As the debate on museums and tourist railroads not presreving enough or there is more to be done after executives scrap locomotives and rolling stock anyways as they would be forced to consider anyone else would at least use the parts for their own operation as some museums have lost their homes as they'll be forced into thinning the herd when they don't have the room at the new location for their entire inventory as executives would be forced to consider how to move a reading T1 or an UP big boy along with a DD40AX.
Welcome to the Forum Danielm!
A bit of advice, and I'm not busting your chops by any means, but before you compose a post slow it down a couple of clicks, take a deep breath, think about what you want to say, and then start putting the words down. Watch your sentence structure and punctuation. I read your post and honestly I'm not sure what you're getting at.
I'm not trying to be the grammar cop here, just offering a bit of advice. Some posters here write better than others but I certainly don't want people to be scared away because their wordsmithing isn't as good as some others.
Read and look at what others posters do and learn from it. Remember what a wise man said, "Before you can write, you need to read!"
Again, welcome!
Danielm,
Welcome aboard my friend you will find no better group to share your railroad thoughts with than this steam lovin crew on the Trains Magazine Forum!
Couple of comments here - "the executives" who mostly scrapped all the steam - well this happened when I was a kid in the 1950's. Usually what remains in the way of preserved steam locomotives - is now fought over by an assortment of junk picking collector vultures - that feel hording the rusty junk locomotives is their chosen mission in life.
Take that vile crew of city officials in Elkhart, Indiana who have the last remaining New York Central passenger steam locomotive NYC 3001 firmly locked away in public - rusting away on display - now missing many parts - so they and the city museum can charge $5 a head for any rubber necks who would seek out New York Central railroad history as a curiosity. Thats right the rusting disolving locomotive is paying for some city income irregardless of what happens to it. THANKS ELKHART city with a heart or is it hart?
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Equally infamous are the "railfans gone bezerk" these are the craven rail wienies who want it all - all they can get hold of - to hord. Because its MINE! These groups can be found wherever steam locomotives operate. Here is their infamous call sign - "Its no problem - we can remake any steam engine regardless of heritage into whatever missing railroad locomotive icon we want!" Yes, here is the classic fight between the Coalition For Sustainable Rail and the City of Topeka Kansas. For the life and death struggle of the last remaining Santa Fe "Super Hudson" - ATSF 3463.
Either the engine dies by neglect and rusts to death in Topeka or it gets turned into the firebreathing science fiction monster locomotive of "Back To The Future III." Yah throw in the purple, red, and yellow logs and lets see if she will bust! I wonder if steam engines from the past can fly and defy gravity!
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The third topic you discussed concerned parts for steam locomotives. This is an interesting question because the American Steam Locomotive - now almost 70 years old and a "past technology" - was born in the blacksmith shop. By this I mean that most of the nature of its construction involves very few "packaged parts" for repair. Almost everything for a steam locomotive was custom made in the machine shop and foundry - it was a "low tech machine." I am sure you will enjoy finding out about the Strasburg Railroad in Pennsylvania where the Amish People perform these manufacturing processes for any steam restoring group in America.
Yes stocks of metric ball bearings, boiler flues, bronze billets for plain bearings etc are purchased from generic supliers. Inventories of water and steam valves, headlights, bells, whistles, number boards - these are not available in any corporate railroad inventory. No, these parts are NOW in the hands of "railroadanda collectors" who prize these steam locomotive parts as valuable artifacts - and who must let them go out of their control to restore any famous usable steam locomotive.
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Finally, similar to many British Railroads there remain a few authentic historic RAILROADS in America. I am thinking of EAST BROAD TOP in the east and CUMBRIES TOLTECH SENIC in the west. These railroads are just waiting for your generation to discover. Yes here are huge inventories of rusting rotting rail cars and steam locomotives and miles of track to run them on. All these railroads are looking for is for young people to walk up - get involved - and then spend their youthful energy fixing up a flat car, hopper car, box car or steam engine! So Go To It Young Lad! And don't forget to report your adventures here on the Forum!
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So thanks for the great question and lets have a few more!
