Locomotive aesthetics

[Paul of Covington]

LaurenFan

I love those "plumbers nightmares". I think they are beautiful. They sort of have a balance between an aggressive look and a beauty.

    For a long time I have thought of them as "Beautiful Brutes."

[Juniatha]

Before anything else

let me say my sincerest feelings are with those struck by hard fate in the wake

of hurricane ‘Irene’ having passed up the East Coast !

_________________

 

As you may already have noted , on Sunday August 28 ^th there was an incident with 241.P.17 – ‘La Grosse P’ or SNCF standard 4-8-2 operated by a club that restored this locomotive to working order at its original builder’s plant Cie Schneider at LeCreusot between 2000 – 2007 .   It appears the locomotive was going light engine through a loop for turning when a steam blow out occurred , apparently at some auxiliary unit . 

Some links to info sites and translation below:

 

General information on the 241.P four cylinder compound Mountain type of locomotive :

http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/materiel/locs/241p30_d.html

241.P information on loco , principal data and simple side elevation drawing, scroll down for some info on 241.P.17 restored at LeCreusot from 2000 to 2007 and .30 placed as monument at Vallorbe and since retrieved and transported to St Sulpice, Switzerland

 

From the photo gallery, some pictures in chronological order :

http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241p_1963_paris-est_guy-laforgerie.jpg

241.P in Paris-Est station in 1963 , ready to depart with train #9 Alpenrose Express  

http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/materiel/locs/241p_241c.html

http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/materiel/locs/241p_construction.html

Construction of the 241.P.1 - .35  ( uh , I just see , there is an elevated view at construction site with 241.P chassis and boiler , showing in fact a steam turret on top of the boiler near the back end – the thing that could have caused the trouble , see my text below )

http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241p_lille-posteb_yves-broncard.jpg

Leaving Lille with cylinder cocks open , train 324 to Paris

http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241p3_faucille-de-villeneuve_vdr-felix-fenino.jpg

241.P.3 passing ‘the crescent of Villeneuve’ going to Paris with the Rome Express night train

http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241p_moret_tournage_paris-lyon_guy-rannou.jpg

three 241.P are turned on the triangle at Moret ( turn table too short at this last stand of these engines before end of steam )

http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241p30_thouare-sur-loire_reg-nantaise_walter-hofer.jpg

The 241.P didn’t escape usual degrading of steam passenger power to freight service during Late Hour steam traction :  241.P.30 then of LeMans shed heading a fast freight towards Angers , passing through Thouaré-sur-loire ( Nantes region )

http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241p21_1969-07_cannibalisee_pieces_jean-louis-poggi.jpg

241.P at Chaumond steam shed used for taking spare parts in the final hour of steam – btw , since we are at it : although parly hidden with remnants of insulation material , this picture shows steam passages of straight conduct and generous size between steam chest and cylinder typical of these and other later type compound engines – you may compare this to cylinders of comparable size on our large locomotive types and you get an idea of one reason why in general specific steam consumption was significantly higher in our engines

http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241p9_1974-09-17_bordeaux_jean-louis-poggi.jpg

last time in steam years after steam had ended on SNCF :  241-P-9, on september 17 , 1974 , at Bordeaux engine facility , starting last last journey to Guîtres

 

= I have deleted the rest since I have re-posted it

in the thread dealing especially with the August 28th incident .=

Regards

      Juniatha

[samfp1943]

Thank You, Juniatha!

     I really appreciate your putting together the series of links.  The original link from the Trains Newswire was pretty interesting, but left a lot of questions (unanswered) in my mind. I could not understand why there were so many extra personnel in the cab for the move that was being made at the time of the failure.

   Upon some additional reading, it was mentioned that the 'Club' that restored the 241P17 was rather a large, and very dedicated group, and whenever the locomotive was stopped for a service, it was checked several times, and then rechecked.

Apparently, for all involved, it was a real labor of love(?). Which helps to explain the level of enthusiasm as well as a willingness to  reward those who labored on the Locomotive .

