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Does anyone know what color the Blue Goose actually was?

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, July 14, 2022 1:05 PM

Now THAT looks like a good-quality well preserved photograph, probably a Kodachrome slide, which typically age very well if stored right.

I'd guess that's late in the Goose's career since it looks like it's pulling a mail/express car train. 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, July 14, 2022 1:10 PM

I'm not so sure. Look at the color of the stainless steel stripe.  It looks tan.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, July 14, 2022 1:26 PM

charlie hebdo

I'm not so sure. Look at the color of the stainless steel stripe.  It looks tan.

 

True, but sometimes it all depends on how the light reflects from it.  It's one of the reasons for the not-that-important controversy about what Russia Iron really looked like. 

I'd say the photo's a reliable record of the Goose's blue coloring at that time, the stainless stripe was probably untouched and still stainless. 

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Posted by rixflix on Thursday, July 14, 2022 5:01 PM

The locomotive looks good. The train looks like one of those awful (Trainz?) simulations, particularly between tender and cars and in the trucks. 

Rick

rixflix aka Captain Video. Blessed be Jean Shepherd and all His works!!! Hooray for 1939, the all time movie year!!! I took that ride on the Reading but my Baby caught the Katy and left me a mule to ride.

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Posted by pennytrains on Thursday, July 14, 2022 6:43 PM

Oh, it's the real deal.  I can enlarge it in high definition on Facebook.  The stripe looks tan because it's reflecting it's surroundings.  And it's a 100% mail and express consist.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Thursday, July 14, 2022 6:56 PM

pennytrains
And it's a 100% mail and express consist.

Gee, it's nice to guess correctly every once in a while!  Wink

Since I'm on a roll I'm guessing the lack of definition of the rest of the train is due to certain factors.  Considering the time period the Kodachrome film most likely had an ASA of 10, which was going to call for a fine balancing act between focus, shutter speed, and the f-stop setting. If I was in the photographer's place I'd have gone for the best settings to freeze the locomotive and not be too concerned with the consist.  Mail cars are mail cars but the Blue Goose was unique! 

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Posted by wjstix on Wednesday, August 3, 2022 11:55 AM

Just an aside - I recall reading a long time ago (but of course, can't remember where I read it) that at the time, railroaders called the engine a "Blue Bird". Later, Baldwin came out with a blue diesel demonstrator that was nicknamed "Blue Goose", and that over time in the railfan community the two kinda merged so the "Blue Bird" steam engine became the "Blue Goose" retroactively.

No idea if true, but seems plausible. I know Jim Boyd wrote about riding with the crew of a chopped-nose Alco RSD-15 who were confused when he referred to it as an "Alligator" - a common railfan nickname, but the railroaders had never heard it.

Stix
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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, August 3, 2022 3:26 PM

wjstix
No idea if true, but seems plausible. I know Jim Boyd wrote about riding with the crew of a chopped-nose Alco RSD-15 who were confused when he referred to it as an "Alligator" - a common railfan nickname, but the railroaders had never heard it.

If what I've read is (mostly) correct professional railroaders typically referred to locomotives by their series numbers, not their popular names.

"What power you got for this run?"

"Oh, one of the 4000's."  Something like that. 

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Posted by pennytrains on Wednesday, August 3, 2022 6:46 PM

Yep.  The Nickel Plate Berks were just the "700's" to the men who ran them.

Big Smile  Same me, different spelling!  Big Smile

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Posted by Erik_Mag on Wednesday, August 3, 2022 10:40 PM

wjstix

Later, Baldwin came out with a blue diesel demonstrator that was nicknamed "Blue Goose", and that over time in the railfan community the two kinda merged so the "Blue Bird" steam engine became the "Blue Goose" retroactively.

I was under the impression was that the "Blue Goose" was the Baldwin - Westinghouse gas turbine locomotive demonstrator. This used two 2,000hp turbines and was intended for passenger service.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, August 4, 2022 8:53 AM

Erik_Mag
I was under the impression was that the "Blue Goose" was the Baldwin - Westinghouse gas turbine locomotive demonstrator.

That's correct... of note were the B-B+B-B span-bolstered wheel arrangement and perhaps the worst attempt at a sharknose design that was ever built.

https://i.redd.it/kzmky3hj2i161.jpg

The "blue" color was apparently fairly dark, on the sides and roof: it is probably possible to recover the color information but I can't distinguish it from 'filtered' B&W.  The nose was a combination of high-visiblilty colors, apparently.

Hopefully someone like tdmidget can comment on the precise technical issues involved in the design, and its apparent failure.  In my opinion the lack of regeneration alone made the idea problematic.