-Doc
Danielm As the debate on museums and tourist railroads not presreving enough or there is more to be done after executives scrap locomotives and rolling stock anyways as they would be forced to consider anyone else would at least use the parts for their own operation as some museums have lost their homes as they'll be forced into thinning the herd when they don't have the room at the new location for their entire inventory as executives would be forced to consider how to move a reading T1 or an UP big boy along with a DD40AX.
Welcome DanielM,
Perhaps I'm the only one here that noticed, but you seem to be talking about the two articles in the May 2017 Trains issue that discuss whether or not we saved to much or too little and wanted to open up a debate on the Trains Forum about that topic. At least that is what I read from your post, and I wondered why no one else had opened up that topic yet, or better yet, why wasn't it put here by the Trains staff themselves, it seems something suited to this forum.
So, before I state my opinion on why and what I think the correct answer is, let's open the topic. Did we save to much or not enough?
GERALD L MCFARLANE JRlet's open the topic. Did we save too much or not enough?
The answer is solidly "both"; it depends on the context.
This subject has been repeatedly taken up by the participants on RyPN, a site largely by and for serious preservationists, and those discussions have been interesting.
Plenty has been lost that 'should' have been saved, ranging from NYC Hudsons to the last Shark booster carbody. But much of what was saved is not kept maintained, or succumbs to accident or vandalism, or is "deaccessioned" (a fancy museum term for 'gotten rid of') when there is no longer interest. There have been several vivid examples of what happens when 'the herd has to be thinned' in various contexts. Sometimes it is done rationally and caringly -- other times, egos or stupidity get in the way. The point is made often that there isn't time and money to keep everything, or even all the things a particular museum ought to keep ... and that is usually followed by notice that interest in all too many artifacts (not usually steam locomotives, but almost any other category) is waning as the folks interested in it age and, to put it gently, stop going to museums or on excursions.
I'd say it all depends on the willingness, dedication and interest of society in general towards preservation. Equipment can rust away in a museum just as easily as it can "in the wild", so to speak. In recent years a museum in South Africa(?) was forced to scrap several locomotives that were being cut up "in the middle of the night" by people scavenging for scrap metal. Granted, the scavengers were most often trying to get money for food, but it still comes down to wether or not a group can adequately protect what's being preserved.
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Did we save too much, or save too little? Well, the answer is "It depends."
If you're a rail museum and you've got so much equipment on hand you can't afford to keep it all up you've got too much, and you've got some hard decisions too make. Visitors aren't going to pay an admission fee to view a junkyard, they can do that free. A year or so ago there was a poster here who posted some shocking photographs of rail equipment rapidly deteriorating to absolute junk status in the Steamtown collection. They've got some hard decisions to make.
Some places I'm sure wish they had more, maybe they should network with those who have too much. It's a quandary with not easy answers.
I think that museums have to look at the overall, national picture. Some items were "oversaved", if there is such a word. As fine as they are, there sure are a lot of GG1s out there. Yet many first generation diesels are extinct. I guess it also depends on what railroads want to donate. The C&O, NKP, RDG and AT&SF, among others, did a fine job. Some others, not so much...
Backshop I think that museums have to look at the overall, national picture. Some items were "oversaved", if there is such a word. As fine as they are, there sure are a lot of GG1s out there. Yet many first generation diesels are extinct. I guess it also depends on what railroads want to donate. The C&O, NKP, RDG and AT&SF, among others, did a fine job. Some others, not so much...
They were not in the business of preserving history, their competitors were not either. You don't find many preserved dc 7 or 707, not many historical trucks, or ships or tugs. Many railroads were fighting for their lives even as early as the late fifties. NYC was struggling with the NYC thruway, the Ohio turnpike that were built with tax payers funds and parallel their main lines. Railroading in the east and north east was bleak. They were fighting for their future, not looking backwards. They were fighting changing times, factories were moving south, not out of the country. The were fighting the low cost and very flexible trucking industry, along with barges and pipelines. Every dollar was needed to compete.
With that said some roads did a better job, some saw it as preserving it's culture, the best being the Union Pacific.
