Reply # 210 :
Hi M636C
Well, sure – in engineering it was important to do things right – still is so more than ever .
An arrangement looked much better with coffin preheater fit into the smokebox rather than in front of it . However , that solution must have brought other complications , only think of pulling the tubes ( once they were pulled it didn’t matter , but what about fitting new ones without bending them ?) Problem was the shape of the preheater reached too far down the sides .
Or , all in all I’d have preferred a ‘coffee preheater’ – especially since a compact version of it , the espresso preheater , could have been used for small engines .
( sorry , it somehow seems hard for me to stay serious about this )
Here are some links to see more of the engines :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LDamj-Svvo
# 5344 virtual video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0AGYIVjNIg&feature=related
NYC Hudsons along the Hudson – as far as stack sound can be heard on the faster by runs valve gear appears pretty well tuned
http://toytrains1.net/hudson.htm
some nice pictures of models and real engines :
Regards
Juniatha
I lucked into a copy of Ron Zeil and Mike Eagleson's "Twilight of World Steam" yesterday, and found this on the last page. No author is listed, it could be either Ron or Mike, but I thought everyone would get a kick out of it.
A Psalm Of Steam
The steam locomotive is my treasure, I shall not want diesels.
It maketh me to lie down in green pastures with my camera: it leadeth me beside the still water towers.
It restoreth my soul; it leadeth me along the dirt roads to scrap yards, wretched food and poverty for its preservation's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the terminal of the shadow of diesel, I will fear no police; for my photo-permit is with me; thy side-rods and thy stack-talk they comfort me.
Thou preparest a turntable for me in the presence of the diesel salesman: thou anointest my head with cinders; my tender runneth over.
Surely low, three-quarter sunlight and thick smoke will follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the roundhouse of the LORD forever. Amen.
Personally, instead of an "Amen" I would have ended with a "So THERE!"
Firelock76 ... Amen. Personally, instead of an "Amen" I would have ended with a "So THERE!"
... Amen.
I had not known there to be a difference.
Crandell
Yo Firelock: If you think the B&A locos were ugly with the Coffin feedwater heater hanging out in front, you ought to have seen them after they migrated to the Southern Pacific and had the Coffin unit removed. Now THATS UGLY! ( They were transferred late in World War II to help SP move traffic for the big build-up prior to the projected invasion of Japan ).
[quote user="JimValle"]
Yo Firelock: If you think the B&A locos were ugly with the Coffin feedwater heater hanging out in front, you ought to have seen them after they migrated to the Southern Pacific and had the Coffin unit removed. Now THATS UGLY! ( They were transferred late in World War II to help SP move traffic for the big build-up prior to the projected invasion of Japan
Well Jim, ya know what they say: Beauty is only skin deep, ugly goes to da bone!
5200 (NYC J1) with eight-wheel tender? Never saw one in real life. But there were the ten J2's, 600-609, assigned to the Boston and Albany, but unlike other B&A locomotives, New York Central on the tender sides. With eight-wheel tenders. And one could find New Haven American Flyer coaches behind them in the Inland Route consists between Springfield and Boston. 74" drivers, however. Square sand dome. Lima and not American. Otherwise like a J1.
Here ya go, Dave.
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/nyc/nyc-s5211o.jpg
Given the function of drivers, and the fact that they were stopped using shoe brakes, they would be unlikely to wear in non circular patterns. Unlike the wheels of non rail vehicles, trains do not skid as their weight and break systems create a rolling stop. Break shoes are only capable of causing wear on a wheel when they are metallic in construction, more modern style breaks are of similar nature to the tires found on other forms of surface vehicle. I cannot see how elliptical wear is even possible, even on rubber tired wheels.
First off Dave - Welcome to the forums.
In a perfect world your assertions would be correct. Day in, day out railroading is about as far as you can get from a perfect world - it's more like Murphy's World - If it can fail; it will. If it can't fail; it still will fail - in the location and in the weather conditions that will make it most difficult to resolve the problem.