I should probably mention the Besler steam motor train for the sake of completeness.  This was assuredly not powder blue, or likely to be mistaken for an express streamliner, although it was nominally capable of 70mph speed.

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Posted by wjstix on Thursday, August 4, 2022 11:16 AM

Yes, working railroaders usually used the engine number/series. Perhaps I should have said "the railroad" or "railfans at the time" etc.? Not sure if Santa Fe in their ads or other documents used "Blue Bird", but it apparently was what it was known for until the blending with the Baldwin demonstrator's nickname.

Stix
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Posted by pennytrains on Thursday, August 4, 2022 8:18 PM

I always thought of the Westinghouse loco as having more of a dog face.

Big Smile  Same me, different spelling!  Big Smile

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, August 5, 2022 8:22 AM

No one could ever mistake a streamlined 3460 Ripley Hudson for any sort of bluebird.

There were a few locomotives that acquired 'work nicknames' rather than railfan 'sobriquets'.  The one that springs to mind is the streamlined CB&Q Hudsons with the name 'Aeolus' (the god of the winds) on the side.  There were apparently two with the same name, and they were called "Big Alice the Goon" collectively (after the character in Thimble Theater/Popeye.  What I understood they were calling streamlined ATSF 3460 was not "Blue Goose" but "Mae West" -- for fairly self-evident reason(s).

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Posted by kgbw49 on Sunday, August 14, 2022 11:14 AM

Broadway Limited Imports now has actual models on their Website.

https://www.broadway-limited.com/hybridatsfbluegooseho.aspx

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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, August 14, 2022 12:59 PM

kgbw49
Broadway Limited Imports now has actual models on their Website.

https://www.broadway-limited.com/hybridatsfbluegooseho.aspx

Perusing through the Broadway Limited ad - at the bottom they are offering a B&O Cincinnatian version.  B&O never had a 4-6-4 streamlined for the Cincinnatian.  Their lone 4-6-4 was the Lord Baltimore, an experimental that was built at the same time the B&O was accepting delivery of the EMC EA's to dieselize some of their passenger trains.  The Lord Baltimore ended up being a one off.

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Sunday, August 14, 2022 2:54 PM

BaltACD
B&O never had a 4-6-4 streamlined for the Cincinnatian.

True, but it won't be the first time an model manufacturer stretched things a bit for a little more market share.   Wink

I'm not up on the HO world, but others like Lionel, MTH, and Williams did the same with various roadnames in O Gauge.

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Posted by kgbw49 on Sunday, August 14, 2022 7:59 PM

What caught my eye was what looks like three shades of blue used on the 1939 version.

Roger, Balt, on the Cincinnatian version. It must have looked really good in real-life color on those P-7 4-6-2 locomotIves.

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Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, August 14, 2022 11:22 PM

kgbw49
What caught my eye was what looks like three shades of blue used on the 1939 version.

Roger, Balt, on the Cincinnatian version. It must have looked really good in real-life color on those P-7 4-6-2 locomotIves.

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Posted by M636C on Monday, August 15, 2022 3:48 AM

BaltACD

 

 
kgbw49
Broadway Limited Imports now has actual models on their Website.

https://www.broadway-limited.com/hybridatsfbluegooseho.aspx

 

Perusing through the Broadway Limited ad - at the bottom they are offering a B&O Cincinnatian version.  B&O never had a 4-6-4 streamlined for the Cincinnatian.  Their lone 4-6-4 was the Lord Baltimore, an experimental that was built at the same time the B&O was accepting delivery of the EMC EA's to dieselize some of their passenger trains.  The Lord Baltimore ended up being a one off.

 

In fact, B&O had four 4-6-4s, classes V-1 to V-4.

The V-1 5047 was a rebuild from a P-1 class Pacific, and retained its original number.

The V-2 was "Lord Baltimore" as described, No 2 and later 5340. It is understood that the J-1 4-4-4 was originally built streamlined, but the casing was removed before the locomotive was completed, and it seems likely that the V-2 would have been streamlined except for the decision on the J-1. It is unlikely to have looked like the Cincinnatian locomotives.It is most likely to have resembled the C&NW E-4 Hudsons, although much smaller.

Two more locomotives, V-3 5350 and V-4 5360 followed in 1935 and 1936. These were heavier and with smaller wheels than the V-2 and were more suitable for general passenger traffic.

The V-2 entered traffic in early 1935, some months before the EMC boxcab No 50 arrived in August 1935. The better known EA units, 51 upward didn't arrive until 1937. After the success of No 50, no more serious efforts were made to build fast passenger steam locomotives.

But of course, it is true that there were no streamlined 4-6-4s on the B&O.