Preservation is not easy when it comes out of your bottom line and you have to rationalize it to your stock holders. Preserving steam or their jobs, wasn't a hard decision.
Let's be thankful for the roads that did more and more thankfully to the roads that still do.
Firelock76 Did we save too much, or save too little? Well, the answer is "It depends." If you're a rail museum and you've got so much equipment on hand you can't afford to keep it all up you've got too much, and you've got some hard decisions too make. Visitors aren't going to pay an admission fee to view a junkyard, they can do that free. A year or so ago there was a poster here who posted some shocking photographs of rail equipment rapidly deteriorating to absolute junk status in the Steamtown collection. They've got some hard decisions to make. Some places I'm sure wish they had more, maybe they should network with those who have too much. It's a quandary with not easy answers. I think you hit it on the head. Fire lock, some museum are blessed with large collection, but not the funding to maintain them. In their cases, less may be more. Unfortunately its hard for any organization to give up some of their collections, hard to move and even harder to find a buyer with the funding. Even with the case of the 1309, it appears even getting state or local funding for a project that will be an economic driver for the community is hard to resolve. It's definitely a hard thing to pull off.
ROBERT WILLISONYou don't find many preserved dc 7 or 707, not many historical trucks, or ships or tugs.
That's always been true. Scrap value usually won when compared with historical, philanthropic or public relations value. Every once in awhile someone comes foreward with a plan to save this beauty from the torch:
http://cruiselinehistory.com/?s=united+states
It would be great to see her at least turned into a hotel/convention center like the Queen Mary but Philly doesn't really seem to be the best place to do it. Dockage and maintenance costs are about 60 thou a month. Unless a real plan for development can be hammered out, she'll have to be scrapped. Imagine how few steam locomotives we'd have today if the overhead costs were similar.
Concerning steamships that now serve as fast hotels (fast to the dock) has anyone else styed at the Delta King in Sacramento? It, along with the Delta Queen, (which migrated to the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers) were built for overnight service between Sacramento and San Francisco. My wife and I spent a night there several years ago.
Johnny
Penny Trains ROBERT WILLISON You don't find many preserved dc 7 or 707, not many historical trucks, or ships or tugs. That's always been true. Scrap value usually won when compared with historical, philanthropic or public relations value. Every once in awhile someone comes foreward with a plan to save this beauty from the torch: http://cruiselinehistory.com/?s=united+states It would be great to see her at least turned into a hotel/convention center like the Queen Mary but Philly doesn't really seem to be the best place to do it. Dockage and maintenance costs are about 60 thou a month. Unless a real plan for development can be hammered out, she'll have to be scrapped. Imagine how few steam locomotives we'd have today if the overhead costs were similar.
ROBERT WILLISON You don't find many preserved dc 7 or 707, not many historical trucks, or ships or tugs.
Right you are Becky, and there's the rub. Big antiques, whether they're ocean liners, B-17's, steam locomotives, or buildings still have to earn their keep in one way or another, or eventually they're doomed.
Sad to see a magnificent example of the shipbuilder's art like the United States, the holder of the "Blue Ribband Of The North Atlantic", wasting away like that, isn't it? See that discoloration just above the waterline, that greyish-pinkish strip? The steel got that way from the ship speeding it's way across the Atlantic, the sheer pounding of the salt water against the steel, she was that fast, 35-plus knots at least, and her top speed was considered a state secret, because there was always a possibility she might be used as a troop ship in a future war.
And who knows what the interior looks like?
Like the poet said about "Old Ironsides..."
Better that her shattered hull should sink beneath the wave,
Her thunders shook the mighty deep, and there should be her grave!
Sad, just sad.
A personal note. I remember my father driving us down the west side of Manhattan when I was a boy to have a look at the ocean liners, and there they were in all their glory, the Queen Mary, the Queen Elizabeth, and the United States. The sight and the size of them took my eight year old breath away!
Maybe some of you reading this had the same experience?
Not to totally derail this thread, but isn't the United States aluminum hulled and hence one of the reasons she's in such great shape?
Kielbasa Not to totally derail this thread, but isn't the United States aluminum hulled and hence one of the reasons she's in such great shape?
