dakotafred,
Ok I checked out the "kelsey bray edgar dickens" thread on Google.
I feel it lacks informational credability and smacks of way too much drama.
It is a shame to see Union Pacific Railroad going through this employee conflict while attempting to establish a world class steam operation. It reminds me of the 1980's when UP allowed a group of employees to volunteer to restore UP 3895 Challenger. The railroad made them sign a statement to the effect -
"Employees will be allowed to work on the UP 3895 but UP will have no obligation to retain them for this purpose and these employees will have no responsibility or connection to the locomotive operation of UP 3895."
Employee conflict issues are common to most public schools, businesses, and government agencies, and even churches. The Secret Service and White House controversy are present examples. There is always theft, embezzlement, crime to deal with and there are always "fragile people" that get into institutions and businesses and then reside there as if by entitlement. The psychological term is "getting stuck" emotionally in a particular relationship, job or place. When asked to "get in step" they "get sick instead" blaming others for their imperfect world. Disturbed employees can sometimes "act out" with crimes of sabatoge, or other criminal behavior such as bringing guns to work and shooting up the place. Corporate personal departments often have many human relations problems to work out.
My opinion after watching Ed Dickens as a media person, is that he is the first corporate leader to put a face on a faceless Union Pacific Steam Program. Ed Dickens charmed us all with his regular video presentations on the UP 4014 move and his preparation of public reception of the locomotive as it moved across America.
I cannot recall Steve Lee developing a public relations effort. Further, watching Steve Lee on U-Tube I am struck by how much he lacks as a public speaker. I grant you that under his leadership the "UP Steam Program" has presented operational locomotives for years without incident or accident or catastrophic failure.
Union Pacific is a corporate business. Operations like "UP Steam Program" draw all kinds of obsessive behavior owing to the unique and irregular nature of their erotic public relations activity. It is a shame if Union Pacific gets a black eye over this. Wyoming Nazis in the UP Steam Shop - give me a break!
I am more concerned over the corporate supervision over Ed Dickens. Who would approve a massive steam shop building program? Who decided that an expanded steam stable of engines was needed? Who set out to retain Ed Dickens and authorized the hiring of more professional talent for the existing steam crew?
The question also remains, were there serious employee "territorial problems" before that we did not know about? Was the Steve Lee steam program and its staff failing the corporation in some way? I find it hard to believe that Ed Dickens just came out of no where to be a "home wrecker" at the UP Steam Program.
Dakotafred there are serious other questions behind your disatisfaction - do you really want to raise them at the corporations expense?
Doc
I read a number of the articles cited under kelsey bray edgar dickens also.
I have to say that my earlier post about a housecleaning in the steam shop seems sadly to be all too true. It appears to me as if some significant corporate politics, at several levels, were and still are at play in this particular situation. The Steam Programme is in danger of being the loser in all of this.....
I cannot make an informed comment about the lawsuit by Mr Krening; however, I believe I can fairly comment about the general state of labour relations in the steam shop based on the material I read.
It sounds as if the working environment in that place is toxic (even if it seems to smack of drama and even if not all of it can be substantiated or proven). Mr Dickens as the Senior Manager has to bear at least some of the responsibility for it being so. The maintenance of good labour relations (with managers/employees at all levels and of varying ages withiin the shop) is one part of his job description, I'm sure.
Also, as a steam shop I believe its primary job is to repair/rebuild/maintain the equipment in its care. Mr Lee clearly did that job well. The wheels turned and the equipment was well maintained and run. If he was not a public relations man, perhaps that was his downfall. Perhaps he just retired.
However as a retired power engineer (who ran his own plant), among other things, I do know that he clearly knew the working end of the steam programme. His results spoke for themselves. The railway has lots of PR people. It has many less good steam people (machinists, boilermakers etc) I'll wager. These people don't just grow on trees.
Mr Dickens by your account is a good PR man but if he is unable to run the shop effectively (labour relations and all) and keep the steam equipment working well, I'll tell you where my vote goes. It will not go to him.
