Trains.com

Seems that DIesal is about a doller and change higher then Gasoline

4958 views
25 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    March 2016
  • 1,568 posts
Seems that DIesal is about a doller and change higher then Gasoline
Posted by CandOforprogress2 on Sunday, May 28, 2017 8:40 AM

Gas at my local pump is 2.87 or so and Deisal 3.87? at what price point does deisal fail to make sence? Oh and btw Coal is 27.00 a Ton and has more BTU then both gas and Diesal

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 10:14 AM

CandOforprogress2
Gas at my local pump is 2.87 or so and Deisal 3.87? at what price point does deisal fail to make sence? Oh and btw Coal is 27.00 a Ton and has more BTU then both gas and Diesal

You must be in PA.  Made the trek to Kansas and back from Maryland this month - when gas in the states traversed were in the $2.12 - $2.19 range in PA it was $2.75

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 11:58 AM

Same in suburban Chicago, where the cheapest gasoline (87 octane) is about 2.45 while Diesel fuel is 2.25-2.35.  Maybe CandO should get a Stanley Steamer to burn his cheap coal?  Or some of his alcohol?

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    December 2007
  • From: Georgia USA SW of Atlanta
  • 11,919 posts
Posted by blue streak 1 on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 5:10 PM

CANDO  First edit your original to correct spelling of Diesel.

It may be that we first need to check the amount of taxes on diesel compared to Gasoline.  Here in Georgia when total Gasoline prices are compared to Diesel price seems about same.  Isn't the US diesel tax higher than gasoline ?

These diesel taxes will not be applied in many states to RRs ( Alabama got court approval for theirs on RRs )

Of course Amtrak has to pay no taxes on diesel anywhere.

The Amtrak MPR for March showed  average diesel costs-------

Period         actual       Budget      Last year 

March        $1.76        $1.82       $1.33

FY 2017       1.76           1.72         1.44

How much do freight RRs pay ? ? ?

 

Just think how much more a private operator of passenger trains may have to pay.  Thinking of Brightline running 2 Chargers.  Amtrak publishs approximately 2.2 gallons per mile,  source MPR

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • 1,568 posts
Posted by CandOforprogress2 on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 6:01 PM

BaltACD
Yes as a matter of fact I am in Metamora across from Port Jervis NY

 

 

 
CandOforprogress2
Gas at my local pump is 2.87 or so and Deisal 3.87? at what price point does deisal fail to make sence? Oh and btw Coal is 27.00 a Ton and has more BTU then both gas and Diesal

 

You must be in PA.  Made the trek to Kansas and back from Maryland this month - when gas in the states traversed were in the $2.12 - $2.19 range in PA it was $2.75

 

  • Member since
    April 2016
  • 1,447 posts
Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 6:29 PM

CANDO here is why fuel prices can vary so much state to state.  This is a listing of the Fuel tax applied to all Diesel fuel state to state Nationwide.  So if you live in the border areas of PA it is cheaper to go across the stateline to get fuel than get it in PA.   http://www.truckmiles.com/FuelPrices.asp When almost 75 cents a gallon is state fuel tax you begin to start to avoid getting fuel in a state.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, May 30, 2017 9:01 PM

Shadow the Cats owner
CANDO here is why fuel prices can vary so much state to state.  This is a listing of the Fuel tax applied to all Diesel fuel state to state Nationwide.  So if you live in the border areas of PA it is cheaper to go across the stateline to get fuel than get it in PA.   http://www.truckmiles.com/FuelPrices.asp When almost 75 cents a gallon is state fuel tax you begin to start to avoid getting fuel in a state.

I got trapped into fueling in PA on my outbound trip to Kansas - I made sure that didn't happen on the return trip.

Will be going to upstate NY near the end of June - unfortunately there is no way I can make the trip without getting fuel in PA.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: St. Paul, Minnesota
  • 2,116 posts
Posted by Boyd on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 12:39 AM

Diesel fuel used to cost less than gasoline. That changed 1-2 years after the economy dived in 2008. Diesel fuel used to be refined from heavier thicker crude oil. That kind of oil can be as thick as mud. The EPA tightened emissions for Diesel fueled vehicles so the refineries had to use lighter more expensive oil to make diesel in order to reduce particulates going into the air we breathe. Gasoline is refined from light sweet crude. When you lookup what price a barrel of oil is selling for, that price is for light sweet crude which is the best and most expensive crude oil you can buy. From other stories I have read on other sites the state of Pennsylvania doesn't sound friendly to travelers whether they are refueling or trying to obey traffic laws. 

Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • 62 posts
Posted by WM7471 on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 9:01 AM

What you pay at the pump for diesel and what the railroads pay are two different things.  The railroads buy fuel in huge quantities each year, litterally millions of gallons per year.  I have read that the only organization that uses more diesel fuel per year than Union Pacific is the U.S. Navy. 

I'm sure the railroads employ brokers to buy oil futures to lock in low prices, months or years in advance. 

When you buy fuel like that...  They give you Green Stamps!

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • 707 posts
Posted by tdmidget on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 11:51 AM

Boyd

Diesel fuel used to cost less than gasoline. That changed 1-2 years after the economy dived in 2008. Diesel fuel used to be refined from heavier thicker crude oil. That kind of oil can be as thick as mud. The EPA tightened emissions for Diesel fueled vehicles so the refineries had to use lighter more expensive oil to make diesel in order to reduce particulates going into the air we breathe. Gasoline is refined from light sweet crude. When you lookup what price a barrel of oil is selling for, that price is for light sweet crude which is the best and most expensive crude oil you can buy. From other stories I have read on other sites the state of Pennsylvania doesn't sound friendly to travelers whether they are refueling or trying to obey traffic laws. 

 

Please don't post BS about something you know nothing about. Refineries are built for specific feedstocks. You don't just switch to a radically different feedstock. The increase in Diesel costs is due to the low sulfur requirement.

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: St. Paul, Minnesota
  • 2,116 posts
Posted by Boyd on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 12:04 PM

The basics of what I said is that the production of diesel fuel had to be switched from heavy crude to light sweet crude.

And don't be such a smart ass. 

Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.

RME
  • Member since
    March 2016
  • 2,073 posts
Posted by RME on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 12:18 PM

Boyd
The basics of what I said is that the production of diesel fuel had to be switched from heavy crude to light sweet crude.

But you said it was to reduce particulates, without explaining why, and seemed to be indicating it was the viscosity or hydrocarbon composition of the feedstock, not the ex-sulfur-bridge content, that was the explanation for the cost increase.

If explaining technical subjects for general consumption, you sometimes need to go into detail rather than making statements that seem like BS until explicated.  It might be wise at this point to discuss some of the points, such as exactly what the relationship between sulfur content and particulate generation is, and what changes needed to be made in reformulated ULSD for injector lubricosity.

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: St. Paul, Minnesota
  • 2,116 posts
Posted by Boyd on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 12:32 PM

Looks like I'm among some rivet counter high detail perfectionists. I have other things to do today without diving deep into details. Call my reply above a snapshot. Sounds like you are seeking a college course deep down into the mud answer. 

Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.

RME
  • Member since
    March 2016
  • 2,073 posts
Posted by RME on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 12:50 PM

Boyd
Looks like I'm among some rivet counter high detail perfectionists.

No, just people who expect folks making definitive-sounding statements about technical subjects to know how to back them up.

(We make allowances for the MG fan's social skills; he has an engineer's slight patience for people he thinks are BSing)

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: St. Paul, Minnesota
  • 2,116 posts
Posted by Boyd on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 1:07 PM

Well besides working about 33 hours a week I have other projects more important to do than please you with the deep details you think I'm obligated give here in book long form. I've seen several threads that I have started in this forum get lost in a jungle of details not related to the original post and the thread ends up losing all things interesting that I thought the title of thread brought to the forum. 

Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.

RME
  • Member since
    March 2016
  • 2,073 posts
Posted by RME on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 1:50 PM

Boyd
I've seen several threads that I have started in this forum get lost in a jungle of details not related to the original post and the thread ends up losing all things interesting

The interesting thing here was that you were explaining why the cost of diesel had increased over the cost of 'regular' gasoline, and actually going into some of the technological reasons.  That remains interesting, and should be valuable knowledge even for the OP of this thread (who, I think, was more interested in a rant about high pump prices).