Peter

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Posted by daveklepper on Monday, August 15, 2022 4:12 AM

BALTACD:   TErrific picture.  But it would be even bitter with less smoke and gey smoke, no blue.  Can I tweak it?  Assuming I get back an internet connection allowing posting pictures.and have your permission to do so.

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Posted by BaltACD on Monday, August 15, 2022 8:07 AM

daveklepper
BALTACD:   TErrific picture.  But it would be even bitter with less smoke and gey smoke, no blue.  Can I tweak it?  Assuming I get back an internet connection allowing posting pictures.and have your permission to do so.

Not my picture - sourced from the net.

Right Clicking on the image and selecting 'copy image address' will develop the source of the image.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, August 15, 2022 10:54 AM

The Cincinnatian, and Olive Dennis's work, were of course postwar and couldn't possibly have any influence on this.

I would have to wonder if some version of Kuhler's original styling for 5304, or an adaptation of his design for the stillborn W-1, might have been the treatment for Lady Baltimore.  If there is any collection of Kuhler's railroad work, there might be drafts in there.

I suspect the streamlining would be more akin to the Milwaukee As than the E4bs, as the As were of comparable size to the Lady.  It's interesting that they were given the 'English look' a la Loree instead of full streamlining.

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Posted by M636C on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 11:15 PM

Overmod

The Cincinnatian, and Olive Dennis's work, were of course postwar and couldn't possibly have any influence on this.

I would have to wonder if some version of Kuhler's original styling for 5304, or an adaptation of his design for the stillborn W-1, might have been the treatment for Lady Baltimore.  If there is any collection of Kuhler's railroad work, there might be drafts in there.

I suspect the streamlining would be more akin to the Milwaukee As than the E4bs, as the As were of comparable size to the Lady.  It's interesting that they were given the 'English look' a la Loree instead of full streamlining.

 

You have to remember that B&O No 1 preceded both 5304 and the heavyweight Royal Blue for which it was modified. It was more or less contempoary with the Milwaukee Atlantics, but it is vey unlikely that it would have resembled them.

On No 1 as released, it is clear that the streamlining involved a skyline casing (check the sand dome and the steam turret cover). The deeper valance on the running board above the cylinders suggests that a flat casing might have been applied over the running gear.

In 1934 the Chief Commissioner of the Victorian Railways, Harold Clapp, visited the USA. He visited the Milwaukee, the B&O and the ACF plant at St Charles Missouri where the lightweight "Abraham Lincoln" and "Royal Blue" were still under construction. Clapp's father was American and Harold had been educated in the USA and he managed to extract the full drawings of the B&O trains from ACF and the drawings of the J-1 from the B&O. In his report to the Victorian Government (who owned and operated the Victorian Railways), he described in detail his intention to build a train based on the ACF drawings and he described the J-1 and in particular its trailing truck booster which was geared to higher speeds than freight boosters (and was described as an "accelerating booster").

By 1937 Clapp had built his train and proceeded to streamline four existing "Pacific" locomotives. The new tenders, required for a 400 mile non stop journey looked very like the tender on the J-1, in that it matched the profile of the train.

The VR locomotives had a very rectangular skyline casing, much like the turret covers on the J-1 and V-2.  Since Clapp presumably had the drawings of the J-1 as streamlined, and he copied many details from the American trains, it is possible that the J-1 would have looked like this:

http://www.victorianrailways.net/motive%20power/ssteam/ssteam.html

(adjusted for the different locomotive dimensions and different clearances...)

Certainly, the two ACF trains for B&O had a "lunch counter" as well as a diner and observation lounge. The VR built one of these immediately they received the plans.

http://www.victorianrailways.net/pass%20cars/pass%20car%20pages/dining%20cars/dining_cars.html

and scroll down to "Buffet Car Taggerty" and particularly the interior view.

All of the steel cars in that section (apart from the earlier "Avoca" and "Hopkins") were built using the ACF drawings, and had the distinctive flattened roof seen on the two B&O trains. The VR trains were built from "Corten" steel. I believe the "Abraham Lincoln" was Corten and the "Royal Blue" aluminium.

Certainly photographs of the observation saloon interior in the B&O and VR trains were difficult to tell apart.

Peter

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, August 18, 2022 10:08 AM

Those various dining and buffet cars would not look out of place in the United States.

Continuing the American look, VR's S-class diesels had bulldog noses.

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Posted by kgbw49 on Friday, August 19, 2022 10:57 PM

I really like those Pacifics - nicely done indeed!

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Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, August 27, 2022 11:51 AM

Not a Blue Goose, but another tastefully done blue Hudson - the Wabash P-1.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=42Hl1pnv1HE

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