UP appears to have a major problem in this programme on the face of it. I was in management long in my last career as a parish priest and regional administrator/leader within the church to know (or at least suspect) deficient leadership when I saw it. In this case both Mr Dickens and the people who put him there have some explaining to do.
If not, I foresee yet more trouble for UP Steam Operations.
Hopefully he can get the wheels turning (under their own steam) but at the moment, as things appear to stand, I'm not holding my breath.
Charlie
Chilliwack, BC
Dr D dakotafred, Ok I checked out the "kelsey bray edgar dickens" thread on Google. I feel it lacks informational credability and smacks of way too much drama. It is a shame to see Union Pacific Railroad going through this employee conflict while attempting to establish a world class steam operation. It reminds me of the 1980's when UP allowed a group of employees to volunteer to restore UP 3895 Challenger. The railroad made them sign a statement to the effect - "Employees will be allowed to work on the UP 3895 but UP will have no obligation to retain them for this purpose and these employees will have no responsibility or connection to the locomotive operation of UP 3895." Employee conflict issues are common to most public schools, businesses, and government agencies, and even churches. The Secret Service and White House controversy are present examples. There is always theft, embezzlement, crime to deal with and there are always "fragile people" that get into institutions and businesses and then reside there as if by entitlment. The psychological term is "getting stuck" emotionally in a particular relationship, job or place. When asked to "get in step" they "get sick instead" blaming others for their imperfect world. Disturbed employees can sometimes "act out" with crimes of sabatoge, or other criminal behavior such as bringing guns to work and shooting up the place. Corporate personal departments often have many human relations problems to work out. My opinion after watching Ed Dickens as a media person, is that he is the first corporate leader to put a face on a faceless Union Pacific Steam Program. Ed Dickens charmed us all with his regular video presentations on the UP 4014 move and his preparation of public reception of the locomotive as it moved across America. I cannot recall Steve Lee developing a public relations effort. Further, watching Steve Lee on U-Tube I am struck by how much he lacks as a public speaker. I grant you that under his leadership the "UP Steam Program" has presented operational locomotives for years without incident or accident or catastrophic failure. Union Pacific is a corporate business. Operations like "UP Steam Program" draw all kinds of obsessive behavior owing to the unique and irregular nature of their erotic public relations activity. It is a shame if Union Pacific gets a black eye over this. Wyoming Nazis in the UP Steam Shop - give me a break! I am more concerned over the corporate supervision over Ed Dickens. Who would approve a massive steam shop building program? Who decided that an expanded steam stable of engines was needed? Who set out to retain Ed Dickens and authorized the hiring of more professional talent for the existing steam crew? The question also remains, were there serious employee "territorial problems" before that we did not know about? Was the Steve Lee steam program and its staff failing the corporation in some way? I find it hard to believe that Ed Dickens just came out of no where to be a "home wrecker" at the UP Steam Program. Dakotafred there are serious other questions behind your disatisfaction - do you really want to raise them at the corporations expense? Doc
Employee conflict issues are common to most public schools, businesses, and government agencies, and even churches. The Secret Service and White House controversy are present examples. There is always theft, embezzlement, crime to deal with and there are always "fragile people" that get into institutions and businesses and then reside there as if by entitlment. The psychological term is "getting stuck" emotionally in a particular relationship, job or place. When asked to "get in step" they "get sick instead" blaming others for their imperfect world. Disturbed employees can sometimes "act out" with crimes of sabatoge, or other criminal behavior such as bringing guns to work and shooting up the place. Corporate personal departments often have many human relations problems to work out.
Many good points in here. Be assured, Doc, I have nothing against U.P. or any desire to cause it injury. I worked for them in Cheyenne for 7 years in the '60s and '70s and saw the 844 in action many times.
One of my most vivid memories, from '66 or '67, was standing in the freight yard and watching it steam out of town in the middle of the night at the head of a freight in a deadhead move to Denver for an upcoming passenger run.
Re. Steve Lee: I think the best PR for the road's steam program were the locomotives he kept on the road so successfully for so long.
