LeMay was indeed a military genius. But he had no illusions about what he was doing. He once said:
"Killing Japanese didn't bother me very much at that time... I suppose if I had lost the war, I would have been tried as a war criminal.... Every soldier thinks something of the moral aspects of what he is doing. But all war is immoral and if you let that bother you, you're not a good soldier."
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
20th Air Force B-29's were routinely overloaded before they got off the ground at Tinian. More than a few didn't make it into the air.
For those interested, years back aviation writer Martin Caidin wrote a book on the B-29 bombardment campaign on Japan called "A Torch To The Enemy." While telling the whole story and the "whys and wherefores" Caidin pulled no punches. He didn't glamorize the bombing campaign and showed it as an ugly but necessary job that had to be done.
If you can find it, grab it. It's a good story well told.
Remember the Hibakusha on August 6th and 9th.
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Tragic all right. Blame the Japanese warlords who were willing to fight to the last drop of everyone's blood but their own.
Lady Firestorm and I met a hibakusha years ago. She was the wife of a Marine warrant officer I worked with. Lady F asked where she was from (not knowing) and she said "Nagasaki." And then she said "Yes, I was there for the bombing."
You could have heard our jaws hitting the floor! Her story was she actually lived on the outskirts of the city, and was swimming with her brother that morning when the bomb fell. She was standing on the dock when the blast came and the shock wave knocked her into the water. Luckily neither she or her brother had any ill effects from the bomb.
Later I was talking with her husband and said "Bill, I didn't know your wife was from Nagasaki!" He said "Yeah, it's amazing. My wife's got as much combat time as I do!"
By the way, I had to look up hibakusha. That's a new word for me.
Penny Trains Remember the Hibakusha on August 6th and 9th.
If the War had been fought to a conventional weapons conclusion - there would likely have been up to a combined 10 Million more casualities than with the A-Bomb conclusion - most of those casualities would have been Japanese.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The Americans were also preparing to use chemical weapons in the invasion of Japan, they were stockpiling several kinds of poison gas in the Phillippines when the atomic bombs were dropped.
SD70Dude The Americans were also preparing to use chemical weapons in the invasion of Japan, they were stockpiling several kinds of poison gas in the Phillippines when the atomic bombs were dropped.
Chemical weapons were stockpiled all right, but they were considered a last resort and were only to be used if the Japanese used them first.
One chemical weapon that was definately being considered for use was actually what's called today a defoliant, an it was a precursor to the "Agent Orange" used in Vietnam. The idea was to attack the Japanese crops, rice, wheat, barley, any vegetables at all, causing mass starvation.
So, it could have been worse, much worse.
After the horrors of Iwo Jima and Okinawa the American forces weren't too crazy about an actual invasion, especially the Navy and Marine Corps, and were looking for alternatives.
Firelock76 SD70Dude The Americans were also preparing to use chemical weapons in the invasion of Japan, they were stockpiling several kinds of poison gas in the Phillippines when the atomic bombs were dropped. Chemical weapons were stockpiled all right, but they were considered a last resort and were only to be used if the Japanese used them first. 'One chemical weapon that was definately being considered for use was actually what's called today a defoliant, an it was a precursor to the "Agent Orange" "used in Vietnam.' The idea was to attack the Japanese crops, rice, wheat, barley, any vegetables at all, causing mass starvation. So, it could have been worse, much worse. After the horrors of Iwo Jima and Okinawa the American forces weren't too crazy about an actual invasion, especially the Navy and Marine Corps, and were looking for alternatives.
'One chemical weapon that was definately being considered for use was actually what's called today a defoliant, an it was a precursor to the "Agent Orange" "used in Vietnam.' The idea was to attack the Japanese crops, rice, wheat, barley, any vegetables at all, causing mass starvation.
I think what we are all trying to say - as horrific as the A-Bombs were. Their use saved countless lives - American and Japanese, as the succeeded in bringing a quick end of the war.
I'll defer to Firelock or any other history buff on this, but I heard that sometime after the war some Japanese dignitaries were visiting D. C. and learned that one scenario being considered was to work with Russia to invade Japan, then divide it the way it was done in Germany. Their response was something like, "Thank God you used the bomb."