  The fact that so many were injured is a real shame,  one certainly feels a level of sorrow for the injuries,  hope that they will all recover to return to their avocation of the 241P17.

[feltonhill]

Juniatha and others,

  There's an existing thread re: the 241P17 incident on this site. 

I speculated earlier today that there a couple of words that were either skipped in mechanical translations or that had alternative translations other than the first or second or......meaning.  Some of the discussions on UK and French forums intimated that there may have been  problems in several areas.  I thought that they may have been referring to a failed boiler tube, a leak in a pipe in the cab or the turret,  or perhaps a sight glass.   Based on construction photos I have, the turret is located on top of the boiler, inside the cab, and behind the pointed roof contour.  It is not isolated from the cab interior. 

I'm interested in knowing what happened to this exceptional locomotive, so the more information the better.

But see the other thread just below this one.  "J", you may want to copy your analysis over to the other thread, may as well keep all the information in the same place.

[Juniatha]

@ feltonhill

Thank you for notifying - I've copied it there .

Regards

            = J=

[LaurenFan]

I am sorry for the confusion because of my username and avatar. I am a man. I am LaurenFan meaning I am a fan of Lauren. My avatar is of Lauren Lee Smith. She is my favorite actress. I know it's a bit off topic.

[Juniatha]

Hi all

 

Coming back on topics aesthetics , so far we have found the amount of plumbing , piping and arrangement of auxiliaries and general proportions depended very much on –

*          the ideas of design by builders and more so by railroads – i e how they evaluated external clean lines against easy accessibility ;

*          the amount and type of auxiliaries used – i e for instance if boiler feed was by injectors only or by injectors and feed pumps and if so , then which type of preheater was being used ;

*          engine mass permitted over wheel base – in other words what engine mass was allowed per wheel set ;  this largely decided configuration of design of a steam locomotive type , boiler size and diameter of boiler barrel , dimensioning of rods and type of wheels (spoked or boxpok) and thus the degree of generally lean or massive looks ;

*          last not least overall size of locomotive , in other words choice of wheel arrangement .

Let’s have a glimpse into this latter point .   Personally , I feel aesthetic aspects were being advanced with a certain development of size , length actually , as engines had tolerably reached loading gauge limits and began to fill available cross section more and more .   In that way , as for a principal example , a Decapod or Mike looked more balanced and completed than a Consol from which the former two had been developed .   Interestingly, the like will not generally be held true in comparing a Mountain or Hudson with a Pacific .  

Principally , I feel a steam locomotive does not look ‘complete’ without a decent balance between powered and carrying wheel sets , in accordance with intended technical characteristics – this may be somewhat harsh towards shunting engines that by default had an 0-X-0 type of w/a , but then again who would compare a ‘yard iron’ with a main line engine ? 

That said , it seemed to help aesthetics if unbalanced accumulation of each the two principal types of wheel sets at one end or the other were avoided as much as odd arrangements of the two – for instance an 0-6-4 tank engine or an 0-10-2 tender engine would hardly have been considered of balanced good looks and in fact I wonder if sparing that decent little pony truck had been worth the consequential service limitations and rough vehicle guidance characteristics , increased flange wear and related .   However , I think 4-X-0 type of w/a were also lacking some ‘completeness’ :  extended front end and frugal rear end just didn’t match too well .   That’s why for instance a Pennsy G-5 was never more than an E-6’ small sister .   Still , within their surroundings of railway and locomotive scenery , some later British large drivered 4-6-0 acquired a respectably look of their own . 

However , I as for one , can never get used to those shortish rigid frame three axle tender rigs that were so universally popular in Britain ;  I wished with their 1950s standard designs incorporating as they did some ‘Continental’ technical features , BR would have ‘braced round’ to a regular double bogie tender type at least for Pacific and Decapod if not for the BR 5 intermediate between Stanier Black Five and Royal Scott .  

With engine types having more than one drive set – such as the Duplex , Mallet (SE or compound) , let alone such special arrangements as the Garratt and derivatives – things became more complex , still there were w/a that would provide a more advantageous basis for designing locomotive types with pleasing , harmonious proportions and lines than other w/a .   For example , I feel w/a allowing to use identical drive sets were principally favoring harmonious design ( not only concerning looks but also technical qualities ) .   Another point was arrangement of firebox which – due to desired size – often ‘slopped over’ rear coupled wheel sets , which caused both compromised inner height as much as rather squattish looks externally .   Mallets , in which the firebox was snugly accommodated behind drive sets , such as for example in Roanoke’s A class 2-6-6-4 or Lima’s H-8 2-6-6-6 , definitely looked more balanced with a better general arrangement of components .

Without claiming general validity , some of my favorite classic wheel arrangement are :

Passenger :       Pacific – Hudson – Mountain – Northern

Freight :            Decapod – Mikado – Santa Fé – Texas – Union Pacific

The list could be extended for sure .. In the UP 9000 class , clearly it’s the impressive line of six coupled axles – as for the 4-12-2 w/a that’s what was the state of the art at that time .   Ideally though , I would have preferred a 2-12-4 w/a for two reasons :  (a) obviously , firebox arrangement behind coupled wheel sets as I have mentioned before , (b) arrangement of three cylinder drive with middle cylinder driving on third coupled axle and outside cylinders on fourth ( for now let’s skip lengthy reasoning which lead me to arrive at this conclusion , I guess it wouldn’t be of general interest anyways since it leads into dynamic behavior of drive and running gear mechanics and vehicle guidance characteristics ) . However , in historical succession , a 2-12-4 w/a would have implied 2-8-4 and 2-10-4 and if a twelve coupled design would have later been considered as a culmination of what had started with Woodard’s Berkshire type , it would by then likely have been as a 300 – 310 psi two cylinder type , with cylinders again driving on third coupled axle , i e a direct extension of the Texas type .   In fact , I think a 2-12-6 has been ventilated by Lima to answer Chessie’s requests , it was dropped , however , because of excessive piston thrust – a three cylinder type by then having been off consideration , which I think was a major mistake , although perhaps an understandable one in consequence of experience with the earlier three cylinder engines that fatefully had their development truncated before it had even reached a basic degree of completion .

 

Regards

Juniatha                              

                              

 

[JimValle]

Hi Juniatha:  One aspect of locomotive aesthetics that is peculiar to the USA is that many railroads adopted certain conventions to give their steam engines a "family" look.  For Southern Pacific that included Venderbuilt tenders, number boards on the smokebox, headlights mounted below center and the state mandated silver smokebox fronts.  Santa Fe was very traditional with bulky boilers, big square tanks on the later engines, severe all black decour with silver lettering and a grey smokebox front.  Delaware ahd Hudson tried for an "English" look with, in my opinion, disasterous results which were compounded by the Loree Consolidations.  The Southern avoided superpower concepts and promotied a very pure USRA look with "southern green" livery for the passenger power.  I could go on and on but you get my drift.  It's an interesting pastime to try and identify unpained brass models by matching their build, proportions and fittings to the intended prototype railroad, something not so challenging with the nationalized European systems, or is it?    

[Juniatha]

     

Hi Jim

 

Well , sure , I would agree – some railroads cared more for company looks than others .   Besides , in the USA there often was a degree of builder look shining through – at least for the later locomotive classes I believe I could tell an ALCO from a Baldwin and a Lima as one can tell a Ford from a GM and a Chrysler .  ( Point is , we just *know* the loco classes as we mostly know the Ford GM and Chrysler lines of cars – so we don’t really have to guess *g* )   

This was not always so in Europe .   In Britain the LMS , LNER , SR and GWR each kept their distinct corporate identities but it got all standardized with BR .   Same in France where the Nord , Etat , P O Midi , PLM and Est became amalgamated into SNCF with a notable difference – as concerns steam locomotives the lines were near continuations of former PLM 2-8-2 and 4-8-2 while the 150.P Decapod was derived from the Nord 5.1200 series .   Again , in Germany each the state railways of Prussia , Bavaria and other had developed distinct lines of locomotives , so differing were traffic demands and technical approaches that even wheel arrangements varied :  while KPEV built four cylinder compound 4-6-0 for express service , the Bavarians went to S 3/6 Pacifics for their more hilly lines .   This came to an end with formation of national railways DRG in 1920 . 

Contrasting with 1938 French proceeding , 1925 DRG locomotive standardization was so strict , it left no space for builder typical details – no wonder if you come to think they had production lots of major engine classes built by more than one manufacturer and the all locomotives of each a class had to be interchangeable in all parts .  

On the other hand something relating to your guessing the railroad with a brass model was present in variations of main locomotive classes who’s members were found scattered across the continent in post WW-II times to run on various railways in different countries .   For instance the Prussian P8 ( 38 class )  ten-wheelers got around quite a bit , running not just on both West German DB and East-German DR – each developing differences in due time for sure – but also on SNCB / Belgium , SNCF / France , PKP / Poland , ČSD / Czechoslovakia , ÖBB / Austria , MAV / Hungaria , CFR / Roumania , BDŽ / Bulgaria , JŽ / Yugoslavia – even TCDD / Turkey ran a number of P8 for a long time , some three engines got on the ‘Ferrovie Stradivari’ FS / Italy and some were found at ‘Classic Epoque Hellas’ CEH / Greece – each railway freely applying or taking off and changing around appurtenances in order to ‘improve-worsen’ the engines according to their preferred habits .   It bespoke their staunch condition if P8 engines kept running bravely in spite of some rather peculiar adaptations and widest possible variations of coal qualities .   The same could be said to an even wider range – geographically as well as variation-wise of the 50 and 52 class Decapods that besides on mentioned railways also worked in Denmark , Netherlands , Norway , Russia and I’m sure that wasn't the end of it .

Only FS couldn’t make much of a couple of 52 engines that happened to be stranded on their territory in 1945 , see note [1] – although some Italian vaporisti ( steam loco crews ) commented favorably on their looks and proportions , nicknaming them ‘Marlene’ , they were considered ‘too powerful’ ( in relation to quaint , small Italian steam they must have appeared like Valkyries – *g* ) and eventually most got handed back to German and Austrian railways .   At least one by that time unidentified 52 in some most obscure ways also made it north to the Austrian railways where in a hush-hush operation she got re-numbered 52 8000 at Villach on May 1st 1945 and eventually received a heavy overhaul at Knittelfeld main shop ;  when some Yugoslavian SDŽ railway officials asked to look for a lost 52 engine ( SDŽ renumbered 33 010 ) the Austrians *really* couldn't help them ( 8000 was a notional number to avoid possible duplicating  ;  actual engine no’s had only reached into the high 7700s – I'll look it up later [2] ).  

The 52 austerity Decapods were of remarkably unwavering sturdiness and in a strange ironic turn of fate proved of considerable longevity – a complete denial of original intentions – in the post-war period serving many European railways for two or three , even four decades , some even today continue very lively running with steam preservation groups .   During post war times the class saw members diversified into a vast array of variations and survived some far reaching mutations and mutilations in some next to end of the world regions .   While in the 1960 DR included 200 of their 52s in their Reko program of re-boilering and up-grading ( 52.80 class ) and rebuilt further 52 engines to Wendler pulverized coal firing , the same class was withdrawn early on DB – only to find quite a number of 50 class engines later began to acquire more and more aspects of 52 engines , in some cases to a point where distinction between the two classes diffused as it had been in the beginning when the final austerity variations of 50 class engines had looked half-ways like 52s on the builder’s yard while some 52s were finished using parts produced for 50 class . By the 1968 DB scheme former 50.20 series appeared as a ‘new’ alleged ‘052’ series .

In a much lesser degrees , the 44 class Decapod and then a number of other engine classes had come around on various railways and states , submitted to typical adaptations .  

So , with a blank brass model of a 44 you would have a choice of possibilities – it gets tougher with an odd version of a P8 and with a strange variation of a 52 it means making the grade to tell on which railway(s) the locomotive had been before she ended up on which railway – and maybe you could even tell the builder of this one 52 , because at their time of production , strict DR standardization had become tolerably fringed and a 52 built by Borsig or Henschel , Chrzanow or Floridsdorf , Skoda or Graffenstaden , Tubize or other might be told apart – with detail knowledge and then some luck .

Regards

            Juniatha

 

* Note :  

[1]        As of Januar 1945 , WVD Italy still had 27 locos listed ;  as by an official note of March 17' 1945 of locos that could not be retrieved were stored at Verona 52 1561 , 5798 , 7025 , 7591 , at Conegliano 52 2422 , 3810 , 6847 , at Gemona 52 7378 , 7579 and in Udine 52 1376 ;  in Triest 52 1671 and 3281 got destroyed by bombing , Februar ;  52 7735 , built Floridsdorf , Vienna , April 1944 , was only handed over to FS by ÖStB in June 1945 (!) , she eventually came to DR , finally was rebuilt to become Reko 52 8173 and was still in service in the 1980s ;

[2]        According to Griebl / Wenzel , loco numbers finished with 52 7792 , built MBA , Berlin #14376 in Nov 1944 , delivered to department Stettin , came to DB , was withdrawn from register April 18' 1956 ;  one 52 7793 appeared on April 1' 1953 when DR for some reason renumbered 52 1505 ( maybe at that time the number was not identified ) ;  the loco acquired a third number when rebuilt into Reko 52 8133 ;  finally , in 1962 the Russian railways found they might want to give away a bunch of 52s and a number of Easter block railways found themselves ‘blessed’ with run down engines , among a lot of ‘russified’ 52s that found their way back to DR was ТЭ-8013 and probably for unknown original number was assigned 52 7794 and Stendal work shop #300 . That , finally , was the highest ‘regular’ 52 class engine number – or so it seems …

 

 

[JimValle]

Well Juniatha, you seem to have given this question considerable thought.  Identifying all the variations that resulted from the widely travelled P 38's and Class 52's is a good review of geography as well as concepts of locomotive modifications and variants.  I hate to even think about what condition those Russian 52's were in after decades of Soviet style maintenance!  Anyhow, now that you've put me on to some of these variations I'll take another look at my copy of Ziel and Huxtable's "Steam Beneath the Red Star" and see if I can spot them.  As I may have mentioned previously this Spring I visited the Austrian Railroad Museum just outside Vienna and they had a class 52 that they steamed on weekends and a Class 42 that was stored outside aparently awaiting restoration.  They seemed to me to be rather pure examples of the Kreigslok look.  There were also three "mystery" steam engines that I spotted sitting on a siding at one of the suburban stations right in Vienna itself.  They looked similar to Prussian Class 58 2-10-0's.  They were long out of service but didn't look too deteriorated in the brief glance that I got of them.  Perhaps you know something about them?  One final bit of trivia:  The Russians "captured" approximately 1,500 German Kreigsloks of class 52 out of 6,500 built between 1942 and 1945. according to Zeil and Huxtable. And you are right, they proved to be extremely robust and durable.

[GP39]

Very informative

As I am familiar with Pennsylvania Decapods.

Can you post a picture of your version?

[Stourbridge Lion]

feltonhill

D&H had 4-6-4s??  Unusual 4-6-2s and 4-8-4s maybe, but not 4-6-4s.    Sure about that?

Here is the D&H Steam Roster as I know it and no 4-6-4 engines...

http://www.trainweb.org/dhvm/dhrr_steam.htm

[Juniatha]

Hi Jim

 

Off Hands - not having been there - I would say there's a chance these were deteriorated 52s .   From what I heard , the Austrian Rys had been asked by ministries to keep a number of 52s in 'preserved' condition as a reserve power .   The preservation was mainly left to the sun and rain having since done quite a job at re-naturalizing the engines back to iron ore .  When I was on the Vienna 150 years celebration we had also seen a couple of 52s in extremely corroded condition shelved half hidden on bush over-grown yard tracks - and that was ages ago !   They still basically looked like 52s but as far as I remember they were beyond recovery .   I don't think there were any G12 (58 class) left then - that said, I don't know if maybe the Austrian steam preservation club has since bought one / some from Rumania or former Yugoslavia where they had been run about until the last wheel fell off .  

Regards

Juniatha

[JimValle]

Hi Juniatha:  Thanks once again for your reply.  I got one quick snapshot of these engines through the window of the suburban train.  One of the three is a tank locomotive numbered 77 250.  The other two could be Class 52 but the square tenders and large diameter boilers seem to mitigate against it.  I can't see the wheel arrangement very well but one engine has a trailing truck under the firebox.  Perhaps a 2-8-2?  The other one looks like a 2-10-0. One thing is perhaps unusual.  All the engines have their handrails and grab irons painted red.  Externally all three engines appear to be intact.  They are faded but showing little rust.  The station they are located at might be called Iskal, if that makes any sense.  Anyhow that's what I can glean from my one hurried photograph!  

[LaurenFan]

Wow! Tis very pretty! http://www.voisin.ch/vvt/photos/locs/241-p-17_2007-09-16_montceau-les-mines_georges_ravay.jpg

I do think it would look a lot better without smoke deflectors.

[Juniatha]

Hi –

 

Quote:

a    >> Wow! Tis very pretty! <<    ( i e with smoke deflectors ;  comment =J= )

b   >> I do think it would look a lot better without smoke deflectors. <<

Oops ? sorry , which way now - (a) or (b) ?

 

In case (b) maybe you would prefer the primeval type of PLM Mountains , the 241.A ‚Cigarre’ :  no smoke deflectors here – although it came with outside drive to first coupled axle ( big volume lp cylinders – shortish ‚mean’ rod ) and detour-type of steam passages and restricted exhaust .   See :

http://www.trains-worldexpresses.com/600/605b.htm

By the way , as the column of smoke tells , the train was standing ready for departure – these engines didn’t ever live up to ‘thundering’ dynamics by any means , they were rather doing what may be called gentle breezing at mile a minute paces on the level .

 

For me the EST Mountain was ‘the’ 241.A – see :

http://www.trains-worldexpresses.com/200/207-02m.JPG

I saw one in Mulhouse in the rail museum and was impressed , especially with the compact hp outside de Glehn type four cylinder compound arrangement .. but that’s another story , one of a great steam locomotive that time has passed , leaving only thoughts of railroading as it was .. it's all left behind as time goes on :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hO6dcLRXrX4&feature=related

( Avec le temps – Dalida )

 

‘A’ and ‘A’ – where’s the difference in classification ?  Well , when SNCF generalized the former PLM system they introduced a distinction by regions – i e former railway networks , approximately , these were marked as a framed figure next to the class-plus-number on the front and rear bumper plate and on cab sides .  

Like Americans generally know by topic if speaking of a T-1 (T1) means a Reading 4-8-4 , Chessy 2-10-4 or Pennsy 4-4-4-4 ,  it was generally known if 241.A meant the EST type ( as in most cases ) or the PLM type .   Again , as some American RRs used a hyphen in classifications while others didn’t and some users have since come to use or loose hyphens as they choose , or independent minds like me decided to always use a hyphen indiscriminatingly , there were varying interpretations as to write 241A / 241.A / 241 A or 241-A .   While reportedly , some hard headed individuals have settled disputes about which way is the right way by meeting for a duel at dawn , it might be considered more socially agreeable to simply take a look at the bumper plate numbers or the cab number plates as can be seen on historic photographs :  they usually show a point between w/a figures and capital letter and figure of loco number again, such as 241.A.65 .   So , I chose to use points invariably with this French classification system – point !