Brakes on both cars and locomotives can become applied, even when not intended by the engineer. In many cases the engineer will have applied the train brakes to slow down or stop and then released the brakes, it is not uncommon for one car's brake valve to 'not get the message' and not release the brakes on that individual car. When this happens one of two things will occur ... The brake shoes maintain pressure on the wheels, but not enough pressure to keep the wheels from turning - overheating the brake shoe and wheel tread and causing material from the brake shoe to build up on the wheel tread as the car moves - effectively decreasing the flange depth and potentially causing a derailment. The second thing that can occur is for the brake shoe to immobilize the wheel - (the brakes being solidly applied on a single car in a train of any size is not noticeable by the engineer) the train proceeds and flattens the bottom of the wheel (ever watched a train pass and somewhere in the train is a car that just 'pounds' as it passes - that is a car that has flat spots on it wheels [cars with minor flat spots are allowed to continue in service]). Major flat spots can cause derailments of the car involved as well as generate broken rails as the train continues moving if the flat spotted wheel begins turning again (the edge of the flat spot will act as chisel when it pounds the rail).
Locomotive brakes operate a little differently than car brakes. Locomotives have two brake valves. The 'Automatic' and 'Independent'. When the engineer applies the Independent brake, only the brakes on the locomotive consist are applied; this is most frequently used when the locomotives are moving without cars or when the locomotive is being used to switch cars without air. The Independent brake valve also has the ability to release the engine brakes when they get applied by the Automatic brake valve. The Automatic brake valve is what is used to apply and release the train brakes. Normally, the engineer will 'bail off' or release the engine brakes when applying the train brakes in order to prevent flat spotting locomotive wheels from excessive brake pressure. In the steam age, the reason for bailing off the engine brake was to prevent overheating the driver tires which were heated and shrunk fit on the wheel center section - if the tire got too hot it could expand and come off the wheel center section - creating big problems.
I hope I have shed a little light on some of the real world of railroad braking.
davelemmo Given the function of drivers, and the fact that they were stopped using shoe brakes, they would be unlikely to wear in non circular patterns. Unlike the wheels of non rail vehicles, trains do not skid as their weight and break systems create a rolling stop. Break shoes are only capable of causing wear on a wheel when they are metallic in construction, more modern style breaks are of similar nature to the tires found on other forms of surface vehicle. I cannot see how elliptical wear is even possible, even on rubber tired wheels.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Is it really possible to go past SP's 4449 as the classic streamlined steam loco, though from a personal point of view I do like the Pennsy t1, only because our South Australian Railways 520 class 4-8-4 was taken from that design!
Correction to previous postings. The B&A Birksheres had Elasco feedwater heeters or something looking just like them, a cylinder straight across projecting forward of the front of the smokebox. The Boston and Maine had the almost identacle locomotives but with the COFEEN feedwater heaters curved around the top of the smokeboxc, giving them the real John L. Lewis look.
Hi Daveklepper
quote :>> The B&A Birksheres had Elasco feedwater heeters <<
Elasco ?Why , were they elastically lasting ? That's astonopuzzling , I should say at least !
I will agree with the coffein speed water feator any time , though !Feeding boilers with speed water considerbaldwinly prevented limaling up boiler inner secrets - a tweaker which understandably intrigued the Alcohaulics at Schenectady to an extend to finally make them acquire one of these supposedly baldwinning engines in the face of dizzelization . However the Baldheads weren't sleeping at the switch either and shifted the Mohawk people one Old Timer which happened to have lingered at the most forgotten corner of Eddy's Stone yard , a remnant left from one batch once upon a time sailed to Mongolia . Surprisingly however , the Schenecawkians found it would have worked decently well on Starbuck's as well ... well , well , it was just swell ! And who knows : had Starbucks been what it is today - maybe today we wouldn't say "Let's go sit down for some coffee" instead say "Let's go have a train ride to breath some coffee from the locomotive" .And for sure that's something only steam could do , no digi-doggy diesel .Yes , steam has always provided for the small trivial things that tend to make life humourous , besides bare moving loads ...
“You only live twice - or so it seemsone life for yourself and one for your dreams ..”.. as Nancy Sinatra once sang for Bond -James Bond.
