OvermodYou still haven't given any serious explanation ...
And "serious explanation" doesn't mean "complete explanation". The latter would have been impossible even in 1940.
I confess I was incorrect on using the last C&O steam to judge the Alleghenies. But I maintain my position on the N&W decisions vs C&O's and VIrginian's, rergarding road power.
Of course, neither the UP Challenger nor the Big Boy were designed for drag freight service.
kgbw49 In an alternate universe it would have been interesting to see how an Allegheny would have fared over Sherman Hill and the Wasatch Range. I know, I know, different fuel, different builder allegiance, 110,000 lbs tractive effort instead of the Big Boy's 135,000 lbs tractive effort, 12 drivers instead of 16 drivers. But 13% more tractive effort than a Challenger. I am just saying it would have been interesting to see an Allegheny give Sherman Hill and the Wasatch Range a go where there was more fast freight opportuniity and a rugged test. In an alternate universe.
In an alternate universe it would have been interesting to see how an Allegheny would have fared over Sherman Hill and the Wasatch Range.
I know, I know, different fuel, different builder allegiance, 110,000 lbs tractive effort instead of the Big Boy's 135,000 lbs tractive effort, 12 drivers instead of 16 drivers.
But 13% more tractive effort than a Challenger.
I am just saying it would have been interesting to see an Allegheny give Sherman Hill and the Wasatch Range a go where there was more fast freight opportuniity and a rugged test.
In an alternate universe.
I think an Allegheny could have replaced a Big Boy or Challenger out west with acceptable results.
But neither a Big Boy or an ALCO Challenger could have replaced the Allegheny, or the N&W Class A, in the east.
The Big Boy is not "nimble" enough for Appalachia, and as you point out, the Challenger lacks the power.
I think the C&O/LIMA and the N&W understood the "nimble" issue when staying with 12 drivers, and that is born out by the B&O experiances with EM-1's at higher speeds.
Sheldon
BaltACD, it is interesting that it was the end of the EM-1 on passenger schedules.
The N&W A even with its two-wheel lead truck worked out well on varnish, particularly The Tennessean, and of course UP Challengers with their four-wheel lead trucks handled a lot of varnish particularly on the Los Angeles & Salt Lake.
In 1947 the B&O had a mail train being hauled by an EM-1 #7625 that derailed near Oakland, MD at 40 MPH with a cause listed as "Irregularities in alinement, surface and gage of track combined with slack closure". Subsequently the B&O rarely if ever used EM-1's on passenger schedules.
https://planeandtrainwrecks.com/Document?db=DOT-RAILROAD&query=(select+130+(byhits+(field+RAILROAD+(anyof+BALTIMORE))))
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I think some people just mistake bringing math into a discussion like this as an intention to disparage a classic and well loved locomotive design that in several statistics remains at the head of the class where steam locomotive design goes.
One can state that these extremely powerful machines didn't get to fully show off their capabilities and that in the duties that they did get assigned, something smaller and cheaper could've handled the job more efficiently, while still being in awe at what Lima produced.
Lima designed them as fast freight articulateds, even if they perhaps knew that C&O wasn't going to assign them to such duties (the builder's of course wanted to sell the bigger and more expensive designs). It's a testament to just how good of a machine it was that it was still a capable slow speed lugger, but it seems quite factually clear that it wasn't the type's forte.
Or implied snottery.
You still haven't given any serious explanation of how C&O was using the Alleghenies effectively well below their horsepower peak, but you sure can disparage anyone trying to point out why that's unadvisable, with no better argument than mockery.
I expect better from you, of all people.
OvermodWE who are interested students of steam technology are, in fact, qualified to assess ...
They did need more after WWII, coming back for 15 more in 1948.
daveklepperThe last steam locomotive built for rhe C&O was not an Allegheny! Proves the issue.