Regarding "The Big U," it was sold sometime in the 1980s and its interior was totally gutted. Its a bare shell inside. 20 or so years ago it was towed from Norfolk (where it sat since 1968) to Turkey and the asbestos was removed. It was then towed to Philly. When I was stationed in Norfolk between 1974 & 1979 I used to see it every day. it would occasioanally be towed to a different pier and it was well maintained. All of its interior fittings, furniture and linens and so forth were still stored on board. I was told by a chief on my ship that the engines were jacked over ever couple of days. I once tried to drive into the area where it was tied up but a security guard said that there was no way possible.
There would be occasional articles in the paper about rumours of it being revived as the 20,000 jobs (shore staff, not just the crew) associated with the ship were all in the Hampton Roads area but nothing ever came of it. A damned shame and I think it's destined for scrap. There are You Tube videos where you can take a virtual tour of the ship and it looks pretty hopeless. The amount of money to restore it would be incredible.
KielbasaNot to totally derail this thread, but isn't the United States aluminum hulled
If you look at Penny's picture immediately preceding, you can see the corrosion down the hull.
It's the superstructure that is primarily aluminum (the Gibbses were very careful to avoid a Morro-Castle-like situation by keeping any material that would support combustion to a minimum, and reputedly any part containing wood was swapped out for one made in aluminum...)
Supposedly the only wooden bits on the ship were the pianos and butcher blocks. Gibbs was also thinking of the Normandie.
54light15Supposedly the only wooden bits on the ship were the pianos and butcher blocks.
And Gibbs wanted the pianos in aluminum, too - he could have used Bluethners with golden-tone aliquot resonance ... a larger version of:
Or ... sexier ... Rippen
Well I stand corrected. Damn shame that a ship bearing the name of our nation with her pedigree isn't worth saving in the eyes of our government. Hopefully the foundation is able to save her, every few years some generous donor comes along and gives them enough to get by for a little longer. We managed to save four Iowa class (albeit in much better condition) and we only have one SS United States.
Well it was only last August that Crystal Cruises officially gave up on the idea of restoring her to seaworthiness. According to this article: http://cruiselinehistory.com/crystal-cruises-throws-in-the-towel-on-saving-the-ss-united-states-but-activists-continue-the-fight/ the primary sticking point appeared to be the engines. They're steam, and replacing them with modern diesels would have required a redo and possibly a re-engineering of at least 25% the hull.
Not so pretty, but not so unfixable either!
Thing is that you'd want to save the steam plant as a historical exhibit of sorts, and at the same time provide modern thruster pods a la QM2 in lieu of alternative power to the four shafts, which would require little opening of the hull for their reinforcement. The 'kicker' is getting the replacement engines, basically large gensets, into the ship ... but 25% of the hull? That's full replacement, the thing that killed the SS France/Norway, and not needed here.
Not the usual amenities and space on a modern cruise ship, either, which I suspect is one of the real 'secret reasons' this hasn't proceeded: the major thing, I think, might have been the issue of the Jones Act and a Hong Kong company taking over perhaps the most famous and iconic modern United States liner.
Ah-ha- the likely real reasons revealed.
Q?- Why must it be converted to something other than the original steam..I'm sure technology could reduce emissions substantially or it can get a historical waiver of sorts.
So sorry and sad to see it like this. Hollywood, Mark Cuban, EHH, someone should step up and form a consortium.
They still have this!
On June 23, 2012 the SS Keewatin, the last of the CPR Ships built in 1907, was returned to Port McNicoll where it had worked from 1912 until 1967. Keewatin is the last Edwardian steamship left in the world.[3] The SS Keewatin is in pristine condition on June 23, 2012 and is open for visitors from late April until mid October from 9 am until 5 pm.
A fine reminder of the Titanic days. The engine room is incredibly beautiful and all original. Check it out.
The only reason for pulling the steam engines out of the United States would be for adapting it to cruising, as opposed to it's original purpose of trans-Atlantic crossings.
