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Delivering the Big Boys

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Delivering the Big Boys
Posted by BEAUSABRE on Wednesday, September 7, 2022 6:56 PM
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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, September 7, 2022 7:34 PM

Interesting.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, September 7, 2022 7:39 PM

Pretty sure they went on the Erie with its high and wide clearances.  There's video of one of the big 'double diesels' (in primer, no less!) working her way across, later.

Now we can take up how Baldwin got the big ATSF locomotives out of Eddystone -- it had to involve water transport.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, September 8, 2022 8:37 AM

That WAS interesting!  And a very well-done production too!

I wish I could remember where I read it, but there was a very interesting magazine article 20 or so years ago by a former Alco employee who basically told the other side of the story, that is the logistics and procedures for delivering locomotives long distances from the Alco plant.  He was a ride-along factory rep on a number of those trips, the responsibilites really weren't that onerous and the trips were interesting adventures for him.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, September 8, 2022 9:18 AM

Flintlock76
That WAS interesting!  And a very well-done production too!

I wish I could remember where I read it, but there was a very interesting magazine article 20 or so years ago by a former Alco employee who basically told the other side of the story, that is the logistics and procedures for delivering locomotives long distances from the Alco plant.  He was a ride-along factory rep on a number of those trips, the responsibilites really weren't that onerous and the trips were interesting adventures for him.

I would have expected the manufacturers to have their own 'Riders' accompany the revenue movement of locomotives across the carriers to the buyers of the locomotives - to watch out for the proper oiling and other maintenance issues that could crop up as the locomotives were being hauled without steam for hundreds of miles.  Delivering a damaged product is not in the manufacturer's best interests.

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Thursday, September 8, 2022 10:35 AM

I think the riders wewre known as "locomotive messengers" - and the practice continued into the diesel age

NDG
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Posted by NDG on Thursday, September 8, 2022 11:39 AM

Locomotive Messengers rode in the Cab of the Locomotive they were assigned to.

A Coal Burning Caboose Stove with Utensils centered on the deck was supplied for cooking and warmth, it's stove pipe routed up through Roof Ventilator. 

Provisions acquired at Terminals.

Water was available almost everywhere in Steam Days.

Coal for Cabooses and Buildings.

 

Thank You.

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Posted by pennytrains on Thursday, September 8, 2022 6:07 PM

I find it interesting that the maker of the video seems a bit perplexed that they were shipped on railroads other NYC.  The Central was a good ALCO customer, but it's not like they owned ALCO.  The buyer was UP and in wartime the routing would have been controlled entirely by government agencies.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, September 8, 2022 6:40 PM

pennytrains
I find it interesting that the maker of the video seems a bit perplexed that they were shipped on railroads other NYC.  The Central was a good ALCO customer, but it's not like they owned ALCO.  The buyer was UP and in wartime the routing would have been controlled entirely by government agencies.

Interlocking Boards of Directors.  Suspect some ALCO Board member(s) may have had a seat on the NYC Board and vice versa - with 8 to 10 or more Board members, some of the linkages can go far afield.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, September 8, 2022 7:31 PM

BaltACD
Interlocking Boards of Directors.  Suspect some ALCO Board member(s) may have had a seat on the NYC Board and vice versa

It wouldn't surprise me at all to find the NYC and Alco had a symbiotic relationship, much like the PRR and Baldwin had.  Stands to reason really.

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Thursday, September 8, 2022 10:16 PM

I cann understand routing on the Erie due to clearances

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Posted by rixflix on Friday, September 9, 2022 9:50 AM

Did Erie have any clearance advantage west of Binghamton? I thought that applied to the mainline east of there. 

Rick

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Posted by timz on Friday, September 9, 2022 10:37 AM

Yeah, how about that? How far west was the Erie built with 6-ft gauge track?

Wonder if NY Central actually had overpasses west of Schenectady that would have hit a 4-8+8-4. I suspect the Central could have found a way.