The Alleghenies were large, specialized power, and there were enough of them by the end of WWII to fulfil demand. (We can leave aside any discussion of whether C&O lacked sufficient high-speed traffic to use them 'best') They are very large locomotives, in a weight class that costs extra just to crew, and to my knowledge C&O never tried as NYC did with Niagaras to use sliding-pressure firing to try getting fuel and water rate 'rightsized' on smaller trains.
Certainly C&O continued with steam 'later' -- the L2 Hudson's with poppet valves, the 1948 Greenbriers, the experiment with all-welded boilers, and yes, the M-1s are evidence. But they did not need more 2-6-6-6s, all the way to the end of steam construction. (I confess I'm amused that after the Allegheny, ahem, overweight issue, C&O went for Greenbriers instead of Col. Townsend's 4-8-6 of the future with Franklin type C and double-Belpaire...)
The last order of 2-6-6-2s were certainly equipped with mod cons like overfire jets; they were in my opinion a well-reasoned overall purchase decision even in 1949, and C&O certainly continued using them long after it acknowledged that, say, it was time for even new 0-8-0s to go.
The PRR had a comparable concern with the Q2s, which were perfectly right for heavy-as-possible wartime trains run with the priority speed that justified divided drive. But running them below that speed left 'other alternatives' -- first the J1s and thereafter the early diesels -- at least equal in performance at lower expense.
timzUs fans know more than C&O did ... guess that notion is congenial enough to live forever.
BaltACD daveklepper ... The last steam locomotive built for rhe C&O was not an Allegheny! Proves the issue. Steam engine were not general purpose like diesels are. There were engines for over the road service. There were engines for mine shifter service. There were engines for yard switching service. The 1309 was a mine shifter locomotive - service that was too heavy for a 'normal' 0-8-0 or 0-10-0 yard engines in locations that were too constrined for over the road power such as the Alleghenies. The only thing the last engines the C&O ordered proves was that they needed engines for mine service.
daveklepper ... The last steam locomotive built for rhe C&O was not an Allegheny! Proves the issue.
The last steam locomotive built for rhe C&O was not an Allegheny! Proves the issue.
Steam engine were not general purpose like diesels are. There were engines for over the road service. There were engines for mine shifter service. There were engines for yard switching service.
The 1309 was a mine shifter locomotive - service that was too heavy for a 'normal' 0-8-0 or 0-10-0 yard engines in locations that were too constrined for over the road power such as the Alleghenies.
The only thing the last engines the C&O ordered proves was that they needed engines for mine service.
And, as I said before, from the research I have been able to do, that last batch of H-6 locomotives likely cost less and was delivered faster than similar diesel power.
From what I can figure out, 1309 and her sisters likely cost about $170,000 each, or less, since Baldwin was probably happy to use up some parts and materials on hand.
It would have required two or three GP7's, or Alco RS units to replace each H-6, at a unit cost of about $140,000. $170,000 for a loco your crews know and like, and which you already have infrastructure to operate, vs $420,000 for something new and untested on that part of your system.
In 1949, seems like a no brainer to me why they stayed with the H-6.
N&W built its own steam power so it could make the effort to come up with a design that was closer to the needs of the specific service. However, it was an outlier in staying away from diesels as long as it did and gave up on steam when it became increasingly difficult to maintain it properly.
daveklepper... The last steam locomotive built for rhe C&O was not an Allegheny! Proves the issue.
daveklepper The last steam locomotive built for rhe C&O was not an Allegheny! Proves the issue.
The last steam locomotive built for the N&W was an 0-8-0. Does that mean the Ys, Js and As were unsuccessful--NO!
Excuse me, but the Norfolk and Western weighed in with the railfans on this issue in their choice of power for similar services, and their steam lasted longer, complimented by servicing facilities for quicker turn-around, and operations that were both customer-responsive and precision.
Yes, the N&W knew morre about steam-locomotive design than the the C&O and Virginian.
OvermodIt's not rocket science...
OvermodC&O was the railroad that couldn't figure out...
timz Overmod they were fundamentally ill-suited to the use C&O appears to have generally put them to. Too bad you weren't around to tell them. "Fundamentally ill-suited ... golly! You're right! Thanks for straightening us out."
