Miningman
Yep, the kamikaze joke! An old standard, heard it from my father years ago, long before Cheech and Chong, although Dad left out the "#%**-$@..." part.
Well, I was only ten years old at the time!
Although thanks to C&C I got to hear it the way Dad heard it back in the 40's!
Of course, the whole point of Japanese military operations in 1941 wasn't to die for their country, it was to make everyone else die for their country.
That crazy kamikaze stuff would come later.
Speculating and arm chair tweaking of military history is endless. But it is fun, considering it involves no actual misery and horror. Many events turned on a dime, unforeseen, that changing the outcomes could easily have occured.
For all its actual misery and horror, I'm glad the way it turned out.
Well, there's one thing the loss of the battleships at Pearl Harbor did that worked out well in the long run. It FORCED the US Navy to use the capital ships that were left, that is, the aircraft carriers, and the Navy learned just what the carriers could do and what a war-winning weapon they could be.
It has always amused me to hear for many, many years, "They sunk our battleships, but they were obsolete." Oh, then why were they all except the two that were total losses repaired, modernized and upgraded and used until the end of the war? Yeah, they were old but still needed just like the 50 four-pipers given to the Brits.
Firelock, I think you're spot-on about Admiral Yamamoto. He was a pro and did what he had to do.
Admiral Yammaoto knew just how badly the war was going to end for Japan even before he ordered the attack. He had extensively toured the USA as Naval attache to the Japanese Embassy in Washington. He knew just how much production capacity we could bring to bear. He knew that for about the first year we would be going from a peace time economy to a war time one. His only hope was to destroy our fleet at Pearl including our carriers that we had in the Pacific fleet at that time. However the carriers were out Saratoga was delivering planes to Midway Enterprise was coming home from Wake Lexington was at Diego getting a refit done. The Hornet was being finished up being built Yorktown was in the Atlantic. Yeah we got our butt handed to us at Pearl badly however it also was the best thing honestly that could have happened. Why the ships were easy to salvage refloat get into drydock repair upgraded and back into the fight. While the battleships were slow max speed of around 21 knots they could escort transports convoys and be used for landing preparations.
Even slow they still got their licks in against the enemy. Suragato strait 5 Pearl Harbor victim battleships crossed the T of the Southern Japanese Fleet. They proceeded to sink the entire Japanese Battle line of Battleships.
You nailed it "Shadow," Suragao Strait, the ships called "The Pearl Harbor Ghosts" got their revenge, in spades.
I remember reading Admiral Yamamoto saying concerning a Pacific war with the United States, "I can run wild for six months, maybe a year, but after that, no promises." From what I know the Japanese strategy was to inflict a series of crushing, humiliating defeats on the United States, removing our presense from the western Pacific and wrecking our self-confidence, and then send out peace feelers leading to a negotiated settlement. Of course, it didn't work out that way.
The best strategy for the Japanese warlords would have been to ignore the United States entirely. The American people certainly didn't like what was going on in Asia, but they weren't going to go to war over it. Pearl Harbor changed all that.
The staff of the Imperial Japanese Navy was wedded to the doctrine of "The Great All-Out Battle" which was to be fought somewhere in the western Pacific. The object was to lure the Pacific Fleet westward where it would be weakened along the way by hit-and-run skirmishes to face the Combined Fleet at full strength in said battle.
They were also tied to Mahan's various doctrines. Prange believed that the IJN could have taken Midway by sheer weight of steel (very heavy bombardment by their battleships) except that Mahan stated that ships should avoid engagement with land fortifications.
Oh, my goodness! Don't get off track; derailments are most unpleasant!
LehighVic Oh, my goodness! Don't get off track; derailments are most unpleasant!
I get a kick out of seeing how conversations evolve.
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
jtrain1 PS. I've never read anyplace that they were called "McArthur".
But if you were to spell the name correctly, you might read in all sorts of places that they were called "MacArthur" (after General Douglas MacArthur), as even a cursory Google search of "MacArthur locomotive" will quickly document.