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Friday, September 9, 2022 10:58 AM

You could always deflate the wheels

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Friday, September 9, 2022 11:07 AM

timz
How far west was the Erie built with 6-ft gauge track?

To Dunkirk NY in western NY on Lake Erie (West of Buffalo)

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Posted by pennytrains on Friday, September 9, 2022 6:54 PM

BEAUSABRE

You could always deflate the wheels

 

LaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh

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Posted by ATLANTIC CENTRAL on Friday, September 9, 2022 8:42 PM

Interesting video.

Comparatively, I guess it was pretty easy for LIMA to deliver the 60 Allegheny's to the C&O, less than 50 miles to the nearest C&O trackage.....

Sheldon

    

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Friday, September 9, 2022 9:54 PM

BEAUSABRE
 
timz
How far west was the Erie built with 6-ft gauge track?

To Dunkirk NY in western NY on Lake Erie (West of Buffalo)

 

IIRC, the Erie had a couple of 6-ft gauge connections on the western end.

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Posted by timz on Sunday, September 11, 2022 3:18 PM

One way or another, the Erie main mostly did have its reputed higher clearance. Hornell to Hammond was all good for 17 ft 6 in, except Kent to Marion was only 16-6.

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, September 11, 2022 5:28 PM

It might be interesting to find the actual clearance restrictions on the Water Level Route between Schenectady and the 'handoff' point to the Big Four.  I tend to suspect, although without objective proof, that there was more reason to route along the West Shore than just keeping out of the way of Great Steel Fleet traffic...

Everyone knows there was no need to deflate -- they would have used low-profile tires for the move!

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Posted by pennytrains on Sunday, September 11, 2022 7:08 PM

Oy!  Wink

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Posted by BigJim on Thursday, September 15, 2022 8:12 PM

I didn't find it interesting at all. Just a waste of time.  I would think that someone at the UPHS would know exactly how the BB's were routed. It may be that I have even read it in the Church book, but, I don't remember for sure.

.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, September 15, 2022 10:46 PM

BigJim
I didn't find it interesting at all. Just a waste of time.  I would think that someone at the UPHS would know exactly how the BB's were routed. It may be that I have even read it in the Church book, but, I don't remember for sure.

If the UPHS was on top of their game, they would find the waybill or freight bill for the movements - giving both the route and if the freight bill the cost of the movement.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, September 16, 2022 7:11 AM

Someone might check this, but Schenectady is not on the West Shore, so the "D&H" portion of this move might just be the few miles to connect.

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Friday, September 16, 2022 3:09 PM

BaltACD
If the UPHS was on top of their game, they would find the waybill or freight bill for the movemenSts - giving both the route and if the freight bill the cost of the movement.

IF anybody saved the paperwork. When I worked for IBM, the company had a three tiered records retention policy based on the legal department's input. Two years = immediate opeartional records. Seven years = legal and financial records Forever = Legal docunents like charters, minutes of Board meetings, etc. The last were stored in safes in Corporate Legal. The other two were shipped to Iron Mountain's storage facilities. When I worked in Corporate Finance, I knew the person who managed our account with Iron Mountain and the annual bill we paid for retaining a mountain of information was eye watering. Iron Mountain Facility Provided Data Storage Before The Cloud | The Daily 360 | The New York Times - Bing video The days when you could go into a railroad office and find payroll records from the 1880's and copies of waybills from 1910 (there was an article in Classic Trains about the experience of one employee working on the task of cleaning out such records and what he found stashed away - and I'm not exagerating with the dates above) ended in the Fifties and early Sixties when corporate America realized there was a cost to this - and. indeed, to the collection and retention of all types of information (the key question, does it improve business results? If not, why collect it and/or retain it?). Some things were taken home by emploees who were railfans or given to fans who asked, some went to libraries, museums and historical societies, the overwheming majority ended up in the dumpster. And don't expect to find it neatly cataloged. It will be one piece of paper in a box- one of many - of records labelled something like "Bills Paid - 1941" or something equally obscure.  No one seeing that in 1959 is going to open that box and go through it to see what it might contain. For one thing, there's no time. or manpower to do it. And in IBM's case, where there were literally thousands upon  thousands of boxes on pallets, the Two Year and Seven Year boxes would go to shredding automatically in year three and eight. So the likelihood that the Historical Society or railroad could find that waybill is  vanishingly small.

