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Interesting video about the Pennsy T1 reproduction

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Posted by Backshop on Thursday, May 19, 2022 2:48 PM

Didn't the original T1 have either adhesion or rough riding problems due to the track not being "perfect"?  How does today's track compare to the track when the PRR was in its prime?

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Thursday, May 19, 2022 7:23 PM

54light15
Home»Trains Magazine»Forums»Steam & Preservation New Reply Fill out the form below to create a new reply to the thread RE: Interesting video about the Pennsy T1 reproduction. 54light15 wrote the following post 22 hours ago: Isn't the plan for the new T1 to correct the deficiencies that it had?

1) Awakens an ancient memory - Classics 22 "Life in Ancient Greece"

"The Ship of Theseus is a thought experiment about whether an object that has had all of its components replaced remains fundamentally the same object. Theseus was the mythical Greek founder-king of Athens, and the question was raised by ancient philosophers (e.g. Heraclitus and Plato): If the ship of Theseus were kept in a harbor and every part on the ship were replaced one at a time, would it then be a new ship?

Some follow-up questions are common: If it is not the same ship, then at what point did it stop being the ship of Theseus? If it is the same ship, then could all the removed pieces be reassembled to form a ship, and would that be the ship of Theseus?"

2) The whole purpose of the T1 exercise seems to be an obsession by some fanbois to "prove" some highly dubious claims about the original locomotive's performance. Because of that, if the mechanical components of the new loco are not made of exactly the same materials, shaped and assembled the same way, any results are worthless. No "correcting "of any deficiencies the original may have had is allowed.

 

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Posted by kgbw49 on Thursday, May 19, 2022 8:33 PM

Zugmann shoots...HE SCORES! The crowd is going wild!

Brevity is the soul of wit. Nicely played, Zugmann! Nicely played indeed!

:-D

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Posted by kgbw49 on Thursday, May 19, 2022 9:04 PM

BEAUSABRE, that is definitely some pretty deep ship.

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Posted by 54light15 on Friday, May 20, 2022 9:26 AM

I've heard that the A1 Tornado in the U.K. was considered a continuation of the original series and was given a proper serial number, even though it did have improvements which the original manufacturers would have incorporated into the design. So, wouldn't that apply to a new built T1? A 1930 Model A Ford with a later V8 engine is still a 1930 Ford. 

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Posted by BEAUSABRE on Friday, May 20, 2022 5:20 PM

I would disagree with you. 

54light15
which the original manufacturers would have incorporated into the design
- says who? We have no way of knowing or proving those alterations would have been done. If you want to call it an A1a, fine, but acknowlege it is not identical what was running "back in the day". 

 

54light15
A 1930 Model A Ford with a later V8 engine is still a 1930 Ford. 
No it isn't. If a V8 was an option on a model A (It wasn't, you got a four banger or you walked), then a vintage engine or one built to its specifications, using the materials available at the time, it would be Model A. What you have with your mongrel is a "Modified Model A" or is "Based on a Model A Chassis" (which would have to be modified to accomodate a different power train (engine, transmission and differential) than it was designed for as I doubt the original drive train could take the power of a V-8) - the NHRA would class it as a Comp Car, not a Stock car. I feel strongly about this as I hold a SCCA competition license and know how strict sanctioning agencies are about "production car" classes and what can be done to them. 

"Stock cars are similar to Super Stockers, but the rules regarding everything from engine modifications to body alterations are much stricter. Virtually any car is eligible to compete, and entries are classified using a system that divides factory shipping weight by NHRA-factored horsepower. Bodies must be unaltered and retain a full factory interior. Tires are limited to a maximum 9-inch-wide rear slick. Engines must be correct for the make and model vehicle and must retain stock cylinder heads, intake manifold, and carburetor. Modifications are limited to a basic balancing and rebuild with only a few performance enhancements."

I'll go with the sanctioning agencies, thank you. Your V8 "Model A" would be eligable for Comp, but only a real Model A could run in Stock

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Posted by Backshop on Friday, May 20, 2022 6:03 PM

So I guess the ex D&H PA's aren't really PA's and any locomotive retrofitted with HEP isn't what it was, either?

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Posted by zugmann on Friday, May 20, 2022 6:07 PM

And while some debate on whether this is a "real" T1 or not, 

 

I'm going to guess most of the people  building this "T1" or "Not T1" will continue progress all the while not giving a crap about the Reddit-like  debate.  