 

Regards

 

           Juniatha

 

[locoi1sa]

Which one look better to you?

http://www.shorpy.com/node/324

Now that there is some type of comparison. How about this one?

http://www.shorpy.com/node/323

 American locos were just a utilitarian tool to be used. They were not meant too much for looks unless the public demanded it by ridership.

   Pete

 I can not believe this thread has dragged out to 14 pages!

[Firelock76]

My God, that B&A locomotive with the Coffin feedwater heater has got to be one of the ugliest things I've ever seen, and that's saying something brother, 'cause I've never seen a steam locomotive I didn't like.  You've got to work some serious overtime to build a steamer I'd personally trade for a diesel with no questions asked!  It makes the Illinois Centrals  "Green Diamond" look good!

[Juniatha]

Hi Firelock

Regards

= J =

[switch7frg]

Firelock76  I agree with you on the hooded monster.

                                                                                 Jim

[Juniatha]

Hi Jim

Just the name said it all :  the Coffin preheater .

A device that pre-warmed the coffin

( for whom , steam ? )

Regards

= J =

[daveklepper]

It is not B&A, it is B&M, Boston and Maine.   And except for the feedwater heater, it was in fact very similar to the B&A's Berkshires.   I saw both types in action when riding the Day Express and other trains to and from Camp Wah-Kee-Nah in summer 1944 and 1945.

 

The B&A's were good looking locomotives in my opinion.   The feedwater heater did make a difference.

[selector]

Does anyone remember with any nostalgic fondness the novelty ball caps sold decades ago that had the plastic dog excrement on the visor?  No?  No, you don't remember, or no you don't particularly want to remember? 

As much as I am a huge fan of steam, that Coffin application is butt ugly to me.  With boils.  It reminds me of how I felt the first time I saw those ball caps...disbelief comes to mind.

I love the H-8 with the L-2.   There's just no denying that the Allegheny was a monstrous brute that could fly if it needed to.  Can you imagine the long troop trains they would have pulled at times?  I'd love to see a photo of such a consist coming around a nice long curve.

Crandell

[samfp1943]

From a preceding response on this thread (the link to a photo of B&M #4000) showing the application of a Coffin Water Heater.

      Back in the late 1950's the Frisco RR donated to the City of Memphis a Springfield rebuilt 2-8-0 ) It was when donated a 2-8-2 Mikado and was placed in the Public area of the Fairgrounds at Memphis (later a Frisco Caboose was added to the display). 

Found this photo of the Frisco #1351 on the web (and it is a Mike Condren Photo)

Unfortunately, it was dated from 2005 photo's owner's website @

http://condrenrails.com/Recent-Trains/Recent-Trains-5.htm

condition of engine shows to be rough, but one can see the hidden application of the Coffin Water Heater at the front area of the Smoke Box. 

Maybe some other Poster can provide som updated info?

 

[PNWRMNM]

Sam,

I know for a fact that the locomotive and caboose were at Collierville as of two months ago. 

To call what is there a museum is a stretch.  About four passenger cars were incorporated into a restaurant, but it shut down 18-24 months ago.  Fortunately that use did not damage the cars, which are for sale.

Mac McCulloch

[Juniatha]

Pardon me , maybe I'll sound conservative :

 does anyone propose this really concerns topic steam aesthetics ?

I have a strong suspicion this is about preservation - full stop .

Maybe we should put up a thread

"Who knows about present status of Frisco #1351 ?"

and summon these posts there ? 

=   J =

[Firelock76]

Oh, I LIKE the way this thread's taken on a life of it's own and just keeps gathering momentum like a rolling snowball.  Keep the ball rolling folks,  sometimes it's fun creating a monster!   Come on, there's a little Doc Frankenstein in all of us, ain't there?  The wife likes to channel her  "Inner Godzilla"  from time to time.  Happy belated Halloween, everyone!   I'll bet that Coffin equipped B&M  hog was the best scare any of us had this week!