Those that don't learn from the mistakes of the past are bound to repeat them.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Charlie,
I do take issue with your post. If you read my post carefully you will see I was trying to develop the same issue. If you want to take issue, take it with the truth. I am not championing Ed Dickens or Steve Lee or Union Pacific.
I am pointing out that corporate business is top down in structure and sometimes heartless. Its primary and major goal is the income of money and as a result of such authority managerial egos are usually championed right or wrong. Unlike the church corporate moral compunction is not major consideration but legal responsibility and liability is! Managment owns the place, employees do not.
This thread has been going "nowhere for a while" except for asking un-answered question and the expression of anger and depression by Dakotafred and fear on the part of a few others. Dakotafred's news is old, dating from December 27, 2013.
I would guess the railroad deals with hundreds of similar law suits from disgrunteled employees, customers and "neighbors of the railroad" often making similar types of complaint. Lost shipments, damaged shipments, pilfered shipments. Accidents, injuries, etc. The legal department must handle them by the hundreds.
Everyone wants to know why is it that UP 844 is down, why no steam trains are running? - incompetence or employee sabatoge? employee revolt? Why could a major corporate head like Ed Dickens deny employees the use of the lavatory? Why manage an employee to cause stress and illness? This is obviously a "push you shove me" shouting match of childish behavior between employees and managment. "Ed Dickens plays Nazi music and is trying to rule the steam shop as the Third Riech!" Is anyone really expected to believe this?
I don't know why Ed Dickens is having problems, I don't know why he was placed in charge. I can also see dis-satisfaction with him by the old steam crew and I can see an attempt to make a "scapegoat" out of him. It would also appear the the railroad is giving him authority to make changes regardless of cost.
As a church leader how often have you seen immature behavior on the part of clergy. They get moved to a new parish and won't quit involvement with their old perish. They put their ego forward to people as if it was their only concern. They take advantage of their church often commiting crimes of theft and moral turpitude. Often their behavior is most unlike what they would emulate. Church members are often equally culpable in such behavior in the abuse of clergy, false accusation, embezzlement and crime and the abandonment of the purpose of the church forming it into some kind of social club.
Was Steve Lee unable to turn over leadership to Ed Dickens? Was a revolt fermented in this by him? Was the group camaradarie bound togeather and excluding changes the railroad desire to make? Was the refusal to accept his leadership and change purposeful?
We are into 2015 and Union Pacific has not pulled Ed Dickens out of managment but the old steam crew has continued to leave. This speaks for itself, that the railroad is going with Ed Dickens and a "new crew" will be built. Railfans will just have to wait for a steam program. It wouldn't have killed the steam crew to try to make the changes which managment needed?
Further, the complaints of the "old crew" are not coming to us in an honoralble fashion. Why are we hearing "Dickens wants us to work out of our area of expertise." Why not learn some new skills? Further, have any real acts of abuse by managment been done to them? None we have heard of, just petty gripes and accusations. That speaks to their real issues!
Charlie, you have been in Christian church managment in a time of wholesale loss of church membership through out Canada and the United States. I for one question this loss - I would not be proud of church managment in our time. Trains Magazine generally forbids religious discussion and the bringing of your career to the front by example although commendable and honorable is un-necessary.
With Respect,
Dr d don't be harsh on charlie. Many people talk about their careers or Jobs to provide in sight into their view points. Charlie just is following their examples, no different, no better or worse and no hints of religion.
Robert,
Charlie? I like him, he gave me a good comeback! Man of the cloth and glad to know him!
Well Doc
I really don't know what to say in response to you. I believe I read your post carefully before I replied. If we're saying the same thing, as you suggest, then why take such a long time to make what appears to me to be rather like a refutation of what I said. Also, as RW pointed out above, I wasn't being overtly religious, nor did I intend to be. I was simply expressing my POV....as are you.
Your remarks about the church and its management style, relative to corporate management style aren't entirely accurate in my years of experience. There are different styles used by many different judicatories. The corporate style has been and continues to be one used within my denomination and others as well.....and with similar effect to what you described.