.. but that's another story
regards
= J =
Hi NRdriver
quote
>> Is it really possible to go past SP's 4449 as the classic streamlined steam loco <<
Well , the only thing I say is :
I kind of envy you for peace of mind having found your perfect engine .
That's all.
Full stop.
Oh - and : enjoy !
Well HOT ***! SHE"S BACK! And not a minute too soon!
I'll have whatever it is that she's drinking! Burp!
.
BigJim I'll have whatever it is that she's drinking! Burp!
It's coffee, strong enought to float a Pennsy T-1. Trust me.
Firelock76 BigJim: I'll have whatever it is that she's drinking! Burp! It's coffee, strong enought to float a Pennsy T-1. Trust me.
BigJim: I'll have whatever it is that she's drinking! Burp!
My great uncle Bernie said that coffee wasn't good unless you could float a horseshoe in it, so whatever Juniatha is drinking must be some mighty fine coffee (kaffe?).
- Erik
The SP Daylight? Yes. the N&W J and the NYNH&H I-5. Just as good if not better. The latter visually only. Could have been brought up to snuff with wheel rebalancing and boiler fixing, but diesilization came to soon for that to happen.
"Enquiring minds want to know"
I wonder is it because she likes the Pennsy so much she named herself "Joo-nee-at-ha"...as in the Pennsylvania town?
Hi guys
Too much honor : the words 'Alcohaulics' for ALCO engineers / 'Baldheads' for the like at Eddystone / 'Limers' for the folks working with Woodard was - once upon a time - coined by my late father .
Coffee sure is fine at the right time - a cappuccino , an espresso or latte macchiato or one of the numerous Vienna coffee variations , like einspänner or verlängerter - nice to have complete with a glass of table water on a silver plate balancing at the corner of a highly polished board of a green felt billiard table to go with the moments of contemplation in the game ...
My favorite cup ( all too often , sigh !) : hot chocolate - the real stuff that's made of genuine chocolate powder , brown sugar or honey dissolved and compounded in hot milk ; it takes some preparation with very light boiling into a rich creamy melange , boiling for some 15 - 20 minutes ( don't burn at the bottom of the pot !) while always keeping an eye on it and keep stirring it ( never leave milk alone when it seems still far from starting to boil : it will jump-start to do so in your absence and spill everything while you are away for just one short ... ) , sugar is actually preferable since boiling destroys the healthy ingredients in honey anyways and you can blend sugar with chocolate powder right before poring it into milk - which greatly improves dissolving ( and actually melting of the powder particles with the boiling process which only opens up the full chocolate flavor ) - it's tasty with vanilla and maybe a shot of Amaretto ...
Enjoy ...
Big Jim :
Well , if at all , it's more the other way around ... mind the 'th' that's there for a reason instead of just 't' as in the locomotive plant at Altoona that still continues long after Pennsy has gone down that river ...
( by the way , since become my middle name - my first or christian name being Sarene ; so now you know about it )
My God, that last post from Juniatha brought tears to my eyes. If she could build a steam locomotive the way she builds a cup of hot chocolate we'd still be running the things!
Hi Firelock
build a steam locomotive - well I wished I could do that ...
Just another inutile question - what type of w/a would you guys like to see
( blow your mind freely and choose classic or new - whatever you want )
?
Pluses would include the feedwater heater, shielded pumps on the pilot beam and the large coal bunker on the tender. The red running gear is a definite minus.
Gee, I don't know. the red running gear looks good on the Bundesbahn locomotives but just doesn't seem to work on a New York Central Pacific. Not that the Centrals engines couldn't have used a little color, the "basic black" was a little boring. Now, possibly a Russia Iron boiler, some hi-contrast graphiting on the smokebox, the steam dome and sandbox in black, and say a red cab roof with red edging on the cab window frame, and maybe some pinstripe edging on the tender. Then I think you'd have something!
Boy, what a sight! A NYC K-5 in standard DB/DR livery! Can´t say that I really like it. German steamers were a little sleeker than this brute. Can you imagine a Big Boy with the running gear and wheels painted in red and the side rods with a red lining?
Talking about aesthetics, my favorite is the looks of British steamers, elegant, clean-cut and nice paint jobs!
I have to admit a bit of a soft spot for those older Brit locomotives as pictured in Sir Madoqs post. They look like something out of a childrens story book. They couldn't, wouldn't, have gotten the job done here in the US, but I'm sure were more than adequate for anything the British needed them to do.
Now if you start to throw in some Silver & Gold pinstripe and actually make the red a glossy red rather than a flat PRR Tuscan Red you might have something worth looking at. As is it give a new definition to ugly.
[quote user="Juniatha"]
I'm gonna jump out and say it...
I think the best paint job on a steam locomotive is that of my favorite steam locomotive, the Norfolk and Western Class J! The sleek and curved red line that runs down her flanks is truly a perfect match for the sleek simplicity of the Class J.
Just my two cents.
-Justin
The road to to success is always under construction. _____________________________________________________________________________ When the going gets tough, the tough use duct tape.
Hi Justin & all:
Quote: >> I think the best paint job on a steam locomotive is that of my favorite steam locomotive, << I think that's typical of the prevailing attitude that might be summed up as : „Best is what I saw in my old days and anything else will be judged by measuring as to how near it comes to that or fails to do so : Good Bad if it's a fairly close copy, if it's something else.
Quote:
>> I think the best paint job on a steam locomotive is that of my favorite steam locomotive, <<
I think that's typical of the prevailing attitude that might be summed up as :
„Best is what I saw in my old days and anything else will be judged by measuring as to how near it comes to that or fails to do so :
Good
Bad
Or in other words : Good is the way I make a steak – bad is the way you make a steak , full stop .
This sort of attitude is ok and it absolutely remains everyone's personal right to take this sort of a personal look at topics like classic cars, classic locomotives , art , furniture , dining or whatever .
However , it is no ways sufficient to provide a basis for a discussion on aesthetics , simply because the criteria of such classification as 'complies with the way I'm used to / doesn't comply with the way I'm used to' are not regarding any qualities of aesthetics in any way as concerns sculpturing , setting of applications and choice of color or arrangement of variations of colors neither each their expression , meanings and their combinations - such as harmonizing , fitting or contrasting or disturbing , opposed or in line etc .
My color variation of the K-5b was not meant as an attempt to copy anything that had been there on US RRs and thus cannot be judged by checking through the files to see if it would fit some former US RR scheme and condemn if it doesn't .
If stating plain black was best and any two tone is questionable because it's not plain black , logically this means saying the colorful diesel schemes were all horrible (except maybe former NYC's two tone gray which might then be considered as far out as can be in RR paint jobs) and the two-tone and three-tone color schemes on cars that sold like mad when they appeared in the late Fifties / early Sixties were also horrible aberrations and consequently what to think of all those RRs / people that applied / bought them ?
I’m quite fond of black as a color for various applications – however in due respect to its meaning and inherent properties in fields ranging from its position within color tones to the finer symbolic meanings and esoteric powers . However black , just because it’s a powerful color (in this context I consider it an active color , not a passive ‚no light‘ phenomenon) has to be applied with care and measure or it will become just a dull cover-up .
More could be said about colors yet this would lead to a lengthy posting .
What I would like to add :
It’s sure simple to shoot at a propositions posted while keeping covered about one’s own preferences , let alone make a proposal by oneself .
This is a forum , folks , as I understand it lives from exchange of ideas – not from just down thumbing of one sole proposal .
So , if you criticize get moving and come up with a better proposal by yourself if you dare to or at least come up with some better reasons for your critics .
By the way , make no bones about it – red color on chassis , wheels and rods also was considered a safety factor since it allowed better vision and checking of parts for possible cracks or failures when climbing into a loco’s frames for inspection …
Give it a second thought, guys …
Edit : this was posted in a hurry , tying errors and some words edited
OK, as a safety feature as you describe the red on the running gear and chassis DOES make sense. It's just a bit of a shock seeing it on an American engine. American roads stopped painting running gear red in the 1880's, but that was strictly an economy move. Matter of fact, it was the New York Central that started the "basic black" movement and the other roads jumped on board pretty quickly.
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