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: St. Paul, Minnesota
  • 2,116 posts
Posted by Boyd on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 2:09 PM

RME

 

 
Boyd
I've seen several threads that I have started in this forum get lost in a jungle of details not related to the original post and the thread ends up losing all things interesting

 

The interesting thing here was that you were explaining why the cost of diesel had increased over the cost of 'regular' gasoline, and actually going into some of the technological reasons.  That remains interesting, and should be valuable knowledge even for the OP of this thread (who, I think, was more interested in a rant about high pump prices).

 

Thank you, now I think we are moving forward. 

Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 3:11 PM

Diesel fuel is generally 10-20 Euro cents cheaper per liter than 'regular' gasoline.  In Germany, about 1.14 € for Diesel vs 1.35 € for Benzin (gasoline).  I do not think the reason is a tax differential.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    April 2016
  • 1,447 posts
Posted by Shadow the Cats owner on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 3:57 PM

The difference between Light and heavy crude is how much of the lighter more valuable compounds like Gasoline benzene and items like that are in it.  Sweet and Sour crudes grades are used to describe the amount of sulphur in the oil.  Brent North Sea is a Heavy Sweet Crude.  Texas oil tends to be Light Sweet crude. The oil sands are a very heavy Sour crude.  Bakken Shale is a Very Light Sweet crude to the point it has to be blended with a heavier grade feedstock to be used.  It has a weight of API rating of 42 Texas is in the range of 51 most refineries are set up to handle 48-60.   Sorry you learn a heck of a lot hauling Haz Mat and having trucks in and out of refineries all over the place.  

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Wednesday, May 31, 2017 6:48 PM

WTI (West Texas Intermediate) usually trades lower than Brent on the spot and futures market. Today's closes were $48.66 vs $51.08.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • 305,205 posts
Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, June 1, 2017 9:10 AM

schlimm
Diesel fuel is generally 10-20 Euro cents cheaper per liter than 'regular' gasoline. In Germany, about 1.14 € for Diesel vs 1.35 € for Benzin (gasoline). I do not think the reason is a tax differential.

First, regular gasoine is 95 octane in Germany. And second, the price difference between gas and diesel comes from lower diesel taxes.

It started with tax reductions for the farming industry. It was extended to trucking and later to all diesel cars to promote CO2 reduction.
Regards, Volker

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Thursday, June 1, 2017 2:20 PM

Fuel taxes in Germany are €0.4704 per litre for ultra-low sulphur Diesel and €0.6545 per litre for conventional unleaded gas.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • 1,568 posts
Posted by CandOforprogress2 on Thursday, June 1, 2017 6:15 PM

All this talk about sweer and sour oil is making me thirsty. Crude Oil is used as medicine and can be consumed in small quintitys -

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22640367

https://www.quora.com/What-effects-would-crude-oil-have-on-a-human-if-they-swallow-some-Is-it-poisonous

People even bathe in Crude Oil-

http://www.businessinsider.com/crude-oil-baths-in-azerbaijan-2015-7

  • Member since
    July 2006
  • 9,610 posts
Posted by schlimm on Friday, June 2, 2017 4:57 PM

CandOforprogress2

All this talk about sweer and sour oil is making me thirsty. Crude Oil is used as medicine and can be consumed in small quintitys -

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22640367

https://www.quora.com/What-effects-would-crude-oil-have-on-a-human-if-they-swallow-some-Is-it-poisonous

People even bathe in Crude Oil-

http://www.businessinsider.com/crude-oil-baths-in-azerbaijan-2015-7

 

I encourage you to give it a try.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

  • Member since
    September 2013
  • 6,199 posts
Posted by Miningman on Friday, June 2, 2017 7:17 PM

Can you smoke in the tub? 

  • Member since
    December 2005
  • From: Cardiff, CA
  • 2,930 posts
Posted by erikem on Friday, June 2, 2017 10:37 PM

Shadow the Cats owner

.....Sorry you learn a heck of a lot hauling Haz Mat and having trucks in and out of refineries all over the place.  

 

No need to aplogize, your post was quite informative. I knew what sweet and sour meant, but wasn't fully aware of the API ratings of WTI and Bakken or the API range refineries were set up for.

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy