will they also get a graffiti power assist like the locomotives they will be replacing?

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,020 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Saturday, January 29, 2022 11:18 PM

Seems that there is not much information as to how it will work? 

1.  A big question is AC or DC traction motors?

2.  If DC control will be simpler.  How will the loco get 74 V DC power for various loco auxliaries?  As well the DC for MU control of other locos?

3.  AC would be less consumption of battery power esspecially starting as DC takes more and the DC traction motors can heat up running at continous slow speeds.

5.  AC of course means transformers, rectifiers, & inverter(s) but they can have a tap for the 74 V  with a rectifier for auxillaries.

6.  The idea of a pan for charging batteries is wise as it precludes anyone disconnecting a charge cable.  All the engineeer would have to do is press a button to raise and lower pan.

7.  If CAT for chargiing what would the power to CAT be?  It has many plus and minuses.  Anything other than 25 kV ac could have problems for any other RR operation of electrified equipment.  Thinking of CA HSR and Brightline west.  Or if UP and BNSF electrified their mainlines an yard leads.

8.  Other voltage and frequencies in that case would have to be on a siding that never could be accesed by road power.

9.  DC voltage output from batteries  may be between 600 - 1200 V ).  If direct charging of barreries would need a plug in or CAT voltage about 6 -10% higher? Lower voltages require very heavy wire(s) for charging.  Also the commercial power transformers & other needs to be close.

BTW.  All these builders completely ignore the emmissions  from power plantts to supply power to these batteries.

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,752 posts
Posted by YoHo1975 on Sunday, January 30, 2022 10:29 AM

The builders don't have any control over the power plants so it makes sense they wouldn't reference them. I don't know about North Platte, but California has a high renewable mix. I think LA is less green than norcal (lots of local dams along with major transmission lines from Bonneville.) but in either case, for California, it will for sure be less. Nebraska is a test location due to Temps. I'd imagine once they get their answer, they could theoretically move the units to a more effective location. 

 

Plus, Nebraska does not lack for space for wind and solar if there is the will to build it. 

I would imagine it would be relatively trivial to string wire over the drill tracks for the humps where power sets spend an awful lot of time and get a lot of "bang for the buck." 

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • 2,236 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Sunday, January 30, 2022 10:36 AM

Blue Streak 1, perhaps EMD is thinking there is a market for a variation of these units with commuter agencies in the future where they now have a mix of electrified and non-electrified lines. They may be able to electrify those lines using part catenary and part battery depending on the distance from the end of catenary.

(As to your last point, sshhh, we're not supposed to talk about that for any type of EV on rail or road. In the meantime, if we are ever going to have a prayer of a chance of getting to the dream of running 290 million vehicles in the US and all housing heat on electricity, we are going to need an awful lot of these which our friends Mr. Gates and Mr. Buffett are backing:

https://www.terrapower.com/naughton-power-plant-first-natrium-nuclear-reactor/

But in the meantime, sshhhh, don't talk about what powers that electric commuter train or EV - just say it is all wind and solar and everyone can be happy.)

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 19,023 posts
Posted by Overmod on Monday, January 31, 2022 4:13 AM

blue streak 1
Seems that there is not much information as to how it will work?

I think much of the 'picture' can be figured out objectively.  Here are some of my opinions: 

1.  A big question is AC or DC traction motors?

For modern new construction, AC only.  It is remotely possible that some railroads might develop zero-carbon power with cheap or costed-down locomotives that have DC powertrains, but remember that many of the correspondingly low-perceived-value uses are among the most demanding in practice. 

2.  If DC control will be simpler.  How will the loco get 74 V DC power for various loco auxiliaries?  As well the DC for MU control of other locos?

Voltage-to-voltage conversion, if normal AC transformers followed by rectification are perceived as too expensive for some reason.  It makes sense to me to assume 220V 60Hz for compatibility with OTS equipment including ECP; this would be simply tapped for 110V 'regular' AC power,  

3.  AC would be less consumption of battery power especially starting as DC takes more and the DC traction motors can heat up running at continuous slow speeds.

Once you have paid for the synthesis drive and the suitable motors, AC has all the advantages.  Note that this has nothing to do with AC or DC external power supply from overhead wire or whatever, though.

What happened to #4?

5.  AC of course means transformers, rectifiers, & inverter(s) but they can have a tap for the 74 V with a rectifier for auxiliaries.