My remarks in my previous post were also based on my prior experience as a Power Engineer who ran his own plant and was responsible for other people and their work as well as plant operation, maintenance and upgrade. I still have an interest in many things 'steam' and have had for many years.
Mr Dickens has made his bed. He now gets to lie in it. I hope the Steam programme isn't the loser.
I'll stick with my remarks and the spirit in which I made them.
With Respect
Your post helped address the unspoken - the fear, the depression, the anger. It is the tragedy of the long faithful employees of the "Steve Lee administration" that provided us a good steam program for the years - that they are unappreciated - and must exit their heroic task as unsung heros - this is the unspoken heart ache.
Of course I forgot, you follow just such a broken man yourself! "The wheel of the world ran over him" and he has been hanging on a cross shaming us all for centuries and calling us to a better way to live! At least I thought you would understand the heroic roll of such suffering servants.
These "Steve Lee people" are simply walking away from the corporate structure and program they were committed to for so long. Why? Ed Dickens is obviously in charge with the program, why?
You are claiming bad managment I am inquiring about a possible disfunctional group structure or other logical causes? Could it be Union Pacific is really planning to ramp up the steam program and its facilities while the "old crew" was just not going to go along with this? Or is the Ed Dickens managment group just bad old abusive corporate structure all covered with wealth and power and not caring about the little guys?
Whatever the reason there is nothing we can do about it except exclaiming "What a way to run a railroad!"
"WHAT A WAY TO RUN A RAILROAD!"
And hoping that Union Pacific does indeed know how to "run a railroad!"
HAPPY EASTER CHARLIE!
Well said Charlie... Up got itself into this Mess, only up can find its way out. The truth is some where in the middle, bad labor relations on the part of up management and the unwillness for the steam team to change. Its just unbelievable that its coming at such a critical time in the program with # 4014 and her stable mates hanging in the balance. ( at least it how it appears to some )
Doc,
You will search my posts in vain for fear, depression and anger. I am sometimes sharp ... but also usually brief, a virtue you might study. I find your own posts to be long on speculation but short on news and facts.
Dakotafred,
Thanks, I'll think of that when I'm writing my book!
Rail Giants Train museum from Los Angeles County Fairgrounds, Pomona California was at Cheyenne Wy., May 16 & 17th. 4014 was parked there on display, for 50 years before UP acquired it for restoration, because it was in the best shape of all the 8 Big Boys existing. This is due to the mild climate in Southern California.
They also have the only remaining UP 9000 series 3 cylinder, 4-12-2 steam locomotive. It is the largest steam loco built on a rigid frame. Would be amazing to restore that engine and see it running.
That location in Pomona is also where the NHRA Winternationals and Finals Pro drag racing events are held.
UP 9000 is not well understood as a super power locomotive!
For UP to have built so many of them and for the specifications and design being one that lead to the Challenger 4-6-6-4 and Big Boy 4-8-8-4, I think we need to take another look and the 4-12-2 locomotives.
UP 9000 like the Big Boy 4014 is also the only locomotive of its kind and was built exclusively for Union Pacific. UP 9000 series also carries the name of the railroad as a type - 4-12-2 UNION PACIFIC TYPE.
History has also shown that inspite of inherent design speed restrictions the railroad overcame these and ran these locomotives extensively on main line and branch line service with speeds regularly into the 60 mph range for 35 years. I don't think Big Boy ever ran any faster and certainly not for as long! Amazing locomotive and pure UNION PACIFIC!
The UP was always a railroad a "cut apart" from any other - I never stop enjoying that it is the last of the "Unfallen Flags" and is the true mother of historic steam railroad operations! Hats off! to Union Pacific! a company that carries the flag in its logo and truely defines America!
I was in Cheyenne for UP's open house last month...it didn't appear that a lot of work had been done on 4014. Some of the boiler jacketing is off, and the covers are of the cylinders. I didn't see much else that had been done. Looks like they're concentrating on 844 right now-their stated goal is to have it running by September, and it pretty well disassembled right now. I imagine once 844 is running, then a lot more will be done on the Big Boy. Remember, the plan isn't to haveit running till 2019.