Overmod they were fundamentally ill-suited to the use C&O appears to have generally put them to.
Too bad you weren't around to tell them. "Fundamentally ill-suited ... golly! You're right! Thanks for straightening us out."
It's not rocket science to figure that a locomotive routinely operated over 20mph below its peak horsepower range is losing money; it's not rocket science that the additional cost to build a locomotive to have its horsepower peak at high speed is a comparatively poor capital investment.
C&O was the railroad that couldn't figure out that loading a PRR T1 with two extra cars because of its nominal horsepower rating wouldn't cause a short-stroke engine to stall -- or is there something wrong with Dave Stephenson or me pointing out how that's wack?
Leo_Ames... A good example of this were Western Maryland's modern Challengers. Their modernized and much older 2-10-0's ended up being used on the same assignments, able to get similar tonnage over the same grades in a similar amount of time. The Challenger's performance advantages were largely nullified by the assignments and territory it operated in, although its modern design presumably yielded a significant savings on coal and water compared to the 2-10-0's. Yet at higher speeds their Challengers obviously could've ran circles around the much older 2-10-0's.
A good example of this were Western Maryland's modern Challengers. Their modernized and much older 2-10-0's ended up being used on the same assignments, able to get similar tonnage over the same grades in a similar amount of time.
The Challenger's performance advantages were largely nullified by the assignments and territory it operated in, although its modern design presumably yielded a significant savings on coal and water compared to the 2-10-0's. Yet at higher speeds their Challengers obviously could've ran circles around the much older 2-10-0's.
From books I have read about the WM, the Challengers could not outrun their financial hit on the WM finances. It is my understanding the locomotives were mothballed two years before their financial commitments ended. WM could afford to operate the locomotives or pay for them - but not both.
If a different design could haul more tonnage both faster and cheaper on the runs that the C&O assigned them to, I don't find that unfair. Steam experts in the railfan hobby have often talked about how they were miscast, such as Robert Le Massena.
I don't think anyone would want to change history. They were beautiful, powerful, and efficient machines. I think railfans and likely those that worked on them were both glad that they existed. The C&O naturally was proud of the class, as evidenced by them saving two examples for posterity.
Pointing out that they rarely got a chance to take full advantage of their capabilities isn't a slur. But math and physics don't lie and the design wasn't as tailored for the duties it found itself in (coal drags or working heavy trains in the mountains) as some others would've been.
Somehow I feature R.R. Young would not have listened to that criticism.
Overmodthey were fundamentally ill-suited to the use C&O appears to have generally put them to.
Like a handful of other bigger roads, the C&O famously resisted the diesel well after most Class 1's had decided it was the future and that dieselization in an as fast as economically possible manner was the path forward.
They made a lot of money hauling coal, it was cheap to burn in their fireboxes, and they didn't want to upset coal interests that also were their customers. And I don't know if it's the case, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they had a company owned mine to supply their coal, adding to the appeal of continuing to burn it as a fuel.
These articulateds for mine runs, just like their other late 1940's orders for 2-6-6-6's, 2-8-4's, 4-6-4's, 4-8-4's, and the 0-8-0's that ended up being sold to N&W in short order around 1950 or so when they were just a year or two old, these and the three steam turbine electrics were all produced before that shift had happened in C&O's management. Heck, even the brand new Spartan and Badger burned coal in their boilers when they were launched in the early 1950's.
Hopefully my recollections are accurate, but as I recall the gist of how such a sudden change came to be was due to the coal miner strikes happening at the end of the 1940's. Due to the uncertainty and rising cost of locomotive coal, the C&O bought some road diesels instead of new steam power in 1950 (F7's and GP7's, iirc). They liked the results so much with EMD's latest road power that they changed course almost immediately.
CSSHEGEWISCH Going in the other direction, why did C&O buy 10 (down from 25) H-6's when dieselization was well under way?
Going in the other direction, why did C&O buy 10 (down from 25) H-6's when dieselization was well under way?