The AC in this case in this sense is remarkably simple: it transverts whatever the overhead power is into suitable DC-Link for the inverter drive, probably around 1500VDC.  This does not need to be controlled or modulated in any way, and it quickly follows that optimizing the battery charging around 1500VDC regardless of what is actually used in the strings can simplify the architecture and power management further.

The situation using 750VDC from existing or prospective types of third rail is slightly more complicated, but again if this involves running 'external' current through the battery system as on a tripower locomotive this is just a step-up or voltage-to-voltage concern.

The idea of a pan for charging batteries is wise as it precludes anyone disconnecting a charge cable.  All the engineer would have to do is press a button to raise and lower pan.

Well, it's a little more complicated as the facility likely won't be fully overhead-wired and the locomotive might have to be positioned, and special contact arrangements will be needed for true high-rate charging as spot heating of stationary contact becomes a concern.  What I currently favor is a pan design that incorporates the function of a charging connection when stationary as well as sliding contact when moving.

7.  If CAT for chargiing what would the power to CAT be?  It has many plus and minuses.  Anything other than 25 kV ac could have problems for any other RR operation of electrified equipment.  Thinking of CA HSR and Brightline west.  Or if UP and BNSF electrified their mainlines and yard leads.

My opinion is that European multi-voltage equipment is well-developed and now largely 'costed-down', so accommodating anything from 50kV to 750VDC ought to be achievable, with smaller subsets of conversion modularly available to save cost if desired.

8.  Other voltage and frequencies in that case would have to be on a siding that never could be accesed by road power.

Good argument for making all power capable of all power, as it were.

Since I am a firm believer in the use of sequentially expanding discontinuous catenary in building out electrification... any little pieces of overhead infrastructure ought to be designed to a common standard with an eye toward inclusion in a larger 'electrification'.  But it also remains plausible to wire cheap in some places and build the necessary multivoltage capability in.

There's also the 'flag day' model, in which you pick a day in the future when you repower your 1500VDC yard to use higher-voltage AC power or whatever...

9.  DC voltage output from batteries  may be between 600 - 1200V.  If direct charging of batteries would need a plug in or CAT voltage about 6 -10% higher? Lower voltages require very heavy wire(s) for charging.  Also the commercial power transformers & other needs to be close.

Do not forget they're called 'batteries' for a reason.  The charging arrangements act on strings or cells, not on the battery as a whole, and you can reasonably presume 'smart charging' of battery elements separate from discharge or regenerative accommodation.

BTW.  All these builders completely ignore the emissions  from power plants to supply power to these batteries.

Why should they?  That's not their direct concern.  

Note that there are a number of proposals and studies involving the use of electrified railroad equipment, including battery-equipped locomotives with single or multiple-phase plug-in, as resources for 'the grid' distribution infrastructure or for emergency management.  It is possible, for example, that nighttime train operation might provide the equivalent of some 'baseline' power at times renewable-solar generation capacity is unavailable...

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Central Iowa
  • 6,311 posts
Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, January 31, 2022 1:02 PM

I recall reading the Railway Age article about Wabtec's road electrics.  The second generation uses the overhead method to be able to recharge faster.  I think it said the time was about cut in half from 8 hours to 4 hours using the pan for the initial charge.

Somewhere on the employee's site, Lance was saying they weren't convinced (yet) about the merits of battery powered road units.

I myself think battery power has it's place.  But it's not practical for some transportation applications, especially heavy duty ones.  I think the current (no pun intended) electric battery powered fever that is sweeping the country is more about salesmenship to an audience that is urban and used to 30 second sound bites.

Jeff

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,752 posts
Posted by YoHo1975 on Monday, January 31, 2022 3:50 PM

I tend to agree with Overmod that the near term future is going to involve a yes and approach where locosets are going to have batteries/overhead electric AND diesel. This will enable the grid to catch up both in terms of capacity and transmission. 

 

There are a lot of irons in the fire on power infrastructure. We can't wait for all of them to come to fruition. 

From a California centric perspective. The world would not be a worse place if the LA basin and the Central Valley had  alot more wire strung up over their tracks. Batteries and diesel engines to bridge and/or take over on the way out wouldn't be too terrible.

 

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,020 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, April 1, 2022 1:10 AM

I have never been one to admit conclusions that fail with later developments.  Have long been not favorable to Li ION batteries due to their propensity to catch fire and the difficulties in putting said fire out.  I speak from experience.