Thechief66 I was in Cheyenne for UP's open house last month...it didn't appear that a lot of work had been done on 4014. Some of the boiler jacketing is off, and the covers are of the cylinders. I didn't see much else that had been done. Looks like they're concentrating on 844 right now-their stated goal is to have it running by September, and it pretty well disassembled right now. I imagine once 844 is running, then a lot more will be done on the Big Boy. Remember, the plan isn't to haveit running till 2019.
Guess they have to get one of the UP Steamers running ASAP now that the 611 is operating and getting all the attention.
I remember one old fellow at the Pomona fairgrounds commenting on 4014 when it had just been moved 500 feet , he said," I hope I live long enough to see the Big Boy when they get it running again"
One year down, four to go for 4014. Ed Dickens was evidently picked by UP to head up the steam division for some reason. He had worked on another steam organization in Colorado where he learned the ins and outs of steam locomotive technology. Anyone who has had experience working under any manager knows they have to be the bad guy sometimes, and different managers have their own styles of management from mellow to hard. I met him in Pomona Calif. where the 4014 sat for 50 years. He was very matter of fact and businesslike.
Great point, I think things will continue to stabilize and move forward.
groomer manWhy did all the people leave the steam program at UP?
Could you give us some details on who "all the people" were who left?
Also, "Why" if you know.
Thanks
BBF
Big Boy Forever groomer man Could you give us some details on who "all the people" were who left? Also, "Why" if you know. Thanks BBF
groomer man
Are most involved in the Steam Program paid employees or volunteers?
Volunteers don't respond well when they are treated as paid employees.
BaltACD Big Boy Forever groomer man Could you give us some details on who "all the people" were who left? Also, "Why" if you know. Thanks BBF Are most involved in the Steam Program paid employees or volunteers? Volunteers don't respond well when they are treated as paid employees.
Paid employees. As far as why, let's just say I'd recommend an internet search. It will be VERY interesting to you.
Everything is on hold right now the man in charge is no longer there he was let go and something about the money from whoever it was that was going to give the money to have it rebuilt has back out of the deal, this is from a person who knows what is going on because of who he works for
stdgauge BaltACD Big Boy Forever groomer man Could you give us some details on who "all the people" were who left? Also, "Why" if you know. Thanks BBF Are most involved in the Steam Program paid employees or volunteers? Volunteers don't respond well when they are treated as paid employees. Paid employees. As far as why, let's just say I'd recommend an internet search. It will be VERY interesting to you.
I did an internet search all I could find was about a stress lawsuit filed by one employee, with bizarre allegations which was dismissed by the judge.
Nothing else about what is going on over there in the Cheyenne steam shop.
Now someone is saying that everything is on hold and the man in charge was let go. Does that mean Ed Dickens was fired?
How about the whole crew who moved the 4014 from California to Cheyenne?
Did they all quit? Is there a new crew?
Anyone know?
the 3rd party ,if there ever was one backed out a long time ago
That's old news . Please clarify "the guy in charge "got let go???
Come on if your going to post please have COMPLETE verifiable
Facts & sources please trains577 Everything is on hold right now the man in charge is no longer there he was let go and something about the money from whoever it was that was going to give the money to have it rebuilt has back out of the deal, this is from a person who knows what is going on because of who he works for
trains577 Everything is on hold right now the man in charge is no longer there he was let go and something about the money from whoever it was that was going to give the money to have it rebuilt has back out of the deal, this is from a person who knows what is going on because of who he works for
What's the story of the steam program's tool car that was destroyed in Texas? Seen this mentioned in the list of issues that people are raising with the current steam program management, but never seen any details about it.
Whoever spotted the boxcar either didn't put on the handbrakes or left it to close to the switch and it was hit by a gondola
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2990059
This was right after the Ed Dickens and Co. screw up that led to flat spots on 844.
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