All of a sudden N&W 611 is the greatest steam engine ever. Good? Absolutely. Great? Yes. Greatest? Depends on the criteria, but I can think of at least three other 4-8-4s that are more-deserving of that title. Time to cool the hype?
Having grown up with SP Daylight 4-8-4's I'm naturally biased in favor of them. I like a locomotive that, although streamlined, still looks rugged and purposeful. The 611 is just too sleek and bulbous for me. Also the 70 inch drivers seem too small although they don't hurt 611's performance which is admittedly awesome. Eighty inch drivers would make for a more graceful look all around, especially at speed. That much said, it's really good to have her!
I don't think that there were any poorly-designed 4-8-4's in North America. However, they tended to be designed with a particular service in mind. While the J may have been an excellent performer on N&W, I doubt that it would have done as well on Santa Fe's long runs.
CSSHEGEWISCHI don't think that there were any poorly-designed 4-8-4's in North America.
(And it could be argued that the problems with it were more circumstantial than engineering-related...)
I for one am not going to succumb to the troll of a straw-man argument about the N&W J, and 611 in particular, being the 'greatest' 4-8-4. There are people who think the J is God's gift to steam design, and those who probably think it's a freight engine stuffed in a clown suit. (I confess I was leaning toward the latter camp until I learned about the engineering involved in the design, and the locomotive's proven capabilities; I certainly know better now!)
Can we not take joy in the fact that such a great engine is running, and have nothing bur further joy that any other 4-8-4 runs, without having to compare our 'favorites' or have a foam pissing contest?
Not intended as a troll or to start a pi**ing contest. Steam locomotive design and operation are fascinating topics in and of themselves and I hoped for responses along those lines. And I tried to indicate that "best" or "greatest" are really dependent on the criteria used. If I offended, I apologize.
No apology needed.
I was concerned because I wasn't aware there was an excessive amount of the "611's the greatest and others suck" kind of opinion going on, and was worried that responses to the form of your original post might devolve into the "Oh yeah?" "Sez you!" kind of diatribe where everyone mentions their particular pet over everyone else's. Glad to see that not happening.
The situation is of course a little 'forced' with 844 down indefinitely, but steam anywhere and everywhere is a joy. That specifically includes 4449, and 2926, and 3751 for that matter.
Now, what were the three locomotives you had in mind ...
NM_CootGreatest? Depends on the criteria, but I can think of at least three other 4-8-4s that are more-deserving of that title.
But that's a waste of time, since the number one criterion is operating cost and we know nothing about that.
I think it novel that not many 4-8-4 northern steam locomotives got in on the streamlining craze that took America in the Art-Deco design period.
A fair amount of 4-6-2 and 4-6-4 designs got some good and some bad treatment in streamlining - The Dreyfus New York Central Hudson series with disc drivers and roller bearing drive really put the "hudson" through. Likewise the Milwaukee F7 "hudson" defined continued high speed performance "trains cross this road at over 100 mph" signs all across rural Wisconson. The "Crusader," The Burlington "Zephyr", the "Chessie," the "Blue Goose" and many more some good some bad all got in on STREAMLINE.
The streamline craze really died before the "northern" 4-8-4 had a chance to get into it. A few semi streamline engines - SP, GTW - seemed to have oddly developed but few full blown Art Deco streamline designs occured EXCEPT N&W 600's into the 1950's! I might be tempted to include the Pennsy Duplex here because Pennsy really never develped a 4-8-4 - the DUPLEX seems to have been that effort. The 4-4-4-4 was indeed a full streamline treatment and a chisel nose beauty.
In this sense the N&W 4-8-4 #611 - IS the true heritage of top streamline steam power! The Pennsylvania 4-4-4-4 which didn't live into the present day could have been the record holder but its gone. THE MOST POWERFUL SURVIVING HIGH SPEED STREAMLINE STEAM LOCOMOTIVE heir to the Twentieth Century Limited, Broadway Limited, and Twin Cities Hiawatha - IS THE N&W 611. Last and best of its kind!
Read it a weep boys! - when you see N&W 611 strut her stuff your looking at the BEST OF THE BEST - and don't give me this "bulbous look crap! - every woman is beautiful in her own right - some however are more beautiful than others - if you don' like the buxom N&W northern you need your head examined."
AIN'T SHE SOMETHING!
Doc
Isn't a question like this similar to asking a bunch of boys in the schoolyard who has the prettiest mom or strongest dad?
The best steam engine is the one that one liked best as a child. Who could persude one otherwise?
You gentlemen can likely guess my nominee for this peculiar honor.
Dr D AIN'T SHE SOMETHING! Doc
Not even close to an NKP or ATSF PA1.
Not a "best of" comment at all, but just a note:
It is really going to be fun to see 2926 in operation. In some respects that locomotive is the "American Pharoah" of steam locomotives in that, by a compendium of written accounts over the years, apparently excelled at "Steam's Triple Crown" - sustained high speed passenger service, mile-long fast freight service, and helper service lugging freight up the Abo Canyon grade.
With gratitude to the folks in New Mexico who have plugged away over the years to make the dream a reality!
I was going to jump in on this, but oh my, LOOK at the time!
I've got to get out the compass, face in the direction of the holy city of Roanoke, and bow.