Now there may be a replacement compound that can change the whole metric, It is GaN better known as Gallium Nitrite.  Not only can it exceed the therotical limits of Silicon it can reduce the size of batteries.  Is capable of faster charging and voltage limitations are now up to 800V for inverters,  That may become a way to make AC traction motors more efficient.  Also with regeneration of locos may be able to come with  less power loss.

Enough said read the following that I dug up.

How GaN is changing the future of semiconductors (msn.com)

EDIT:  "IF" This works then the concept of wireless streetcars and trolly buses in downtown areas make them more feasible.  UP might like it as well in their purcase listed in this post.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 19,023 posts
Posted by Overmod on Saturday, April 2, 2022 3:34 PM

Gallium nitride is not a battery material; it would be a switching material, and might be tolerant of higher energy-density architecture, but the actual chemistry or supercapacitor construction would not be affected.

I will be highly interested to see Erik's opinions on this.

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 19,023 posts
Posted by Overmod on Saturday, April 2, 2022 3:35 PM

Gallium nitride is not a battery material; it would be a switching material, and might be tolerant of higher energy-density architecture, but the actual chemistry or supercapacitor construction would not be affected.

Where do you propose to source the additional gallium supply?

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • 1,224 posts
Posted by Erik_Mag on Sunday, April 3, 2022 12:25 AM

Overmod

Gallium nitride is not a battery material; it would be a switching material, and might be tolerant of higher energy-density architecture, but the actual chemistry or supercapacitor construction would not be affected.

I will be highly interested to see Erik's opinions on this.

GaN is not, as far as I know, a battery material. It is, however, a Wide Band Gap (WBG) semiconductor, where the band gap refers to the amount of energy to dislodge an electron. The band gap is also related to high temperature performance. Siicon has a wider band gap than germanium, and silicon transistors/IC's can operate with junction temperature of 150 to 175C, where germanium devices would fail at less than 100C.

The two most common WBG semiconductors are Silicon Carbide (AKA carborundum) and Gallium Nititride (SiC and GaN for short). The advantage of SiC and GaN is that for a given resistivity for doped materials, the breakdwn voltages for SiC and GaN are much higher than for plain silicon. This allows for a much smaller device for a given current rating and breakdown voltage. In addition to taking up less physical space, the smaller size also means less output capacitance, which then leads to lower switching losses. One final advantage of the WBG's is that the instrinsic body diodes have a much shorter reverse recovery time (Trr is about 40 nano-seconds for a 1200V SiC MOSFET versus abou 1,000 nano-seconds dor a silicon MOSFET). The dramatically lower Trr for SiC means that an SiC part can switch much faster than a silicon part and have much lower switching loss. The lower switching loss means less cooling needed for a given power output.

GaN has an even higher breakdown voltage for a give resistivity than SiC, but SiC has a higher thermal conductivity GaN or silicon (good for high power devices). For locomotive traction inverters, SiC will will likely prevail over GaN, though the opposite is true for items like laptop power supplies. An example, the highest voltage rating for a GanFET is ~1,000V, where you can buy 3,300V rated SiCFETs

The advantage of WBG devices for battery operation is that it's easier to work with the near constant voltage output of batteries along with much smaller packages for the inverter.

Silicon has been touted as a new materials for battery electrodes, where the slicon structures would serve as cages for the Litium ions and thus allow for a larger number of charge/discharge cycles.

  • Member since
    May 2022
  • 6 posts
Posted by MaxTheRailfan123 on Thursday, May 19, 2022 2:13 PM

I have a feeling that UP will like the EMD electrics better than the GEs. It looks like the EMD ones will come in a somwhat modified sd70m shell which UP seems to really like there SD70Ms and many of which are still in service. Plus, I think EMD's juole locmotives are already operating elswhere. If I am wrong correct me.

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,752 posts
Posted by YoHo1975 on Monday, May 23, 2022 11:46 AM

EMD has sold them and they've been in revenue service down in South America.

Wabtec has test units that have been out and about. So EMD is slightly ahead of the game in terms of sold and operating units. 

  • Member since
    September 2002
  • From: Harrison Township, Michigan
  • 1,457 posts
Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Wednesday, May 25, 2022 8:49 PM
 

jeffhergert

I recall reading the Railway Age article about Wabtec's road electrics.  The second generation uses the overhead method to be able to recharge faster.  I think it said the time was about cut in half from 8 hours to 4 hours using the pan for the initial charge.

