To Paul of Covington: OOOOOOOOKAY, I'm a BIG fan of 19th Century steam but I've got to admit Mr. Norris went a bit overboard on this one! That's ASSUMING the 19th Century printmaker got the colors right, many times they didn't, so you can't trust them 100% of the time. At least I HOPE they got this one wrong! If they didn't, then I suppose LSD's been around longer than we think!
How is this for color? It was built by Richard Norris and Son about 1855 for the Cincinnati and Chicago Air Line Railroad. From the book, EARLY AMERICAN LOCOMOTIVES by John H. White, Jr., published by Dover Publications, Inc., 1972.
I'm going to try posting the picture, but I'm computer-dumb, so if it doesn't work, I'll come back with the flickr link.
(Edit) OK, I got it wrong. Here is the link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulofcov/6919905642/in/photostream
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
I mistakenly omitted the "a" in M1a, which arrived in 1930, the year following the K5. My intent was to answer your question about the PRR's red roof inn. So no, no conflicting intentions, just an idea to solve identity crisis from above. Sorry.
Hi
So , the K5 - Capo di valvoli Caprotti or distribuzione Walschewski - was considered an 'old' type of locomotive right from roll out at Altoona ?
Gee , guess there were some pretty conflicting intentions going on in management ranks inside the Pennsy .
Those who wanted electrics ordered all new steam to be marked 'out-dated' by 'little red riding hood' cab caps - while the others banned overhead wiring to the East corridor and ordered Duplexii until Symes drowned it all with Diesel units of all kinds including the uncanny .
Regards
Juniatha
A shop practice tried on the PRR was to paint tender decks a red oxide color, older locomotives received a red oxide cab roof and modern locomotives after the M1 received brunswick cab roofs.
Hi Jim
Well , yes and no : basically it's the old Brunswick & Black theme the PRR continued via GG1 up ( or down ) to the T1 class - we had covered that point some pages before when I posted a variety of T1 color schemes and again green won 'brush down' .
What on rails the Pennsy meant with a red roof and tender deck I have no clue - after all the cab roof was not exactly designed for a ride on the wild side . Smokebox and firebox sides off-set in graphite again was fully traditional , as my dad had told me , it stemmed from times when paint was oil- based and not suited for high surface temperatures .
In Europe , railways featuring green upper areas on steam locos were also clinging to off-set smokebox color , black in that instance , graphite or aluminum powder paint was hardly ever used , 'Russian sheet metal' that by special treatment gave a shiny , slightly blue effect probably was used for boiler cladding only in a couple of cases in Austria - it pretty soon was abandoned or painted over black since it was prone to rusting and then arguably looked less than showy ( using a material prone to rusting for steam locomotives was perhaps an idea not thoroughly conceived if you come to think of steam condensation in combination with acid combustion gas emission from the stack )
All in all , with coming of the universal black , in the end proverbial or sine qua non of steam , locomotives got one uniform color from front to back , no off-sets for any boiler parts or cab to separate from the rest .
This is why off-color smokeboxes always look a bit like painted faces to me , it makes the locomotive look as if the boiler ends behind cylinders , a tolerably strange proposition , with a lighter something put up in front of it . Ok , actually it's true : the boiler properly , i e the pressurized part , really does end behind cylinders , yet the smokebox is an integral functional part of it and so why should it be separated by off-set color ? Spare me commenting on bare lower firebox sides , technically a source of heat loss and extra maintenance costs due to increased heat tension .
Hi Ulrich
Thanks for posting the photos ! The high-wheeled 18 201 - or '02 0201' was finished in green / red as far as I know since she was part of Baumberg's 'Zoo'. For other readers : Baumberg was head of DR's Halle VESM , locomotive testing and research center , since Grunewald facilities lay derelict in West-Berlin after WW-II ; Max Baumberg had a hang-up for green locos - or that's as far-out as DR would have tolerated his not always fully 'official' ways - the assembly of odd one-off locos under his ruling at the VESM were called 'the Zoo' because of their green colors .