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
I haven't heard that Paul, but it wouldn't surprise me. The Japanese were deathly afraid of a Soviet occupation. As a matter of fact, Saburo Sakai, the top suviving Japanese fighter ace of WW2 (who became an ardent pacifist after the war) once said the only way he'd ever climb in a fighter cockpit again was if "...the Soviet slavemasters ever reach out for Japan."
Sakai was offered a commission in the Japanese air force when it was re-established in the 1950's, but turned it down.
Yes, the soviets were bound by the Malta(?) agreement to assist in the invasion of Japan after V-E day. So I doubt there would have been many surviving young Russian males if they'd had to fulfill their promise after so many years fighting the nazis all the way back to Berlin.
You may remember that one of the common New Left 'pravdas' from the 1960s on was that the 'real' reason Japan surrendered when it did was the threat of the Russian invasion of Manchuria, and not any number of bombs.
Overmod You may remember that one of the common New Left 'pravdas' from the 1960s on was that the 'real' reason Japan surrendered when it did was the threat of the Russian invasion of Manchuria, and not any number of bombs.
Uh huh.
By the way, anyone notice there's over 18,000 views on this thread? That's amazing, someone out there is sure finding this interesting.
I wonder who they are?
BaltACD I think what we are all trying to say - as horrific as the A-Bombs were. Their use saved countless lives - American and Japanese, as the succeeded in bringing a quick end of the war.
There is historically, no doubt that the use of the A-Bombs over Japan saved American lives. Firelock76 may need to correct the following(?); but what I have always heard, is that the estimations for American troop losses, were in the neighborhood of 2+ million potential[American and Japanese(?)] casualties. for the Invasion of the Japanese Home Islands.
Another interesting note, is that, in preparations for that Invasion, The American Government had struck; an order for 1 million Purple Heart Medals, for the American casualties they were expecting(?). To that extent, the Purple Heart Medals being awarded from those times to this; are medals from the ones created for distribution, after the Invasion of the Home Islands(?). [That may be an urban ledgend] , but whenever the subject has come up in various conversations, no one seems to have wanted to correct that, statement.
OvermodYou may remember that one of the common New Left 'pravdas' from the 1960s on was that the 'real' reason Japan surrendered when it did was the threat of the Russian invasion of Manchuria, and not any number of bombs.
Russia's moves toward Japan were just a 'me too' effort to say they were involved in the war against Japan, when they weren't.
BaltACDRussia's moves toward Japan were just a 'me too' effort to say they were involved in the war against Japan, when they weren't.
Although I despise most of the New Left, I would highly disagree with this.
As Penny noted, there were strong restrictions against the Russians entering the war against Japan before Hitler was defeated, the nasty-spirited little partitions of Europe were under way, etc. Meanwhile, there is the Red Army with little to do, and presumably a long memory back to 1905. There may not have been dramatic Russian presence in Manchuria and other 'approach regions' in the period between VE day and August, but there was little doubt that large forces would be brought to bear against the Japanese in increasing concentration, unless the United States and the other Western powers found a reason to put Russia out of the alliance -- given the anticipated casualties for an invasion of the Japanese home islands, ridiculously unlikely.
I confess I'd have been interested to see how much of the Japanese die-to-the-last-woman-and-child tactics would survive contact with large concentrations of Red Army troops with expedient weaponry. Suspect it would not have lasted long, and suspect you will find many Japanese historians who recognize this.
Of course, if you understand the physics of relatively small fission bombs, you will recognize how much of the hibakusha propaganda really doesn't apply to the situation ... but it isn't popular to defend 'weapons of mass destruction' especially in the age when mutual assured deterrence fringes over into 'more boom for the buck' mutually-assured destruction.
How do we link this back to Big Boys, or railroading?
OvermodHow do we link this back to Big Boys, or railroading?
Simple! Post a link or two to some photos!
Big. Aren't they?