  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of

my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by pennytrains on Friday, May 20, 2022 7:25 PM

That's it in a nutshell Zugman.  It isn't like there's any Pennsy lawyers running around who will sue for patent infringement or unauthorized use of a copyrighted model number.  It is what it is, or will be, one of these days....maybe...

Big Smile  Same me, different spelling!  Big Smile

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Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, May 21, 2022 7:16 AM

If I recall correctly, my understanding of one concern is the front pair of drivers could slip at high speed. If that is one deficiency as built back in the 1940s, one would think that would be one thing they would most certainly want to solve. If you don't you would just have a high-priced rail grinder And host railroads would probably not appreciate that type of issue.

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Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, May 21, 2022 7:42 AM

Here is a very good article that describes the T1 high-speed driver-slipping issue.

https://oldmachinepress.com/2020/06/20/pennsylvania-railroad-4-4-4-4-t1-locomotive/

Also, just for comparison, here are the rigid wheelbases of various locomotives with 8 driving wheels of 80 inches in diameter, and Big Boy with two engines of 8 driving wheels of 68 inches in diameter:

ATSR 2900/3765/3776 classes - 21.25 feet

SP GS-3/GS-4/GS-5 classes - 21.50 feet

UP FEF-2/FEF-3 classes - 22.00 feet

PRR T1 class -25.33 feet

UP 4884-1/4884-2 classes - 18.25 feet

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Posted by 54light15 on Saturday, May 21, 2022 10:03 AM

Beausabre- Regarding the A1, I closely followed its build via the various British rail magazines that I've been buying for years and also talking to the A1's staff on the several excursions I've made on trains pulled by it and also talking to it's maintainers at the Stewart's Lane shops in London on the various times I've been there. It's still an A1 as far as everyone involved is concerned. 

My 1954 Citroen has an engine block from a 1959 Citroen that I installed in 1988. It's still a 54. 

The mods needed for the T1 doesn't make it something else, its still a T1

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Posted by SD60MAC9500 on Saturday, May 21, 2022 12:29 PM
 

Well if the boiler and cab are already 64' in length. How long was a yesteryear T1 steamer with its tender?

CSSHEGEWISCH

Which explains my belief that the T1 project is more of an expensive engineering experiment than anything else.

 

I have the same impression.

Though once this thing is up and running. If they can get with Amtrak, and NS to run some excursions between Pittsburgh-Harrisburg. Behind some restored Pennsy passenger rollingstock. Take my money!

 
 
 
Rahhhhhhhhh!!!!
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Posted by kgbw49 on Saturday, May 21, 2022 2:19 PM

T1 Locomotive Length 68 feet 2.5 inches

T1 Tender Length 53 feet 9.5 inches

T1 Total Length 122 feet 10 inches

For comparison:

ATSF 2900 Total Length 120 feet 10 inches

UP FEF-3 Total Length 114 feet 3 inches

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Posted by zugmann on Saturday, May 21, 2022 2:25 PM

kgbw49
T1 Locomotive Length 68 feet 2.5 inches

about as long as a SD60.  They always looked bigger in pictures.  Tender helps, mabe?

  

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, May 21, 2022 2:40 PM

zugmann
about as long as a SD60.  They always looked bigger in pictures.

Some things do look bigger in pictures.  When I saw N&W 1218 up close I was surprised how relatively small it was considering the mental picture I had of it from seeing photographs.  Then again, several months earlier I'd seen a Big Boy at a rail museum in Dallas, so most likely the Big Boy was in the back of my mind when I went to see 1218.   

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Posted by selector on Saturday, May 21, 2022 3:35 PM

zugmann

 

 
kgbw49
T1 Locomotive Length 68 feet 2.5 inches

 

about as long as a SD60.  They always looked bigger in pictures.  Tender helps, mabe?

 

It is undoubtedly the long tender that makes the difference.  I have posted this tongue-in-cheek image before, taken on my long-gone layout:

This is a 90' turntable:

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Saturday, May 21, 2022 5:42 PM

selector
I have posted this tongue-in-cheek image before, taken on my long-gone layout:

Could be worse.  Could be the S1!  Wink

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Posted by Overmod on Sunday, May 22, 2022 7:30 AM

Flintlock76
selector
I have posted this tongue-in-cheek image before, taken on my long-gone layout...

Could be worse.  Could be the S1...

Hey, Hank!  We just tried to run the Big Engine over the 90' table here, but they left the bridge misaligned and it went in the pit right up to the side of the bridge!

The good news is that the rear drivers stayed on the ground, so we backed it out under its own power...

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