Red on red was a no-no in my view , especially since it seemed the upper red was slightly ( outch !). different from the regular chassis red .
I like the blue S3/6 - better than the green one .
A word or two on colors for steel structures as I conceive it :
BLUE
Dark shades well convey the character of steel , also evoke marine associations , royal color , conveying strength and solidity , rational , technical ; lighter shades less stern , still on the rational and technical side , all shades rather cool in general ;
somewhat contradicting with a steam locomotive's principally heat energy emphasized character
GREEN
Principally conveys images of nature or natural material in construction , especially the lighter colors convey a feeling of contentness , even happiness , green can be well applied complimentary to colors in the yellow to brown range which also stand for more natural materials such as wood first of all ; dark shades of green were often used to convey images of tradition , safety , statics , continuity and conservatism , also power in an inherited or institutional way ;
in steam locomotives , technically there is no correspondance to green , perhaps except for wood firing , which is out of question for larger engines and a squandering of natural resources anyways , whatever steam locomotives were , they certainly were no 'green engines'
GRAY
depending on lighter or darker shade and mixing with a color to provide a hint of , for example , blue or violet hue , gray can be applied to convey the character of iron or steel , although IMHO it tends to remain rather dull in general , uniform and somewhat uninspired - a clinical or unemotional non-color actually , in the sense of having a balanced spectrum of light containing all colors in neutralized way , thus a preferred choice for working cloths and utilarian machinery ;
universally applicable with steam locomotives , providing a practical working garb , conveying the idea of rational engineering , fitting most any surrounding color schemes of rolling stock and stationary equipment
RED
in its bright shades the color is representative of life , vivaciousness , power and speedy motion as well as emotion , also symbol of fire and heat energy generally ; darker shades while conveying much the same in a more subdued way , depending on inclination towards maroon or blue or violet shades may represent long lasting emotion such as in friendship , long lasting strength , enduring power , solidity , seriosity , also senior age , superiority , royalty ;
red is supporting the intensely heat energy oriented and mechanically active character of steam locomotives ; applied for upper areas it well suits boiler yet is less well justified for tender ; applied to chassis , wheels and running gear it conveys interacting motion , power and speed
This I could continue , of course to include black , also silver and white or yellow for out-lining and other colors or special shades of colors , yet I will leave it at that , anyone who feels like adding his view or comment is welcome to do so .
Oh and if you pardon me one last remark on black & red : with the British the are two principal parties : those who scorn it as 'Un-British' and thus .. u-hm .. and those who have seen in real - *g*.
Except tht in what kind of light and how often did any of us really see the difference between Brunswick green and black?
Beautiful Pictures, Sir Madog. A while back I bought a tarnished brass PRR K-5. I decided to do some research before I painted it and came across a rather "colorful" set of instructions for what I had assumed would be a rather simple job: A properly turned out K-5 featured Engine Black for the pilot and everything below the walkways, Brunswick Green for the boiler, domes, cab and tender body, Dark Graphite for the somkebox ( referred to as "front end paint" in the instructions ). Cab roof and tender deck were Oxide Red, firebox sides were Dark Graphite, cab window sashes and keystone number plate were Tuliodine Red and tender chasis and trucks were Engine Black. Pretty "colorful" for PRR practice, wouldn't you say?
I am not really good at handling Photoshop, so I will have to rely on "real" photographs for my comments.
I am having difficulties in developing a taste for non-real paint schemes at steam locomotives. While I like those mainly maroon or green paint jobs on British steamers, i find the looks of them applied to a German steam locomotive odd. Again, I grew up with those black and red standard Deutsche Bundesbahn liveries.
The DR 18 201Pacific sported a number of different colors over recent years. 18 201 was rebuilt from a streamlined 4-6-4 T loco built to haul the "high speed" train from Berlin to Dresden in the 1930´s. With a speed in excess of 160 kph, it was the fastest loco on post-war Reichsbahn tracks, maintained for testing passengers cars to be exported. I am not sure, but the originally had the usual black & red livery.