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Posted by pennytrains on Friday, September 16, 2022 6:43 PM

BEAUSABRE,

Reminds me of a great older movie titled "Fail Safe".  Ostensibly the film is about an American bomber accidentally being sent into Russia because of a computer glitch caused by the Soviets trying to jam the American radar.

But anyways, Walter Matthau plays a college professor doing consulting with the pentagon.  At a dinner party the topic of who would survive ww3 comes up and his answer is "convicts and file clerks."  Convicts, because the worst of them are deep underground, and file clerks pretty much for the same reasons.  Plus they're surrounded by hundreds of tons of paper.

Big Smile  Same me, different spelling!  Big Smile

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, September 16, 2022 9:02 PM

BEAUSABRE
 
BaltACD
If the UPHS was on top of their game, they would find the waybill or freight bill for the movemenSts - giving both the route and if the freight bill the cost of the movement. 

IF anybody saved the paperwork. When I worked for IBM, the company had a three tiered records retention policy based on the legal department's input. Two years = immediate opeartional records. Seven years = legal and financial records Forever = Legal docunents like charters, minutes of Board meetings, etc. The last were stored in safes in Corporate Legal. The other two were shipped to Iron Mountain's storage facilities. When I worked in Corporate Finance, I knew the person who managed our account with Iron Mountain and the annual bill we paid for retaining a mountain of information was eye watering. Iron Mountain Facility Provided Data Storage Before The Cloud | The Daily 360 | The New York Times - Bing video The days when you could go into a railroad office and find payroll records for the 1880's and copies of waybills from 1910 (there was an article in Classic Trains about the experience of one employee working on the task of cleaning out such records and what he found stashed away - and I'm not exagerating with dates above) ended in the Fifties and early Sixties when corporate America realized there was a cost to this - and. indeed, to the collection and retention of all types of information (the key question, does it improve business results? If not, why collect it and/or retain it?). Some things were taken home by emploees who were railfans or given to fans who asked, some went to libraries, museums and historical societies, the overwheming majority ended up inn the dumpster. And don't expect to find it neatly cataloged. It will be one piece of paper in a box- one of many - of records labelled something like "Bills Paid - 1941" or something equally obscure.  No one seeing that in 1959 is going to open that box and go through it to see what it might contain. For one thing, there's no time. or manpower to do it. And in IBM's case, where there were literally thousands upon  thousands of boxes on pallets, the Two Year and Seven Year boxes would go to shredding automatically in year three and eight. So the likelihood that the Historical Society or railroad has that waybill is just about vanishingly small.

I am well aware of how infinitesimal the likely hood of such operational 'paper' from the late 30's and early 40's is to survive into the 2020's.

I had managerial responsibilities in Chessie's Baltimore Terminal Services Center and am fully aware of what the retention rules are.  The Center itself only had space for a single year's  paper.  On a rotating 6 months basis those records would be transferred to the Camden Station Warehouse - up until the functions of the Services Center were moved to Jacksonvill and the Camden Station Warehouse was vacated for, in part, the offices of the Baltimore Orioles baseball team as the West side of the warehouse form a facade beyond the right field stands. 

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Posted by jeffhergert on Friday, September 16, 2022 11:22 PM

For the first few years after I hired out, when tied up we were to print out an Hours of Service receipt. I don't remember having to sign it, it was done on the computer and just a copy of the FRA screen when done.  They were using an old box which was the box that the printer paper came in. 

When the box was full, someone in the yard management collected them.  And according to one eyewitness, after collecting them promptly placed them into the trash can.

Jeff

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