Somewhere on the employee's site, Lance was saying they weren't convinced (yet) about the merits of battery powered road units.

I myself think battery power has it's place.  But it's not practical for some transportation applications, especially heavy duty ones.  I think the current (no pun intended) electric battery powered fever that is sweeping the country is more about salesmenship to an audience that is urban and used to 30 second sound bites.

Jeff

 

I agree. I don't see the practicality of BEL in linehaul. However yard and local duty they will excel.

People are struck by "green energy" delusion as well. Diesel will still be more cost effective and efficient in road use.

 
Rahhhhhhhhh!!!!
  • Member since
    September 2003
  • 19,023 posts
Posted by Overmod on Thursday, May 26, 2022 12:04 PM

"Battery-electrics in linehaul" is a fad, the railroad equivalent of autonomous electric class 8 trucks, or electrified rakes of 'integral train' cars with no logical place for a pan.

On the other hand, they do so much so well for a dual-mode-lite consist I find it amazing there isn't more enthusiasm... they can provide much of the functionality, including punctate electrification, for relatively small locomotive conversion cost.

  • Member since
    January 2002
  • From: Canterlot
  • 8,949 posts
Posted by zugmann on Thursday, May 26, 2022 1:29 PM

SD60MAC9500
I agree. I don't see the practicality of BEL in linehaul. However yard and local duty they will excel. People are struck by "green energy" delusion as well. Diesel will still be more cost effective and efficient in road use.

We're going to need more locomotives.  Many of our local/yard engines get passed from one job to another - no time to recharge. 

  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of

my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Central Iowa
  • 6,311 posts
Posted by jeffhergert on Friday, May 27, 2022 4:11 PM

I think the intent of battery-electrics in line haul will be to have them sandwiched between regular diesel-electrics.  They can then be kept charged from the mother units (as well has recharging from dynamic braking from itself and the mothers) and provide traction and dynamic braking.  This won't eliminate emissions, but will reduce them.

I think, however, that battery-electrics are being sold to the general public as a "stand alone" power source.  That trains will be powered only by battery-electrics when the reality will be different.

I would think for those large yards near major metropolitan areas where electric use is desired, it would be better to string wire over the yard leads where the engines do most of their operating.  Have an engine that has a battery back up for when it needs to leave energized wire, such as to/from the lead to a servicing facility (which could also have catenary for recharging) or to go into the bowl of a yard to retrieve a car(s).

Such engines (straight electric/battery) would be restricted to yard service.  But I'm sure some of these yards would have enough such assignments to warrant semi-permanent assignment of specialized power.  Especially when the goal is more of a public relations/we're doing our part to save the world campaign.

Jeff  

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,020 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, May 27, 2022 8:11 PM

Zug,Jeff.  Be sure to have a quick exit strategy in case this happens.  Everyone you need to remember this.  Do not charge or use when a Li ion battery is hot.

(2) An Electric Bus Caught Fire After Battery Explosion in Paris - YouTube

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 22,733 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Friday, May 27, 2022 8:59 PM

Lithium batters are FAR FROM MASTERED.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    January 2019
  • 1,224 posts
Posted by Erik_Mag on Friday, May 27, 2022 10:25 PM

BaltACD

Lithium batters are FAR FROM MASTERED.

The battery fire incidents reminds me of the early days of steam boats and early locomotive boilers. There has been a good deal of progress in learning what causes Li-ion battery fires, but a lot of progress is needed in preventing battery fires.

 

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,752 posts
Posted by YoHo1975 on Thursday, August 4, 2022 1:26 PM

I don't know if this is the best thread on the Joule, but I'll use it.

 

As seen on Loconotes, EMD has released more details on the full Joule line and Artists renditions (I assume) of the SD70J and SD40JR

As suspected, they are in traditional reused North American bodies.

https://www.progressrail.com/en/Segments/RollingStock/Locomotives/FreightLocomotives/EMDJoule.html

 

I downloaded the screenshots of the artist renditions which are not on that page, but not sure how to upload them on this site.

 

 The question I have as are these using AC traction or DC traction. the Artist rendition shows the SD40JR with standard HT-C trucks and the SD70J appears to have standard HTCR bogies.