[locoi1sa]

Crandell.

 Since I live on Cape Cod the doo doo on the ball cap is Seagull with a little cursive saying. I also had a Tee shirt with the same theme.

  My mom always said there was no ugly baby to the mom that bore it. I guess that goes for locos too. While I would love to see a giant CC1 pushing cuts of cars over the hump I still will not leave out the lowly B6sb switching cars on the ready track or the brace of H8sa locos pulling and pushing tonnage on the curve.

  Keep your streamlined high stepping passenger hauler. They moved people. Give me the power that moved the world.

CC1

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr3397.jpg

B6sb

http://www.northeast.railfan.net/images/prr96s.jpg

H8sa

http://abpr.railfan.net/abprphoto.cgi?march06/03-27-06/PRR9401PitcairnPA_Aug49.jpg

   Pete

[Juniatha]

Hi folks

 

Ok , since Firelock is amused - let's reel on (*g*) ...

The scariest Halloween extra - ya but .. what did they do with it the rest of the year ?

Well , I think as for grade crossings , a steam loco that not just warned by physical strength and loud beats and whistle blowing but had a coffin ready up front , this must have been the ultimate warning for even the more modestly minded motorist .

 

One principal remark about aesthetics , though :

Aspects of aesthetics do not depend on or are defined by gadgets such as streamlining ( and or coloring ) that rather have to be filed under 'glamour' .   Then again , streamlining of steam locos , according to aesthetic value of it's achievement , could – didn’t have to – improve appearance of an engine in that it gave expression and harmony to it’s shape , lines and proportions .   The opposite could – and did – happen , especially when industrial designers executed this job the way they used to execute any work for a customer in a ‘gun for hire’ manner .  

However there was a difference between throwing a fashionable streamlining body shape over a given automobile chassis ( and not just a few of these proved a sore sight pretty soon after the fashion craze had moved on , except in the eyes of some specialized vintage car lover ) rounding the corners of a house to make it look futuristic , streamlining a refrigerator and applying a couple of snappy chrome bands ( a kind of ‘styling’ which really never had any connection with a frige’s function and thus was meaningless from the beginning ) and – finally – sculpturing some sheet metal for a steam locomotive .  

Fundamental difference between contouring a steam locomotive and an automobile was – besides differing sizes immediately apparent :  basically you could cover an automobile chassis with about any shape and styling of a body and thus make it the type of car you want it to be , while with steam locomotives the machinery already was the body itself .

That implies any kind of sheet metal couture needed to be made to harmonize , hopefully compliment the inherent lines and expression of a steam locomotive – some historical realizations however simply ignored technical and optical engine qualities, some tried to hide features or even reverse or deny expression of attributes .   The results of all these  creative ‘efforts’ or rather lack thereof were , in my view , less than happy , pleasing or harmonious – you may pick your own choices .

Aesthetics thus are not defined by or limited to engines with high drive wheel diameters , on the contrary :  there are examples of harmonious designs and unhappy ones among express engines , freight engines and dual purpose engines .   That said , a person may well feel more attracted by one or the other for individual reasons – there is personal adherence , maybe emotion , maybe memory , often a mixture of various motives involved and may very well be so .

As an opposite example of a Berkshire of much better technical proportions and at the same time more harmonious looks than the ‘coffin-engine’ I dare to mention the L&N M-1 class .

What examples do you propose ?

 

Regards

       Juniatha

 

[M636C]

Didn't the locomotive that was arguably the best looking locomotive in the United States, New York Central J-1e 5344, have a Coffin feed water heater? 

Before Kantona and subsequently Dreyfuss got to it, it was one of the best looking locomotives anywhere, and the piping to the feedwater heater didn't upset the appearance noticeably.

As the owner of a reproduction Lionel 700E, which sits in its glass case in front of me as I type, surely the only problem with the Coffin heater was that some operators didn't go to the trouble of fitting them correctly.

M636C