About 12 years ago, I was working in a sporting goods store and a much older gentleman came in wearing a BB43 USS Tennessee ballcap. I had just reread my copy of the Battle of Surigao Strait so everything was fresh in my mind. I asked him if that was "his" ship. He said yes and we talked for around 10 minutes. He had a huge smile because he was talking to someone who actually knew about his war. I asked him about Surigao Strait and he said "When our first salvo hit, I knew it was going to be a good night".
Backshop About 12 years ago, I was working in a sporting goods store and a much older gentleman came in wearing a BB43 USS Tennessee ballcap. I had just reread my copy of the Battle of Surigao Strait so everything was fresh in my mind. I asked him if that was "his" ship. He said yes and we talked for around 10 minutes. He had a huge smile because he was talking to someone who actually knew about his war. I asked him about Surigao Strait and he said "When our first salvo hit, I knew it was going to be a good night".
My hubby's late grandfather was part of the other half of this battle. He was on one of the transport ships that the boy's from Taffey group saved from meeting the Yamato and her fleet. Even before the Japanese Fleet had totally retreated out of the area his ships captain without orders headed into the battle area. They started pulling men from the water 2 hours after the Yamato ran away. His grandfather always said the men on those Escort Carriers groups never had to buy a drink at liberty the rest of the war if anyone from a transport ship was around. This should give you an idea how outweighed they were. The Yamato on her own displaced more water than every ship she faced that day and we still won the battle.
Shadow the Cats owner Backshop About 12 years ago, I was working in a sporting goods store and a much older gentleman came in wearing a BB43 USS Tennessee ballcap. I had just reread my copy of the Battle of Surigao Strait so everything was fresh in my mind. I asked him if that was "his" ship. He said yes and we talked for around 10 minutes. He had a huge smile because he was talking to someone who actually knew about his war. I asked him about Surigao Strait and he said "When our first salvo hit, I knew it was going to be a good night". My hubby's late grandfather was part of the other half of this battle. He was on one of the transport ships that the boy's from Taffey group saved from meeting the Yamato and her fleet. Even before the Japanese Fleet had totally retreated out of the area his ships captain without orders headed into the battle area. They started pulling men from the water 2 hours after the Yamato ran away. His grandfather always said the men on those Escort Carriers groups never had to buy a drink at liberty the rest of the war if anyone from a transport ship was around. This should give you an idea how outweighed they were. The Yamato on her own displaced more water than every ship she faced that day and we still won the battle.
Was watching 'Drain the Oceans' on the National Geographic Channel last night. A segment of the show was centered on finding the Yamato at the bottom of the ocean. While the ship did survive the engagement at Surigao Strait it was then returned to Japan and was outfitted for a 'kamikazi' style mission to challenge the entire American Navy - before it got to its intended attack point it was attacked by US arial forces - a type of attack the Yamato was not designed or equipped to defend against. The vessel sustained numerous bomb and tarpedo hits before taking on water and capsizing. In the process of capsizing ammunition being used in the #2 turret exploded and caused other munitions stored abord to also expolde - tearing the ship apart from the inside out. Remains of the vessel were scattered all over the ocean floor.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Was watching 'Drain the Oceans' on the National Geographic Channel last night. A segment of the show was centered on finding the Yamato at the bottom of the ocean. While the ship did survive the engagement at Surigao Strait it was then returned to Japan and was outfitted for a 'kamikazi' style mission to challenge the entire American Navy - before it got to its intended attack point it was attacked by US arial forces - a type of attack the Yamato was not designed or equipped to defend against. The vessel sustained numerous bomb and tarpedo hits before taking on water and capsizing. In the process of capsizing ammunition being used in the #2 turret exploded and caused other munitions stored abord to also expolde - tearing the ship apart from the inside out. Remains of the vessel were scattered all over the ocean floor.
A former co-worker stated that the US torpedo bombers were instructed to attack only one side of the ship with the intent of causing the ship to capsize.
On a related story, I remember seeig the obituary for one of the captains of the two subs that saw the main fleet heading for Leyte Gulf. Don't remember whther he was the capain of the Darter or of the Dace. It's scary to realize tha I first read about that battle less than 20 ears after it happened.
