Firelock76eah, well you better get ready John, one of these days you may be hearing "Drums Along The Mohawk!"
Yeah. Well you better remember Wayne. Rome fell and this extra Mohawk is exactly the same thing. I'm warning you.
John
Like it is very hard for me to tolerate Stuart Saunders who had nearly all the N&W steam engines scrapped. 611 had to be begged for. 1218 happened to be in the right place at the right time-twice. Most of what was probably the finest fleet of steam engines are now irreparably lost.
lois
I don't like to speak ill of the dead, but Stuart Saunders was a money-man, not a railroader. Read "The Men Who Loved Trains" by Rush Loving to get the story.
To get the story of how 611 was saved read "Steams Camelot" by Jim Wrinn. Let me tell you, Graham and Bob Claytor fought like lions to save that locomotive, and praise be they won.
Firelock76I don't like to speak ill of the dead, but Stuart Saunders was a money-man, not a railroader.
Wayne,
Based on what I have read railroad financing and railroad technology were intertwined almost from the beginning. Building and even operating a railroad is an expensive proposition and usually requires that large sums of money be borrowed. The borrowed money must be managed. Managing the money may lead to bad technical decisions but if the money is poorly managed there may be no railroad regardless of how well operated it is. As I see it the problem with Stuart Saunders is not that he was a money man; it is rather that he and Alfred Perlman who was a railroad man if ever there was one were barely on speaking terms.
Hi John!
Well, Stuart Saunders and Al Perlman didn't start butting heads until the Penn Central era which is another story. Right now we're comcerned with the N&W in the tail end of the 50's.
Certainly railroading and capital go hand-in-hand, but when I say Saunders was a money man I mean, and I believe "The Men Who Loved Trains" bears me out, Saunders was running the N&W simply because it was his job. He could have been running Ford Motor Company, or US Steel, or anything else as far as his emotional involvement was concerned. The railroad in it's own right meant little or nothing to him.
It gets back to a comment I made on a post a year or so ago. Railroading strikes me as more of a vocation than a job. The best railroad executives like Al Perlman or the Claytors look at it that way.
Wayne
Firelock76 I don't like to speak ill of the dead, but Stuart Saunders was a money-man, not a railroader.
I don't like to speak ill of the dead, but Stuart Saunders was a money-man, not a railroader.
Saunders was a lawyer, not a 'money man.' But Bob Claytor was a lawyer, not a railroader. So was Graham Claytor.
Brosnan, on the other hand, was a railroader.
The issue was not that Saunders was a 'money man' -- it's that the man was a buffoon when it came to actually running an organization anywhere but into the ground. And yes, your point about railroad executives needing to have what today is called a 'passion for' railroading is very, very valid.
Firelock76The Men Who Loved Trains" by Rush Loving to get the story.
I may just have to break down and buy the book. It isn't available from any of the country libraries in my system. I have read The Wreck of the Penn Central by Joseph Daughen and Peter Binzen.
Overmod, maybe I should have said Saunders was a "bottom-liner", it's what I meant by money-man. Brosnan of the Southern was a "bottom-liner" as well, spent no money, ran the Southern into the ground and Graham Claytor had to pick up the pieces.
Getting back to love of the business. Graham and Bob Claytor were lawyers, certainly. As specialists in corporate law they could have gone into any business they wanted but they chose railroading. Why? I have to believe it was a love of the industry.
And oh yeah, Saunders was no leader and no genius, except for finding a rising tide to ride. But when his luck ran out, oh brother. Down he came and everything else with him.
John WR Firelock76The Men Who Loved Trains" by Rush Loving to get the story. I may just have to break down and buy the book. It isn't available from any of the country libraries in my system. I have read The Wreck of the Penn Central by Joseph Daughen and Peter Binzen.
John, "The Men Who Loved Trains" was published in 2006 so if there's any copies around, say from Amazon.com they should be available at a pretty good discount.
If there are any used book dealers in your area leave your name with them. Most are very good in calling customers looking for a specific article if it shows up in the shop.
If there are any train shows coming up in New Jersey check them out as well. Scroll to the bottom of this page and check out "Resources", then "Coming Events", its very comprehensive. Train shows are a lot of fun to visit at any rate, and New Jersey seems to have them on a pretty regular basis, both big and little ones.
I have read "Steam's Camelot" and are familiar with the battle the Claytors faced. I don't like to speak ill of the dead either, but anyone who would scrap 7 and 8 year old locomotives hints of insensitive. If she could, I believe 611 would have laughed if she heard of the wreck of Penn Central.
Maybe 611 DID laugh at the wreck of the Penn Central. Who knows? Maybe on a cold, clear moonlit night in Wasena Park, with the wind whistling over the smokestack and down the sides, through the ashpan and up through the firebox someone may have heard a low chuckle from somewhere.....
Never underestimate the revenge of a queen.
Firelock76 Maybe 611 DID laugh at the wreck of the Penn Central. Who knows? Maybe on a cold, clear moonlit night in Wasena Park, with the wind whistling over the smokestack and down the sides, through the ashpan and up through the firebox someone may have heard a low chuckle from somewhere.....
She is not that kind of girl. Virginians understand noblesse oblige.
That is true. 611 is a lady and would have kept her delight to herself.
Overmod Firelock76 Maybe 611 DID laugh at the wreck of the Penn Central. Who knows? Maybe on a cold, clear moonlit night in Wasena Park, with the wind whistling over the smokestack and down the sides, through the ashpan and up through the firebox someone may have heard a low chuckle from somewhere..... She is not that kind of girl. Virginians understand noblesse oblige.
Well, not all the time Overmod. After the fall of Richmond in 1865 a Union soldier helped an old lady who'd fallen to her feet and carried her groceries home for her. "Thank you young man" she said, "If there's a cool place in Hell I hope you get it!"
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