Dave said in this thread https://cs.trains.com/trn/f/741/p/287983/3338736.aspx

That the smaller AC motors could be made to fit, but that he would be surprised if they did so.

 

Once again, begs the question what bogies are under these units.

Of course, the SD40JR has no fuel tank in that picture so I guess if they wanted to they could stuff HTCR trucks under it. 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 22,733 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, August 4, 2022 3:02 PM

YoHo1975
I don't know if this is the best thread on the Joule, but I'll use it. 

As seen on Loconotes, EMD has released more details on the full Joule line and Artists renditions (I assume) of the SD70J and SD40JR

As suspected, they are in traditional reused North American bodies.

https://www.progressrail.com/en/Segments/RollingStock/Locomotives/FreightLocomotives/EMDJoule.html 

I downloaded the screenshots of the artist renditions which are not on that page, but not sure how to upload them on this site. 

 The question I have as are these using AC traction or DC traction. the Artist rendition shows the SD40JR with standard HT-C trucks and the SD70J appears to have standard HTCR bogies.

Dave said in this thread https://cs.trains.com/trn/f/741/p/287983/3338736.aspx

That the smaller AC motors could be made to fit, but that he would be surprised if they did so. 

Once again, begs the question what bogies are under these units.

Of course, the SD40JR has no fuel tank in that picture so I guess if they wanted to they could stuff HTCR trucks under it. 

SD70J-BB sounds like it will be a BIG MoFo.  525K on rail.  Max speed of 50 MPH may be a downer in many US use situations.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    July 2008
  • 1,951 posts
Posted by rdamon on Thursday, August 4, 2022 5:33 PM

BaltACD

SD70J-BB sounds like it will be a BIG MoFo.  525K on rail.  Max speed of 50 MPH may be a downer in many US use situations.

 

 
BB? is that for Brazil?
  • Member since
    January 2015
  • 2,236 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Thursday, August 4, 2022 9:01 PM

At the bottom of the SD70J-BB column where it says "gauge" it says "Standard, narrow, broad".

Probably if a standard or broad gauge they might be on a C-C configuration.

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • From: Bridgman, MI
  • 203 posts
Posted by bogie_engineer on Thursday, August 4, 2022 10:29 PM

rdamon

 

BB? is that for Brazil?
 

BB means it uses the 4-axle GBB truck first used in Brazil under the SD70ACe-BB. EMD won't ever do a DD with the 4-axle rigid truck in the future as it's just too hard on the rails in curves and too expensive to make the huge cast truck frame now since pattern was scrapped in the late 1980's.

Even though the brochure doesn't show a picture of the SD70J-BB with the 4-axle trucks I'm quite sure it will use a standard gauge derivative of the GBB used in Brazil.

As far as which truck will be used on the SD70J, that must be an HTCR with the same motors as an SD70ACe given the 200kLbs. starting TE. As far as the SD40JR, I really don't know since the 96:15 gear ratio with 50 mph max speed I don't recognize. Perhaps it's a new smaller AC motor that will fit in the HT-C. Since it only shows that model as for standard gauge, I suspect it will reuse the HT-C truck and perhaps DC motors with a new gear ratio.

Dave

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • 2,236 posts
Posted by kgbw49 on Friday, August 5, 2022 9:45 PM

So where does one expect to see an SD70J-BB with 50 mph limit in use in the US?

Captive service between Barstow and Bakersfield and Barstow and the Port of LA/LB, perhaps?

Lifting grain, coal and oil over Mullan Pass on the former NP, perhaps?

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,752 posts
Posted by YoHo1975 on Tuesday, August 9, 2022 12:35 AM

I was completely wrong.

Found Hi res images on Progress Rail's Twitter feed.

 

That is the new cab from the T4 with the teardrop windows and the the fabricated trucks

https://twitter.com/Progress_Rail/status/1554590293135081472/photo/1

 

Does not answer the question on what the SD40J is really riding on.

 

Also, I wonder if there's changes to the frame such that they couldn't reuse older locos. 

 

In the Automotive world it's generally the case that the design is better if new from the ground up. My going in assumption was that that would not hold for locomotives, because why would it. 

 

  • Member since
    July 2008
  • 1,951 posts
Posted by rdamon on Tuesday, August 9, 2022 12:27 PM

Maybe UP will trade in some SD60s

https://www.railpictures.net/photo/807400/

 

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy