Bucyrus I assume that the locomotive has the throttle wide open, and is producing as much horsepower as it possibly can. Granted, you don’t have the stack talk inherent with a slow, hard pull, but pulling at that higher speed, surely indicates that the engine is doing a lot of work as well. . . . How many horsepower could that engine produce?
Keep in mind that HP is proportional to Tractive Effort x Speed (and if in lbs. and MPH, respectively, then divided by 375 to get the drawbar HP). So, even if the steam engine at speed is not pulling as hard, if it's going considerably faster it might still be producing more HP than at a slower speed.
For a fictitious example, if 3985 was producing 95,000 lbs. TE - per GP40-2's post on the previous page of this thread - at 20 MPH, that would be about 5,070 HP. But if at 40 MPH it was only producing 50,000 lbs. TE, the 'stack talk' might be considerably less - but the HP output would be close to 5,335. So there's not necessarily a correlation between not working the steam locomotive as hard meaning it's putting out less HP.
Crandell/ selector has a good point about the 'S' or 'reverse' curves as shown in the original video clip, as well as the evident grade. I'll force myself to review it again later on to see if I can estimate their sharpness. For sure, they are not constant, and much sharper than the 0.98 degree that I speculated above, which makes the supposed curvature resistance data in timz's post on the 1st page of this thread all the more puzzling.
- Paul North.
Sorry, everyone, and thanks CZ. Not my best composition skills evident there. What I meant was, based on the discussion between Timz and PDN, above, and looking at the S-curve and grade, albeit with some telephoto foreshortening when the camera looks to the meet near the top of the grade, it seems steeper than a mere .7%. Even so, my question pertains to the S-curve...would this not impose a substantial impediment to the climb up the grade, say by adding about 0.2%?
-Crandell
selector Do we see the location being discussed above in the video? I see the train running through a fairly tight reverse curve on the way up the grade. I also detect what I feel must be a slippage of about 7 mph by the time the Challenger crests. The last three seconds of the video that show the tail end on the curves suggests that the consist is moving more slowly. -Crandell
Do we see the location being discussed above in the video? I see the train running through a fairly tight reverse curve on the way up the grade. I also detect what I feel must be a slippage of about 7 mph by the time the Challenger crests. The last three seconds of the video that show the tail end on the curves suggests that the consist is moving more slowly.
It is Archer Hill just a few miles east of Cheyenne. The diesels that pulled the train into Cheyenne were removed at Cheyenne and the 3985 pulled the train by request of the stack train company. It did slow down for sure on the grade, but take note, five GE's had pulled the train into Cheyenne from the west. This was back in 1993 I believe so those units would have been 8-40CW's most likely.
CZ
timz [snip] Then almost immediately onto the upgrade that the chart shows as 2.7 miles of 0.7% compensated. The elevation gain is 89 ft and curvature is 98 deg, so average compensated grade is 0.65% if the grade really is 2.7 miles long. [snip]
timz, good information and to the point as always - you're one of the few that's sharper than me on these matters. However, a little clarification is needed - something's wrong with that curvature figure - should it perhaps be 0.98 degree instead ? That would be consistent with the actual grade being in the 0.62 % range (89 feet / 2.7 miles = 33 ft. per mile / 52.8 ft. per mile for each 1.00 % = 0.624 % ), and compensated up to the 0.7 % value at the rate of adding 0.05 % or so for each degree of curvature.
If a constant or average curvature, a 0.98 degree curve is a curve with a Degree of Curvature of about 0 deg. 59 mins. in civil engineering terminology, which is a radius of about 5,850 feet. (I'm not going to split hairs here over whether that's computed by the highway engineer's 'Arc' definition, or by the railroad engineer's 'Chord' definition - for such a curve, there's no practical difference.)
The other aspect is - is that a continuous curve for that whole distance ? If so, that would imply a curve that turns through a total arc or angle approaching 140 degrees of central or deflection angle = 0.98 degrees per 100 ft. chord x 2.7 miles x 5,280 ft. per mile, etc. I don't know the territory, but that seems a little odd to me. Or, if it's an average, what are the consituent curves and their relative degrees of curvature ?
None of this takes away from the essence of the analysis, conclusions, or admiration of the 3985 above - but I wanted to clarify this point, because it seems a little odd to me, that's all.
CAZEPHYRThe Challengers were rated 8000 tons on Archer grade and this train was close to that weight.
timz ...The elevation gain is 89 ft and curvature is 98 deg, so average compensated grade is 0.65% ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2BoMFZcnDI&feature=related
feltonhillIn a way, what do all the numbers matter? It's one of the all-time great runbys!! Feeble old steam locos? Baloney
This, of course, was why I posted it. It's a great shot. I am glad to learn more about the environs...the camera angle belies the reality that the average for the first 30 minutes or more westward from Cheyenne is flat-to-descending.
I am not averse to using a "test run" of this Challenger, also on youtube under that name, to poke fun at our modern diesel fans, but on the modeller forum. Somehow, it just seems right, if perverse, to find a good video of a Challenger towing two fully set-up six-axle modern diesels across Cheyenne yard.
3985 could probably produce about 4,600 to 4,700 DBHP at about 40-45 mph (rear of tender, total evaporation about 92,000 lbs/hr) anytime in over-the-road service. If pushed a bit, it could probably get to at least 5,100 to 5,200 DBHP at 40-45 mph (total evaporation about 104,000 lbs/hr). The absolute maximum output would be determined by what limit was reached first - grate, evaporation, drafting, or conversion (cylinders, valves and running gear determine the latter). 3985 also has an exhaust steam injector instead of a conventional feedwater heater, and this exacts a small penalty on its boiler capacity.
Knowing the grade, curvature, train length and weight, observed speed and acceleration/deceleration rate, it's possible to estimate the DBHP 3985 is developing when it passes the camera. My math skills are not sufficient to bring that off, however!
In a way, what do all the numbers matter? It's one of the all-time great runbys!! Feeble old steam locos? Baloney!
I assume that the locomotive has the throttle wide open, and is producing as much horsepower as it possibly can. Granted, you don’t have the stack talk inherent with a slow, hard pull, but pulling at that higher speed, surely indicates that the engine is doing a lot of work as well. I particularly like the jet engine sound as the locomotive passes the camera, and then how that sound is broken up by the heat waves as the engine heads into the distance. How many horsepower could that engine produce?
Thanks much for the additional info on the line's profile. It looks like the key to the observed performance is that Archer is a momentum grade in the middle of generally falling grades eastbound.
feltonhill I've watched this example many times but I still have yet to get any data on Archer Hill. If the train weighs 7,657 tons and is 8,900 ft long (WB Video liner notes), and 3985 is doing 35 mph (obvious fact? from the video, or is it 30?), the grade couldn't be all that steep. I suspect that the train is very long and not too heavy on a tons/ft basis. Also the entire train is not entirely on the worst part of the grade at the same time. The grade profile should be readily available from a UP track chart. Does anyone have one for reference purposes that they can post here?
I've watched this example many times but I still have yet to get any data on Archer Hill. If the train weighs 7,657 tons and is 8,900 ft long (WB Video liner notes), and 3985 is doing 35 mph (obvious fact? from the video, or is it 30?), the grade couldn't be all that steep. I suspect that the train is very long and not too heavy on a tons/ft basis. Also the entire train is not entirely on the worst part of the grade at the same time. The grade profile should be readily available from a UP track chart. Does anyone have one for reference purposes that they can post here?
Hmm.. I counted 36 revs in 10 seconds, which comes out to 44 mph if I have done the math correctly.
feltonhilldata on Archer Hill.
For those who don't have that, the profile looks about like this:
Train is all on near-level track at Cheyenne, 6059 ft elevation or so
Eastward, they almost immediately start down, bottoming out at 5947 ft elev after 3-1/2 miles. Then almost immediately onto the upgrade that the chart shows as 2.7 miles of 0.7% compensated. The elevation gain is 89 ft and curvature is 98 deg, so average compensated grade is 0.65% if the grade really is 2.7 miles long. Then immediately downgrade at 0.6-0.7%-- so the center of mass of the train never reaches the summit elev 6036 at Archer.
The camera is west of the summit (see the half-mile marker on the pole?) and their speed would continue to drop until the engine was well east of the summit, so 45 mph when the engine passed the camera isn't as informative as we'd like.
As I recall there's no reason to think their speed thru the sag would exceed 60 mph even if they're full throttle all the way down the hill, and the curves aren't a problem at that speed, so for all we know they were full throttle all the way from Cheyenne to passing Archer, assuming the tonnage is correct.
Edit: as the engine passes the camera I count about 25 driver rotations in 9.4 seconds, which would be 33 mph. Even that isn't going to be any snap; until I do the calculation I'm still predicting full throttle was needed to get that at that point.
feltonhill...and 3985 is doing 35 mph (obvious fact? from the video, or is it 30?)..,
When the engine runs abreast of the camera, I would estimate its speed, based on driver revolutions per minute, to be near 45 mph, perhaps a bit more. I agree...it just doesn't seem to be working that hard. Lots of sharp stack talk, sure, but it isn't down to the 20 mph laboured drag that it should be with all the weight. Still, though, darned impressive.
selector http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgHrDbN4EU Enjoy! -Crandell
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgHrDbN4EU
Enjoy!
Crandell
The Challengers were rated 8000 tons on Archer grade and this train was close to that weight. After topping Archer, 70 mph running was the order of the day. I would have to believe the Challenger could handle more tons over the hill today with the roller bearing cars.
Looks like shes what she does best Moving a train at speed LOL Larry
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