According to what I've read, diesel engines are more efficient for the "stop-and-go" sailing that purpose-built cruise ships are intended for. For a trans-Atlantic crossing, or any major ocean crossing where the ship is brought up to it's sailing speed and kept there for however many days the crossing takes, steam is more efficient. Anyway, there's nothing wrong with the hull design and no reason to alter it. OK, maybe bow and stern thrusters for ease of docking, but nothing else is needed.
At any rate, look at all the features and amenities that modern cruising ships have to offer and by comparison something like the United States is totally outdated, it'd probably be cheaper to build a whole new ship than convert the United States to be able to compete with them. Damn it.
There's one advantage the old girl has over the new cruisers, those new ships are UGLY! At least to a traditionalist like myself. The things look like garish, overdecorated floating shoeboxes! Probably wouldn't last thirty seconds on the North Atlantic in winter, not like the old timers. The United States LOOKS like an ocean liner, even in it's state of decrepitude.
MiningmanQ?- Why must it be converted to something other than the original steam..I'm sure technology could reduce emissions substantially or it can get a historical waiver of sorts.
Emissions are likely not the elephant-in-the-room problem. That is a sophisticated and VERY large steam plant, using an enormous amount of very proprietary technology that hasn't been marketed or made in many decades. (While not an entirely fair analogy, think how many, say, ATSF 3463s represent that potential 212K shp...) Very little of this would be of positive interest to the ship's presumptive clientele; I doubt boat nerds would account for more than a small percentage of desired repeat business. Even with no 'adaptive reuse' of some proportion of the machinery spaces for cruise related purposes (casino, perhaps?) why renovate extensive obsolete machinery to make the ship go fast if your business model explicitly says otherwise?
On the other hand, I do suspect that emissions from boilers of this kind will be relatively immense and require all sorts of expensive abatement and special controls -- still more money thrown down a hole no one gets revenue from filling. And all this before you start thinking about maneuverability of a ship this size with four fixed wheels in a world of substantially fewer tugs, and more cost to arrange for them...
Thanks for the prompt reply. The SS United States as a casino is a nightmare scenario....better it where a Trump Hotel! Make it into a mobile White House ala Air Force One...endless Federal Funds available!
...and you can legitimately and proudly keep the name.
Firelock76There's one advantage the old girl has over the new cruisers, those new ships are UGLY! At least to a traditionalist like myself. The things look like garish, overdecorated floating shoeboxes! Probably wouldn't last thirty seconds on the North Atlantic in winter, not like the old timers. The United States LOOKS like an ocean liner, even in it's state of decrepitude.
I've got to agree with you there. Those big floating hotels just don't look seaworthy to me. Of course, neither do those loaded container ships.
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"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
I guess I grew up at the end of the great age of Industrial Arts - of the Industrial Revolution. An age of steam passenger trains - the finest in the world! An age of the great steam passenger liners also finest in the world.
Yes I can remember them docked in New York side by side - RMS Queen Mary - RMS Queen Elizabeth - SS United States - SS Ille De France - SS America and SS France.
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They were the trans Atlantic liners for those passengers who just could not comprehend the fragility of the piston engine - the "Lockheed Constellation" and flying the Atlantic! In an age when too many air disasters happened and also near in memory were the World War II "Flying Fortress" and "Superfortress" which were just not the kind of thing your could travel in.
Yes this was an age when the Pan Am flying boat was of quite recent memory and the only suitable venue for the truely hardy traveler. Because you could always set them down in mid ocean as boats.
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Yes the trans Atlantic passenger steam ship trade was well established also - with regular sailings weekly and a time when one committed themselves to pampered care and at least three full days at sea - and away from the work day world.
Weather forcasting was in its infancy without satellite and reliable prediction and the chances of a rough weather North Atlantic crossing in winter were always to be expected. An age of radio communication when television was a small black white tube broadcast live and only 12 hours per day on maybe 3 major network channels if and when you could get the signal. When telephone was only done across oceans by underwater ocean cable. When Western Union Telegram was necessary for truely fast reliable communication and most persons still relied on the timely recept of information by mail in the form of letter.
Yes a strong and fast steam passenger ship - with all the ammenities - from formal dining and ball room dancing was to be desired and it was a fine way to travel.
