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Westside garratt

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Westside garratt
Posted by IA and eastern on Wednesday, April 3, 2019 10:27 AM

Westside had a garratt with K-27 boiler and K-27 running gear at both ends. Would a K-36 boiler work better or would C-48 boiler work better. If not what would the size of the boiler be. Gary

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, April 3, 2019 2:28 PM

As said back in 2015, Dick Truesdale had a good sense of humor.  This discussion belongs in the Model Railroader forums, unless we want to take up a theoretical discussion of narrow-gauge Garratts using Rio Grande components ... not the likeliest scenario for steam development there or perhaps anywhere else a science project made of steam 'leftovers' elsewhere in the world might be.

On the other hand, I still think the Canadians would have liked this:

PS -- boiler on a Garratt wants to be as fat as it can and still fit the loading gage and permissible overhang/overlap on curves; it wants to have the deepest possible drop to the firebox leg bottoms and ash pan no matter how high the boiler is set.

Added points if you use some of the overhead clearance for taller domes/outside dry pipe for lower carryover when working hard...

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, April 3, 2019 4:13 PM

Well that sure got my attention! 

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, April 3, 2019 4:25 PM

I thought specifically of you and NDG when I saw it.

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Posted by SD70Dude on Wednesday, April 3, 2019 5:56 PM

And not me?  For shame.  

A Garratt would have been quite handy for hauling the unit phosphate and acid trains to the Port Maitland fertilizer plant, which the TH&B received at Hamilton.  Quite the climb up the Niagara escarpment:

http://www.railpictures.ca/?attachment_id=13630

http://www.railpictures.ca/?attachment_id=8128

If only steam had lasted longer, and Garratts caught on in North America.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, April 3, 2019 6:27 PM

Garratts might  have caught on in Canada, British influence and all, and they might  have caught on in some South American countries, but here in the US?  I kind of doubt it.  In addition to the "NIH", or, "Not Invented Here" syndrome working against them they just look a little too bizarre by American standards.

Hey, most American railroads couldn't agree amongst themselves about what was  the best in our own home-grown locomotives!  

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Posted by Penny Trains on Wednesday, April 3, 2019 6:57 PM

Oh, I don't know.  They're not that far removed in appearance from of the offset side of a Shay.

Trains, trains, wonderful trains.  The more you get, the more you toot!  Big Smile

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Posted by Miningman on Wednesday, April 3, 2019 7:15 PM

Dude! Where you been? Ok great analysis and provided pics of TH&B Phospate train climbing up the escarpment. 

Garretts on the TH&B ... and I like the selected number of 503..perfect! 

Here this will make you feel better.. new pic surfaced of NAR 161

161 (ex CP 2563) MLW 46056 5/1909 Edmonton, October 1960. 
End of steam is just days away. Max Miller/Bud Laws CollectionI

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, April 3, 2019 7:16 PM

Quite true Becky.  But then, Shays, Climaxes, and Heislers were owned by logging companies who didn't care what the things looked like, they just had to work!

And of course, they were kept way back in the woods where the general public couldn't see 'em anyway!

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Posted by MidlandMike on Wednesday, April 3, 2019 7:54 PM

Did Garratts catch on anywhere besides British Colonies?  I am familiar with Cape gauge garratts, but were any made in std gauge?

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Posted by seppburgh2 on Wednesday, April 3, 2019 9:28 PM

Many many years ago, Railroad Model Craftsman had a "what if" editorial of a double UP big boy Gasrratt. What stuck in my mind is the accompanying drawing, this 4-8-8-4 + 4-8-8-4 crossing over from the left main, center main, to the right main. WOW.

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Posted by IA and eastern on Thursday, April 4, 2019 6:35 AM

What I asked was the K-27 boiler was too small so would a K-37 boiler be big enough or would the boiler have be a C-48 boiler. Or would the boiler have be bigger. ALCO proposed to the Rio Grande Southern a 2-8-8-2 that would have two K-27 chassis with a new boiler. Gary

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Posted by 54light15 on Thursday, April 4, 2019 2:20 PM

Garratts were also used in French-owned Tunisia as I recall. 

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 4, 2019 11:11 PM

54light15
Garratts were also used in French-owned Tunisia as I recall.

The most glorious of all Garratts were built for, and used in, Algeria.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 4, 2019 11:17 PM

IA and eastern
What I asked was the K-27 boiler was too small so would a K-37 boiler be big enough or would the boiler have be a C-48 boiler. Or would the boiler have be bigger.

As I said, the boiler would have to be as large as the loading gage allowed in girth, with as deep a firebox as possible.  That is likely to be larger (and more heavily constructed) than anything else used on the D&RGW narrow gauge.  However, expect the tubes to be no longer than necessary; Garratt boilers benefited from being relatively short, for reasons not hard to divine.

The Alco proposal would have been a Mallet, with the corresponding relatively long, relatively small-diameter boiler to fit.  What I would propose instead is a Meyer type (where a fairly standard boiler has one of the K27 'chassis' pivoted underneath, and the other chassis pivots with its last driver pair away from the cylinders directly behind the firebox area.  This gives the same deep drop, better waterleg space, and better convection of the Garratt-style boiler without the funky pivots and required long space between engines.

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Posted by Paul Milenkovic on Friday, April 5, 2019 1:53 PM

What is your insight into the long steam pipes problem, both for admission and exhaust?

Wardale discusses this in The Red Devil in connection of whether "Wardalizing" the GMAM would have had a bigger impact than his improvements to a 25-class "Northern."  The minute you go from the compact layout of 2 or more cylinders in close proximity to both the superheater header and the blastpipe, you have all kinds of opportunities for loss of steam pressure, on both the admission and exhaust sides of the cylinders.  According to Porta, the restrictions on the exhaust side are much worse in regard to lowered thermodynamic efficiency owing to the much greater steam volume after expansion and the work = pressure times volume relation.

Wardale thought that bigger steam chests can mitigate losses on the admission side -- larger reservoirs to reduce the "pull down" in pressure when the valves open.  This does not appear to be a solution for the exhaust.

 

If GM "killed the electric car", what am I doing standing next to an EV-1, a half a block from the WSOR tracks?

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Posted by 54light15 on Friday, April 5, 2019 2:30 PM

Overmod, I knew it was in North Africa, wasn't sure where. Now, here is the question: Does anyone make a Garratt in N scale? I want one on my layout. My layout is set in West Germany during the TEE years and no it won't be correct but who cares? 

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Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Thursday, April 18, 2019 7:02 AM

seppburgh2

Many many years ago, Railroad Model Craftsman had a "what if" editorial of a double UP big boy Gasrratt. What stock in my mind is the accompanying drawing, this 4-8-8-4 + 4-8-8-4 crossing over from the left main, center main, to the right main. WOW.

 
I remember a similar article in TRAINS a lot of years ago about a proposed Mallet Garratt and other impossible proposals.  A letter in "Railway Post Office" a few months later included the sketch described above.
The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul

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