Overmod, I disagree to a degree :). Russia couldn't invade Japan without US and UK help. They didn't have the amphibious ships or logistic train through Siberia to do it. They were supporting Mao so invading Manchuria wouldn't get them any land because Mao would get it. They captured a few islands "just because". By the end of the war in Europe, they were pretty well bled out. It would have taken them months to ship the forces needed east on the single track Siberian railway. Once there, they still wouldn't have the shipping to do anything with them.
Well thank goodness! All that a-bomb talk was getting depressing.
And the Big Boy is BIG alright! Anyone ever see one "up-close and personal?" I have, several years back at the rail museum in Dallas, formerly at the Texas State Fairgrounds. The size of the thing took my breath away, photos don't do it justice.
Second place for sheer heart-stopping size goes to the C&O Allegheny. Wow!
I saw the one at Steamtown in Scranton about 30 years ago and the Allegheny in the Henry Ford museum about 8 years ago. A friend of mine thinks the Allegheny is bigger, but he is wrong. Isn't he? Man, they were gigantic!
And as far as atom bombs go, all I can say is:
Yeee Haaaa!!!
Far as anyone knows, the heaviest 2-6+6-6 was a bit heavier than the heaviest 4-8+8-4. Maybe an inch or two taller? But not longer, of course.
54light15 Yeee Haaaa!!!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3edi2Wkr5YI
Peter Sellers was originally supposed to play Major Kong as well, but I think Slim Pickens was just perfect in that role!
I've been to Dearborn at least twice but neither time was I old enough to appreciate what I was looking at.
Becky, that picture you posted of the Allegheny reminds me of a Thanksgiving weekend about ten years ago.
We were visiting the B&O Museum in Baltimore with Lady F's sister and her family. My sister-in-law's hubby is a real gearhead and car guy, and he was reading the spec sheet posted by the Allgeheny. So say he was amazed at the performance of the machine was putting it mildly.
"My God," he said, "WHY did they every get rid of these things?"
Why indeed? I told him the whole sad story and he said "OK, that makes sense. But WHY did they ever get rid of these things?"
Haven't we all been asking that most of our lives?
Firelock76Becky, that picture you posted of the Allegheny reminds me of a Thanksgiving weekend about ten years ago. We were visiting the B&O Museum in Baltimore with Lady F's sister and her family. My sister-in-law's hubby is a real gearhead and car guy, and he was reading the spec sheet posted by the Allgeheny. So say he was amazed at the performance of the machine was putting it mildly. "My God," he said, "WHY did they every get rid of these things?" Why indeed? I told him the whole sad story and he said "OK, that makes sense. But WHY did they ever get rid of these things?" Haven't we all been asking that most of our lives?
Watched 'Drain the Oceans' last night on National Geographic Channel.
They had a segment on the Germans scuttling their 74 ship fleet at Scappa Floe while under British guard as the peace conference was dithering over how to split up the German ships as spoils of war. Scuttling the ships at the same time was one mean feat of organization.
Even better, at present there are only 7 German ships on the bottom. The remainder of the ships were salvaged and sold off as scrap during the inter war period - most of the scrap steel sold was sold to Hitler's Germany and thereby became a significant part of the arsenal he build between 1933 and 1940.
Are we driving some of the 1940's steam engines, are they our washing machines or refrigerators? Were they a part of the World Trade Center on 9/11?????? It would be interesting if one could track the DNA of today's steel and figure out where and when it actually originated.
I saw the Allegheny at the Roanoke Museum in 1983. That stoker screw & firebox are huge!
Regarding the Scapa Flow German wrecks, as I understand it one of the wrecks, the SMS Konig was not salvaged but its steel was of such a quality that some was recovered for use in the moon landings of lo, these 50 years ago. Not sure how but that's what I've heard. If you are interested, paper models of many of the ships are available (I've got a bunch) and are a lot more fun to build than plastic kits. Have a look at this if you're interested.
http://store.jsc.pl/
Check out this site for Prinz Eugen: http://www.petemesley.com/lust4rust/wreck-trips/bikini-atoll/wrecks/
Crossroads: Test Baker. Underwater detonation of 23kt pit.
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