I have often wondered that, butbI think I know the answer. Price and availability. I bet they were cheaper and could be delivered sooner. And the crews knew and liked the earlier versions.
Other roads brought steam out of mothballs several times because the diesel builders could not deliver fast enough.
Just a thought I had about this years ago,
Overmod In my opinion the Allegheny design was the 'next step up' from a T-class 2-10-4, and since most of the 'overweight' was in the complicated system that allowed free high-speed running of the locomotives, it is pretty clear that C&O wanted big locomotives that weren't limited to drag service at drag speeds. It might be added that it's at least possible that C&O saw wartime fast heavy manifest traffic 'coming'. As on the PRR, where there wasn't much advantage of a Q2 over a T-class clone on a 50mph railroad, but a very clear one for 150-car trains at war expedient speed, C&O might have wanted a more 'multipurpose' engine than a more "appropriate" 2-8-8-4 double Kanawha. I defer here to authors like timz who have access to sources in the literature that discuss this. Something I find interesting is the decision to build large and untried steam turbines (on Baldwin's word that they understood these things better than Carleton Steins!) for their Cincinnati superstreamliner instead of doing what N&W did -- I think for the same actual reason -- by putting lightweight Timken roller rods on the last class A 2-6-6-4s. Certainly Chessie was no stranger to these: 614 famously had them in 1948. Whether or not C&O 'found a place' to use the engines expediently after 1945, they were fundamentally ill-suited to the use C&O appears to have generally put them to. What I find surprising is that there appears to have been no effort to modify the Alleghenies with smaller drivers (which by that time would not have implied lower achievable road-speed balance and augment characteristics) in order to bring the horsepower peak -- which, remember, was fixed by the water rate rather than anything involving the driver adhesion -- to be achieved at typical coal-train speed.
In my opinion the Allegheny design was the 'next step up' from a T-class 2-10-4, and since most of the 'overweight' was in the complicated system that allowed free high-speed running of the locomotives, it is pretty clear that C&O wanted big locomotives that weren't limited to drag service at drag speeds.
It might be added that it's at least possible that C&O saw wartime fast heavy manifest traffic 'coming'. As on the PRR, where there wasn't much advantage of a Q2 over a T-class clone on a 50mph railroad, but a very clear one for 150-car trains at war expedient speed, C&O might have wanted a more 'multipurpose' engine than a more "appropriate" 2-8-8-4 double Kanawha. I defer here to authors like timz who have access to sources in the literature that discuss this.
Something I find interesting is the decision to build large and untried steam turbines (on Baldwin's word that they understood these things better than Carleton Steins!) for their Cincinnati superstreamliner instead of doing what N&W did -- I think for the same actual reason -- by putting lightweight Timken roller rods on the last class A 2-6-6-4s. Certainly Chessie was no stranger to these: 614 famously had them in 1948.
Whether or not C&O 'found a place' to use the engines expediently after 1945, they were fundamentally ill-suited to the use C&O appears to have generally put them to. What I find surprising is that there appears to have been no effort to modify the Alleghenies with smaller drivers (which by that time would not have implied lower achievable road-speed balance and augment characteristics) in order to bring the horsepower peak -- which, remember, was fixed by the water rate rather than anything involving the driver adhesion -- to be achieved at typical coal-train speed.
I think you summed this up pretty well. We know that most super power designs were extremely versatile, and the H-8 might well be the culmination of super power.
And I suspect your "guess" is correct, the C&O was optimistic about future business and advancements in the industry.
So fine tuning the H8 to one job would have hurt its abilty to possibly do all jobs.
I would still suggest that the C&O and N&W represent the ultimate evolution of steam, long after others had abandoned future development.
The H8 and the N&W A are favorite power here in my little train world.....
timzIn any case, no reason to assume a 16- or 20-driver engine was the best choice for coal up the Virginian's 0.2% grades east of Roanoke. (I forget -- did VGN have a 0.6% climb east of Roanoke?)
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