See you later.
NKP guy Isn't a question like this similar to asking a bunch of boys in the schoolyard who has the prettiest mom or strongest dad? The best steam engine is the one that one liked best as a child. Who could persude one otherwise? You gentlemen can likely guess my nominee for this peculiar honor.
So true and well put. Some years ago I sat and tape recorded conversations with retired railroaders, most of whom started in the days of steam. One of my favorite conversations with them was about steamers, I would ask did you have a favorite or which was the best. With most the answer was simply " the one that could do the job".
I too have a particular favorite, and the likely nominee is?
Of all 4-8-4s, yes the J is my favorite. But I can see perfectly well why others may prefer the Q's O-4, the Niagra, the SP G-4, and particularly the Sante Fe Ripley 4-8-4s. And the UP 800s; and Milwaukee and CN and ACL and RF&P and D&H and C&O and DL&W had some very fine ones also. Not a bad or ugly one in the whole lot. Glad I had a chance to ride behind most of them. The real argument is whether they or the Hudsons deserve the title of Qeens of the Steam Era.
Reminds me of the old
"My dad can beat up your dad."
"Oh yeah? What does he charge and is he busy Saturday?"
I had to do it.
"Yeah? So can my mother."
selector "Yeah? So can my mother."
Nothing to do with the topic, but this reminds me of a story I've just got to pass on.
A woman I read about was a World War Two Army nurse in the European Theater, and like a lot of ETO vets brought home some souvenirs, one of which in her case was a German helmet.
Well, she came home got married, had a son, and one day gave the boy the helmet to play with. A next-door neighbor saw the boy and said "Hey! That's a great lookin' Nazi helmet! Your dad get it in the war?"
"No!" the boy said, "My MOM did!"
She said the look on the neighbor's face was priceless!
It would be interesting to see monthly mileages on ATSF 4-8-4's with their long runs such as Kansas City-Los Angeles.
groomer manCould it be said as far as availability and miles run per month the J was the best
groomer mana Niagara in a Don Ball book that said it ran 20,000 miles in one month.
Having rode #611 and also saw her passing by and doing a short chase, she is a beauty. I'd had never seen a streamlined steamer before and she's very sleek. But I still love #1522, #4960, #844 and #765, the ones I've been involved with and saw running. There is a place for both types of steam-as long as it's steam, that's what really counts. And #611 does have an awesome whistle.
Shortly before Norfolk Southern retired the steam program in the 80's they did a series of 611 excursions out of Detroit to Fort Wayne, Indiana. My sons were both children so my dad and I took the Dodge Diplomat Police Car which I had - on a day of train chasing.
Now this - blue Dodge Diplomat police car with spotlights - was a briliant thought because like most police squad cars the back seat was used for prisoner detention. The children were basically locked in place until parolled - and second the car looked exactly like the ones used by the railroad police or police everywhere - unmarked but official. It was great for getting into everywhere and getting left alone by everyone.
In the evening and before 611 left for home, railfans were being treated to a session of "visit the cab of 611." I was surprised by several female crew members and the conversation ran to "What are we going to do now that there will be no more steam program?" Also, "Managment doesn't care anymore so we are just about running 611 as fast as we want to!"
We left to chase 611 on the return trip in the twilight all the way back to Detroit and with the Police car, this meant that everyone basically stayed out of our way.
We caught the train one time after leaving Fort Wayne, and unlike many other trips it was simply impossible to stay with that STEAMLINE NORTHERN on the run to Detroit. True to their word the train crew was getting all the speed they could on the run back. Compared to many other steam trains I have chased 611 was SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE TO CATCH - one truely fast steam engine and train, and I am sure they were well on their way into the 80 mph range if not faster as the crew discussed.
My sons were disapointed - everywhere we stopped - 611 was simply gone! This redefined for me what a truely fast high power steam locomotive was capable of. 611 was a rainbow of color in the Michigan twilight! It was the end of a glorious era!
If I can figure out how to get a couple of great VHS video "pacing" shots onto this post I will have to do it. By the way there were drawbacks on the "police car" thing too - if we misbehaved with it then other people would do this also - we always had to look like we were about some kind of official business or official perk - go silently and not attract attention.
It also boils down to marketing. The Fire Up 611 campaign frequently referred to 611 as the greatest 4-8-4 ever (not in those exact words) to help raise the millions needed to restore and sustain it. If they had said "the greatest 4-8-4 depending on who you ask" there would not be as much interest from the non-railfan community. Seeing "the greatest" operate again also drums up attention from the media similar to when UP received national coverage for moving "the largest" steam locomotive ever built for eventual operation.
Considering that this is the only Northern that I ever saw, I always considered it to be the best looking--from my first sight of one in Bristol in April of 1954 to my last sight in the fall of 1957. During that time, I had only two rides behind one--from Radford to Bristol on #17, and from Bristol to Wytheville on #46; both trips were in 1956.
From time to time, I would take the 7:00 p.m. bus from my college campus in to the station--just to admire the engine that was ready to take #42 out--and then walk back to the college. I wish I had taken notes of engine numbers, but I may well have seen all 14 of them (41, 45,46, 17, and 18 came in/went out at times inconvenint for me, though I did take 17 out once during those years).
Johnny
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