Shadow the Cats owner My hubby's late grandfather was part of the other half of this battle. He was on one of the transport ships that the boy's from Taffey group saved from meeting the Yamato and her fleet. Even before the Japanese Fleet had totally retreated out of the area his ships captain without orders headed into the battle area. They started pulling men from the water 2 hours after the Yamato ran away. His grandfather always said the men on those Escort Carriers groups never had to buy a drink at liberty the rest of the war if anyone from a transport ship was around. This should give you an idea how outweighed they were. The Yamato on her own displaced more water than every ship she faced that day and we still won the battle.
I'll have to look it up. My husband is a WW2 history buff to the point on Veterans and Memorial day the only channels he watches are TCM and any other channel showing Military movies. He has the Director's cut of Das Boot that he loves to play on our blueray disc player on the living room tv. Before his health failed him he used to be one of the players of Taps for deceased military men in this town for their funerals. He flat out told me they risked their lives for us it is the least he could do for them.
BaltACDRemains of the vessel were scattered all over the ocean floor.
Yeah. It's a bit of a mess down there:
I guess my Starblazers fantasies of the 70's won't come to pass after all...
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Several years back I read a story by a survivor of the Yamato, he was a young officer at the time, newly commissioned.
Anyway, those 296 planes the US Navy sent out to get Yamato had gotten it well and truly. The admiral commanding the Japanese task force, the Yamato's captain, and other senior officers on the bridge were preparing to go down with the ship. The young officers said to each other "We'll go down with the ship too!" and began tying themselves to stanchions, railings, pipes, and other things when the admiral's chief of staff saw what they were up to.
"What are you people doing?"
"Oh, sir, the admiral's going to go down with the ship, so's our captain, and we're going down with him!"
"Have you lost your minds?" the staff chief roared at them. "You're all young men, you have your whole lives ahead of you! Stop that nonsense right now, get out of here, and try to save yourselves as best you can! Now! THAT'S AN ORDER!"
Well, orders are orders, so they all went over the side. One at least survived to tell the tale. He said he was forever grateful to that staff chief for saving him from his own foolishness.
Isn't that something?
Here's something I caught yesterday while watching a documentary on the invasion of Saipan. Out of the 21k troops the Japanese had there to defend it only 200 even saw Japan after the war. The rest died for their emperor. Yet people today wonder why Truman ordered the atomic bomb dropped. This should show what we faced. In 1945 in order to take Iwo Jima and Okinawa it cost the USA a combined loos for those 2 islands 85 thousand killed or wounded. We also lost 26 ships from suicide attacks. The War Department in May of 45 while the battle for Okinawa was still going on got the initial estimated cost in men killed or wounded for Operation Downfall the invasion of Japan. They ordered 1.2 million Purple Hearts to give out. The USA as not ordered replacement Purple Hearts since 45.
The Japanese had sent a submarine carrying bubonic plague infested fleas to Saipan to help repel the invasion, fortunately for all, the submarine was sunk before it arrived at Saipan. Had those fleas been released in combat, the US would have likely retaliated with massive chemical and biological attacks against Japanese forces.
I don't think those fleas would have accomplished very much. It was standard operating procedure for the Navy and Marine Corps to spray those Pacific islands with DDT during combat operations.
The purpose was to kill disease carrying flies and mosquitos, however DDT doesn't care what kind of bugs it kills, it would have gotten the fleas too.
They had far more sinister ambitions for the Plague:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cherry_Blossoms_at_Night
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
'Dude, here's something even scarier.
When the V-2's started falling on London, and there was no defense against them, to say Winston Churchill was furious about it is putting it mildly. He wanted to hit back against the Germans, and hit back hard, but how to do it?
Well, you know the Brits had a biological warfare research program of their own, and had developed a particularly virulent form of anthrax. Churchill knew about it and immediately proposed hitting the Germans with it, gentlemanly warfare be damned!