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The SS United States was built in 1952 late in the game - arriving just before the end of the trans Atlantic passenger trade by steamship ended. lt was a massive ship which was grandly designed and built with massive amounts of government money and engineering to reveal the ultimate potential war troop transport.
Remember the last use of a war troop transport was in the British Falkland Islands campaign with Argentina in 1982. When the British filled the Queen Elizabeth II with soldiers and shiped them to fight in the South Atlantic. A high risk military adventure in the age of ship destroying guided missles.
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The SS United States featured no large ball room or dining areas. Rather it was designed with small space compartmentalization for war time damage control. Also some of the most powerful steam turbine engines ever placed in a ship with massive speed potential available 240,000 shaft horsepower - that was kept as a state secret and never opened up or measured even for the race for the "Blue Riband" trans Atlantic trophy. It was built to steam 10,000 miles non stop at a crusing speed of 40 miles per hour. She has the greatest power to weight ratio of any passenger liner ever built before or since. The ship could travel backwards in reverse at 23 miles per hour. Controversy has surounded her top speed which is said to be 50 miles per hour.
This was the "greyhound of the ocean" - and guess what folks! is still mostly with us and mostly intact! Bearing the name of our nation!
So why is the US Navy willing to save the original wooden sailing frigate USS Constitution and numerous battleships - USS Missouri - USS Iowa - USS Wisconson - USS New Jersey and yet willing to let this glorious construction of a passenger liner go to scrap.
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Consider also the building of the SS France which bore the name of that nation and came to the trans Atlantic trade very very late. Also very beautiful ship - not a war transport - but a very beautiful liner for the nation that lost it famous liner SS Normande - as a casulty of war.
SS France was sold and later taken on by Norwegan Steamship line as a tourist liner. Ill adapted to the tourist trade and eventually suffering a boiler explosion owing to poor maintaince - the famous and last newest trans Atlantic liner went to scrap in India where little law governs the destruction of great ships by oxy acetylene torch.
The nation of France has had the interest to reconstruct with original hand tools the original French sailing frigate HERMONE - which massive spending and took ten years - and then sail it across the Atlantic Ocean this last year to visit America. Seems they could have had an interest in an original passenger liner which would be much more useful to just about everyone.
RMS Queen Elizabeth - gone burned in Hong Kong
SS France - gone scrapped in India
RMS Queen Mary - stripped of engines saved as an entertainment venue
SS United States - sorta saved gutted of interior by souvineer hunters
SS America - gone wrecked on the way to scrapping
SS Ille De France - gone
Why should our nation save the great British liner SS Queen Mary and yet be so ignorant of the remarkable technology present in its own name sake liner? Why should Britain the founder and builder of the great trans Atlantic liners and trade have none of its great passenger liners - NONE?
NO MEDIA ATTENTION - and yes the US Navy would not have the original wooden frigate warship USS Constitution if Supreme Court Justice Oliver Wendel Holmes had not written and published the famous poem that saved the ship.
"Eye tear her tattered ensign down - long has it waved on high!
And many an eye has danced to see that banner in the sky!
Beneath it hung the battle shout and burst the cannons roar!
The metor of the ocean air shall sweap the clouds no more!
O better that here shattered hulk should sink beneath the wave!
Her thunders shook the mighty deep and there should be her grave!
Nail to the mast her holy flag and set every threadbare sail!
And give her the god of storms the lightening and the gale!"
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Someone needs to do something or there will be no great liners left - as there are no true clipper ships remaining either. This ought to be on someones historical venue. Plans to restore the ship have continued through August 15th 2016 but have continually fallen apart.
- the potential however still remains
- Doc
The potential for what? Preserving steam locomotives in operational condition eats a lot of money, who has the millions (billions?) required to restore a sizable liner to seaworthiness and to what end?
Ah, yes, the day of many transatlantic sailings--listed in the Guide!
Oh, yes--Oliver Wendell Holmes wrote, "Aye, tear her tattered ensign down...." I went on board her once, in 1979, and had to stoop when on the gun deck. Men were shorter when she was built.
Isn't the Constellation also preserved, in Baltimore?
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