At a later date, the loco received a green and red paint job:
For some time, she sported a red color:
I can´t explain why, but I don´t like either one.
I feel fine with this paint job, applied to the ex Royal Bavarian State Railway class S3/6, because it closely matches the original coloring:
Marklin once sponsored a paint job in "royal blue", making the loco look like this:
Guess which one I don´t like!
A coke red, non, streamlined steamer - I have doubts I´d fancy that!
Juniatha,
I'll third the comment about the beautiful picture of flowers.
As far as the colors schemes for steam locomotives, the black with white and/or silver trim is so ingrained the American railfan.s psyche, that any deviation for a non-streamlined locomotive looks odd - much the same way that European style couplers would look odd on an American locomotive. The prejudice against fancy color schemes is less pronounced for streamlined steam, given the reaction to the Milwaukee A's and F-6's, the Espee GS-3 to GS-6 series and a few others.
As far as loading gauge.... Huddleston's book on the C&O class H-8 pointed out that the larger loading gauge of the C&O allowed for normal height for the domes as compared to the UP Big Boy that had to use short domes to keep within UP's loading gauge (the Big Boy was several inchs shorter in height than the H-8). It was a bit odd to see that the GS-4 was barely lower than the H-8 in spite of the Espee having some tight clearances (mostly on the Siskiyou line and NWP).
- Erik
....Flowers...! Such bright colors. So appropriate for today....
Quentin
Hi Juniatha! Beautiful flowers, VERY appropriate for Easter. Happy Easter everybody!
Hi Erikem & others
Meet the loading gauge ? sure , why not , I didn't change anything as concerns height , I just repositioned horizontally on the longitudinal center line . The color may be bright yet it doesn't enlarge wheels an inch .
Yes , the NYC loading gauge was very little higher than the Austrian , Hungarian loading gauge , also DB profile II , which was 4650 x 3200 mm , the NYC was some 4680 mm high , don't know the width over cylinders but that was pretty tight , too , possibly even tighter than the European profile mentioned . British Railways profile was so narrow in the lower part up to platform height it demanded cylinders of more powerful two cylinder engines to be slanted . Churchward's four cylinder 4-6-0 Kings and Castles were so sleek they passed without slanting - in contrast with the bulging figure of their engineering patron .
Uhm , with engines having plain bearings and consequentially having oil spill ( lesser with grease lubrication ) brightness did progressively fade away into darker shades with miles accumulating - so , in practical service it would have been half as spectacular , you may as well spare your indignation - *g*
Actually I wonder Coke red on steam wheels makes a couple of Americans shy - it's pretty much the color of the stripes in our national flag and with white linings too . Ok , I could make the black part dark blue , then it would be stars & stripes theme and who would want to go "oooh" and "argh!" about that ? Oh , by the way , I have a picture of the 4449 in stars & stripes colors , on the bicentennial train in 1976 . My father once mentioned he had missed it because I was being born just then , he smiled - when he told me .
On the other hand , guys :
how about one of the critics comes out with a proposal of his own ?
Ah , see ...
I wonder if you're NYC K-5 Pacific would have met the NYC clearance limits for height? The NYC's clearance diagram wasn't quite as generous as say the VGN's.
The red paint treatment looks a bit odd to my eyes that have been programmed on typical American paint schemes. What could be worse would be applying the Espee's bloody nose paint scheme to a steamer, in contrast to the Daylight scheme looking very nice on a diesel.
Hi Juniatha!
Interesting, interesting, your treatment of a NYC K-5. The slicking up of the top of the boiler, the moving of the sand and steam domes does affect the looks of the engine positively. The red running gear, and I know the Reichsbahn used red for very good and practical reasons, does seem a bit out of place on an American engine. Of couse, if the NYC or other roads had used red all along none of us here would think twice about it. Honestly, I like the blue treatment of the running gear a lot better. The Blue Mountain and Northern Railroad in Pennsylvania has a "pet" steam locomotive done up in a blue paint scheme with pinstriping on the drivers, kind of looks a lot like the Jersey Centrals "Blue Comet" engines of the late 1920's. You can see it on the Blue Mountains website, and also in action on PennRail Videos website. Just a gorgeous engine!
In a way, I guess I'm kind of 19th Century in my taste for locomotive finishes. Back then the locomotive builders tried to outdo each other in how spectacularly they could finish the engines. But then around 1875 or so the New York Central said "Enough! Just do ours in black, it's easier to take care of!" And not too much later most other roads followed suit.
By the way, the Erie had a K-5 Pacific as well, basically the USRA Heavy Pacific. Not as sleek as your K-5, but very rugged looking and businesslike. The K-5 is where Erie's passenger steam developement stopped, they never went on to say a Hudson or Northern type, didn't see the need
I'm going to e-mail you a picture of a "steam locomotive" with a paint scheme that'll make your blood run cold! You should here Lady firestorm whenever she sees it!
I am afraid I have to admit, that the K-5 in "Reichsbahn" guise looks a little odd to me. Somehow, the feed water heater on the smokebox top looks a little more out of the way, than in the second picture. This may only be due to me being used to the classic look of German steam locos in their black and red appearance.
Hi Firelock
Well - my own idea of harmonious looks is more about a steam locomotive basically having one uniform color from front to back end over smokebox , boiler , cab and tender tank . On that basis , there may be various dress-ups , say contrasting lining of running board , preferably not simply ending at board's back end to leave the rest in dire dullness but continued over the tender in a way both emphasizing proportions ( a little 'cheating' to improve them and make tender tank appear less bulky should be allowed ) and visually embracing both parts of the locomotive into one unit .
Further , a second color for vehicle part of locomotive ( colloquially area 'below running board' / below tender tank ) may be used to highlight these dynamic components of the engine in contrast to visually more static energy generating components . Some people also like white bands on wheel tires - however with tender bogies and in US engines generally also trailing delta trucks having outside frames , this line-out tends to fade away along the side towards the back and thus tends to create a diverting rather than combining effect , an effect like engine 'having wheels on the forward part and somehow undefined means of gliding in the rear part' , or so it seems . The higher powered wheels are , the less contrasting the two colors for 'upper' and 'lower' areas should be or again there will be a tendency to unbalance forward to rear parts of locomotive since , inevitably , a bright color spread over visually half the area around drive will contrast with somewhat suppressed looks at the tender . Freight locomotives were better suited for contrasting two-tone schemes since vertical proportions of powered wheels to tender bogie were closer together .
Also , I find locomotive designs featuring an especially smoothened exterior - not necessarily streamlining , but tending towards the British school of design , were much more sensitive to neglect of color and accumulate of 'working effects' or 'Cinderella garb' : while locomotive types with lots of technical details displayed , hopefully distributed to some visually pleasing balance and technical logics , will keep up their typical character to some extent - although inevitably in a generally unhappier appearance as dirt accumulates - the more smoothened a locomotive type was the more it only lived up with clean keep and even more so in brightly polished finished as can be seen on builder's photos or as an engine left repair shop .
Below , I dare to post again one of my loco-pixel-graphics , a NYC K-5 Pacific , modified with restyled cab , enhanced tender coal compartment curved sides , relocated dome and sand box - former more forward of the region of most intensive evaporation for making engine less prone to priming , latter moved back for more balanced layout of sanding pipes to wheels , both together forming a classic sand / dome configuration in about a harmonic distance to chimney ( I did this in a 'haphazard' off-hands style , without any scaling etc ) showing an oblong form in consequence of Kylchap double exhaust . I also hinted improved cylinders with enlarged steam chests for larger piston valves and improved low resistance steam flow . Engine should have been competitive with J-1e in performance yet at about 75 - 80% the coal consumption .
There is a version in contrasting black & red with while striping - and for those who find this too strong there is a version in NYC passenger train gray and black .
NYC K-5 with red off-set chassis and running gear , rods bright metal with red in recess of profiled rods
Same engine in black & NYC passenger train gray , again with rods same style . I hope this will be 'digestible' for the more traditionally oriented among our variety of steam locomotive fans .
(this was written on a Mac and .. you know the rest )
Hi Juniatha, and thanks for posting that Erie Pacific picture for me! Sorry I couldn't get it any sharper, but I think everyone'll get the idea of what I was talking about. Between you and I, I think the Erie's "K" class Pacifics were MUCH more attractive than that "other railroads" K class!
Here's your Erie Pacific picture :
= J =
daveklepper Even after WWII, until dieselization really took hold, the Southern 4-6-2 PS4's were kept looking sharp.
Even after WWII, until dieselization really took hold, the Southern 4-6-2 PS4's were kept looking sharp.
They certainly were, the pride of the company really showed on those engines. Thank God and the efforts of Graham Claytor one survives today in the Smithsonian Institution. Sadly, it'll never run again, but I guess life "stuffed and mounted" beats no life at all.
I suppose the "last gasp" of trainmen being assigned locomotives was on the Erie Railroad's Northern New Jersey commuter service. The Erie singled out engineers and firemen who kept their locomotives "lookin' sharp" with the "Order of the Red Spot", meaning the number disc on the smoke box would be done with a red background as opposed to the usual black.
Wish I had the skill to post pictures, it's a minor miracle I can use a computer at all, but the Erie K-1 Pacifics in commuter service were classic! Russia Iron boiler jackets, probably the last on American railroads, polished brasswork, red cab windows, polished rods, really 19th Century anacronisms when you think about it. Ah, the old "Weary Erie".
Hi Juniatha,
IMHO, maintenance and aesthetics are birds of the same feather. Even without a sleek design and/ or an elaborate paint job and lining, a locomotive looks "good" when it is well maintained and kept.
I still have memories of the early 1960, when steam was very much present on German rails. In those days, locos were assigned to specific crews, who kept their "work place" in top shop. At stations, you could watch the fireman climbing out of the cab with an oily rag, to wipe and swipe down any water stain on the boiler. That changed in the late 1960, when the demise of steam could be foreseen. Locos did not have a specific crew any longer and it did not take long for them to get that sad look of neglect.
Post-war Deutsche Reichsbahn in East Germany marked locos with a special signed, stating they were "in personal care"
Decoration as in Britain , especially before forming of the Big Four , was an extreme and for sure it could not be continued in more modern times , this is why BR standard color scheme was substantially simplified , with exception of some locomotives turned out in some quite elaborate striping and - most contrasting with American and also with German practice - in highly polished finish of paint ( or should I call it lacquer in this instance )
When in England , I saw some engines in the Railway Museum at York in downright fascinanting color schemes , finish and decoration by line-out and emblems . I must say it was impressive and it looked artistic and gave the engines a distinct dignity of their own . The best German steam loco restoration can come up with is traditional black & red scheme in bright red and sparkling glossy black - I've seen some engines in that 'fashion' and I feel it still looks great on most classes , best on the 41 Mikado and the Decapod classes , it tends to become a bit much on Pacifics - too much red to balance out with black . However , detailed finish is never up to the level I saw in Britain .
Still , to me a steam locomotive in regular traffic , kept in decently clean condition looked much more professional than one covered beneath a layer of cinders mixed with soot , abrasive brake block wear , traces of leakage of treated feed water running down boiler sides , traces of blow-by steam from leaking cylinder glands on cross head ( steam of treated water mixing with leakesd oil makes for a gray-green slime - eeehk! ) , drive gear and wheels covered with an oily compound of road dirt , abrasive brake shoe wear , cinders and what have you , completed with rusty areas on the running board and on tender tank top , rusty pipes connections , diverse leaks of steam , water and oil , also dirty cab , extra dirty cab floor , lots of lumps of coal of all sizes from fist size down to gravel in all corners of the cab , non-aligning cab to boiler fittings , out out right angle connections of all kinds , patch-ups , holes , missing covers , missing or ragged insulations , leaky injector , crockedly mounted shabby gauges that vibrate and wobble while driving and may or may not be true , at least are hard to read at speed , leaky roofs with stuck cab vents and extra-sooty mining type of extra-simple lamp , all that combined with an almost unbearable rattle , knocking , clatter , clanging of parts and items incessantly clashing while running ...