The RAF chiefs talked him out of it. In the first place, to get a thorough blanketing of anthrax on Germany, that is enough to have an effect, would call for more bomber assets than the RAF could spare at the time. In the second place, Germany was losing the war anyway, it was just a matter of time until Hitler's defeat, and as terrifying as the V-2's were they weren't going to change that. In addition, the Allies would be occupying Germany after the war, and there's no such thing as a "patriotic germ," all that anthrax would kill Brits, Yanks, Russians, anyone it came in contact with just as well as it would kill Germans.
So the proposal was dropped. Winston calmed down and saw reason.
Scary, huh?
One of the Manhattan project physicists said of the V-2 "those weapons made very little sense to me without nuclear warheads." And he also went on to say "I listened to the BBC every night. Not so much because I wanted to hear the news, but rather because I was afraid one night I'd turn it on and they wouldn't be there." Luckily Von Braun's team was miles ahead of Heisenberg's which was proven by the time the Alsos group arrived at Heigerloch where the Nazi research reactor was built:
"Alsos" by the way is Greek for "a grove of trees", and General Leslie Groves who was in charge of the Manhattan District Engineers probably wouldn't have liked the ONI, OSRD and G-2 naming their mission a play on words using his name!
I'm sure that he didn't. Groves wasn't going to win any popularity contests (his picture probably turned up on dartboards) but he did see that the job got done.
This is second hand information from my hubby. According to his late grandfather the USN Medical corps learned one hell of a lesson at the Canal when close to 50% of the 1st Marines came down with Malaria during their time there that mosquito control was vital in the tropics and DDT and mosquito netting was almost as important as the bullets and helmets. It was nothing for the Navy to spray in the rear areas enough DDT to kill every single bug that was there.
Penny TrainsOne of the Manhattan project physicists said of the V-2 "those weapons made very little sense to me without nuclear warheads."
Just not in the modern sense. Heisenberg's effort was not aimed at prompt fission (and would likely not have produced anything technically usable for the required quantities of element needed for prompt chain reaction). It was clear to me even in my teens that the effort was aimed at radiological poisons, regardless of what Heisenberg tried to say about sabotaging the Nazi bomb effort later. Note that the issues (later brought up in connection with SCUDs in the Iraqi context) of degradation of chemical/biological weapons in ballistic flight do not apply to radiological material.
Now, how much the implicit (or explicit if Firelock's story is accurate) Porton Down threat governed the absence of radiological strikes remains an open question. Perhaps we will learn more when the wartime archives are fully opened.
Firelock76 'Dude, here's something even scarier. When the V-2's started falling on London, and there was no defense against them, to say Winston Churchill was furious about it is putting it mildly. He wanted to hit back against the Germans, and hit back hard, but how to do it? Well, you know the Brits had a biological warfare research program of their own, and had developed a particularly virulent form of anthrax. Churchill knew about it and immediately proposed hitting the Germans with it, gentlemanly warfare be damned! The RAF chiefs talked him out of it. In the first place, to get a thorough blanketing of anthrax on Germany, that is enough to have an effect, would call for more bomber assets than the RAF could spare at the time. In the second place, Germany was losing the war anyway, it was just a matter of time until Hitler's defeat, and as terrifying as the V-2's were they weren't going to change that. In addition, the Allies would be occupying Germany after the war, and there's no such thing as a "patriotic germ," all that anthrax would kill Brits, Yanks, Russians, anyone it came in contact with just as well as it would kill Germans. So the proposal was dropped. Winston calmed down and saw reason. Scary, huh?
"Butcher" Harris came up with a better plan anyway. Who needs anthrax when you have incendiary bombs, and lots of them!
I bet Dresden didn't find the RAF's response to be very gentlemanly.
Harris started showing what large scale incendiary bombing raids could do. LeMay however according to many in the 20th Air Force turned it into an art form. It was said LeMay had a map of every major Japanese city laid out on a table in the planning room. When 80 percent of the city was burned to ash he put a pin in it and supposedly said time for the next BBQing. He removed 4 tons of armor and guns from the B29 when he made them low level bombers. The weight he saved was converted into 4 tons more bombs. Normal raid high level was 20k lbs or 10 tons his low level planes staggered into the air with up to 29k lbs sometimes.
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