No , all that may have been present and typical of steam locomotives to more or less degree - yet it didn't have to be so and I consider myself lucky to have witnessed *one* ride on a fairly freshly overhauled Decapod where it was almost absent and riding was so much better it was incredible , almost un believable .
In my view , good up-keep of steam locomotives should have been more agreeable for crews at work and at the same time provided a more positive and more trustworthy public image to passengers .
However , that's topics maintenance and touches topic aesthetics only in so far as external cleanliness looks more aesthetic than external fouling ...
.....The blasting K-4's approaching, certainly do not have a "clean look", but to my eyes, they certainly "mean business" in appearance. Rough looking, but with geometric balance in appearance satisfy my eye as a "working" steam locomotive meaning we're doing the job......
But...Surely, that fireman might do better with less of the black, dirty smoke....
Aesthetics are very much a matter of personal views and liking - difficult to discuss, as what might be appealing to you , may not be appealing to me.
Discussing design principles puts the discussion on a more objective level.
When we take a look at steam locomotive designs of the heydays of steam, we see quite a big difference between various countries and cultures.
Looking at Britain, locomotives always had a very "clean " look to them - hardly any external piping, pumps or anything a steamer needs. They usually also sported an elaborate paint job, topped with multi-color lining and brass accessories, like exhaust stack rims, brass dome covers etc. Operating a steam loco is no clean business and it must have been a heck of an effort to keep them in this clean-shaven look.
Even narrow gauge locos sported that look:
French steam locomotives had a more utilitarian look to them, but still had a certain "elegance" in their design:
Though being more "Germanic" by culture, the Swiss followed French design principles - basically utilitarian, but with a touch of elegance:
The US, in my humble view, as well as Germany, followed a strict utilitarian approach to steam locomotive design, exceptions limited to those top name trains and their motive power:
Quote >> of course centerpeed long-distance tenders from the Mowhawks and Niagras do look out of place behind the Hudsons. <<
Dave ,
a tender having the same number of wheels as the engine unit IMHO has always been a concession to long distance running , in an international scope clearly was a case for the LWWA ( Locomotive Weight Watchers Anonymous ) Me , as for one I'd appreciate the eight wheel tenders on Pacifics at least - only , the bogies and wheel diameter showed off rather mince . The Centipede PT tenders intriguingly missed out the Mohawks , maybe because they were designed for high speed water pick up and the Mohawks were not considered first in demand .
(this was written on i-pad , and .. you know the rest )
The tender is one thing that NYC did get right with the J3A (non-streamlined and streamlined, both) and J1A. There certainly are better looking Hudsons. The New Haven I-5 being tops for streamlined (and with a good tender too), and the Lackawanna and Nickle Plate 4-6-4's for non-streamlined. But no one can complain that the NYC didn't get their 12-wheeled tenders right. Not so sure about the Boston and Albany 600's with their smaller tenders, of course centerpeed long-distance tenders from the Mowhawks and Niagras do look out of place behind the Hudsons.
I know -
Quentin , it's a wide spread phenomenon with pictures posted : bady adjusted cut-out ! In this instance it's the big locomotive in the middle taking up so much space ! Even with my smoothing *g*
.....I'm certainly not the expert here, but just peeking at the engine to the right might be a T1.
And if any locomotive looks like "power".....that Q2 {I believe}, certainly does in your photo = J =. The size of those rods and steam boxes. And driving wheels. Awesome. Even with your "smoothing" things a bit....
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