It would seem that the towers became obsolete due to new technology. Why, then did some towers last so much longer than others?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding wrote: It would seem that the towers became obsolete due to new technology. Why, then did some towers last so much longer than others?
Sometimes it's better to have a pair of eyes and ears 'on the ground' than a bunch of track circuits monitored from 1000 miles away, you can keep a simple mechanical interlocking working almost forever with not much more than a pot of grease and a few hand tools (and you don't need a laptop computer to debug it when it fails!), and sometimes it's just easier to leave it alone than get several railroads to agree/pay for it's replacement.
Tony
denverhank wrote:MP173--how do we excess the fostoria web thread? Would like to take a listen. Thanks
It's on rrradionet. There are a bunch of live streaming radio feed around the country on this site. Here is the link:
http://www.railroadradio.net/index.php
I can't speak for other states, but in Illinois, the first railroad at a junction gets to have their man in the tower. The Chicago and Alton was one of the earlier roads to be built in Illinois. But a predecessor of the Wabash got to Springfield first and so that job was a Wabash job.
Same thing for Joliet. The C&A built northward from Alton and the Rock Island was already in place so they manned the tower with their man. Now I believe it's a Metra job.
I worked at Corwith for awhile; the Santa Fe was the johnny-come-lately there so they didn't have their man in the tower. Their tracks were on one side of the Alton and their Corwiith Yard was on the other side. Their long freights slowly exiting or entering the yard could block the Alton's main for a considerable time. Made for an interesting time.
Art
The railroads have suffered in ways they don't know by closing towers and agency stations. Years back the train dispatchers came from the ranks of the agent/operators. Those that wished to be dispatchers, and could pass the tests had an idea how long it would take a crew to do a couple of pick ups and/or setouts. By working the interlocking towers they had a idea what would happen if they'd stop a tonnage train, or let a drag across ahead of a passenger train because at one time or another their butts had proably been chewed for making the wrong decision.
For the most part todays dispatchers have no operating experience, their railroad career may have only consisted of working at a crew (mis)management center or maybe in the customer service center (1-800 who cares). Consequently the new breed of train dispatchers have no idea how long it takes a train crew to get even a simple move done or how long it takes to go 40 miles at 30mph. Had a CP dispatcher once tell me she was too busy to figure out that complex math problem. No wonder she is the dog catch crew queen. What is even sadder when the train or section crews report a problem to the new breed, the dispatcher most likely doesn't have a clue what they are talking about or what the track layout (or what is left of it) looks like.
artschlosser wrote: I can't speak for other states, but in Illinois, the first railroad at a junction gets to have their man in the tower. The Chicago and Alton was one of the earlier roads to be built in Illinois. But a predecessor of the Wabash got to Springfield first and so that job was a Wabash job. Same thing for Joliet. The C&A built northward from Alton and the Rock Island was already in place so they manned the tower with their man. Now I believe it's a Metra job. I worked at Corwith for awhile; the Santa Fe was the johnny-come-lately there so they didn't have their man in the tower. Their tracks were on one side of the Alton and their Corwiith Yard was on the other side. Their long freights slowly exiting or entering the yard could block the Alton's main for a considerable time. Made for an interesting time. Art
I was always under the impression that when a railroad under construction needed to cross another one that was there first, the cost of the crossing, the tower, and its operation was permanently borne by the second railroad. It makes sense, since the tower would not be required if not for the addition of the second railroad. I have read of crossing wars during the era of railroad construction where two converging railroads raced their construction to try to beat each other to a crossing point so they would not have to pay for the endless cost of operating the crossing.
Bucyrus, I didn't say that the Alton was paying for the employee in the tower or for the maintenance. But you wouldn't want the johnny-come-lately delaying your trains when you were there first!
And that's why it was important in a race to be there first - you get to call the shots. The RT&N had that problem with the C&A, even built an embankment to make the Alton think they would install a viaduct over the track, but in the middle of the night, the rails were cut and a crossing laid. Cheaper to pay a man's wages than to constantly keep a bridge in repair. The C&A didn't like the competition or the nuisance but no road does.
I got my paycheck from the GM&O (they bought the Alton just before I hired out); l have no idea what the GM&O collected from the Santa Fe or what the CN now collects from BNSF.
artschlosser wrote: Bucyrus, I didn't say that the Alton was paying for the employee in the tower or for the maintenance. But you wouldn't want the johnny-come-lately delaying your trains when you were there first! And that's why it was important in a race to be there first - you get to call the shots. The RT&N had that problem with the C&A, even built an embankment to make the Alton think they would install a viaduct over the track, but in the middle of the night, the rails were cut and a crossing laid. Cheaper to pay a man's wages than to constantly keep a bridge in repair. The C&A didn't like the competition or the nuisance but no road does. I got my paycheck from the GM&O (they bought the Alton just before I hired out); l have no idea what the GM&O collected from the Santa Fe or what the CN now collects from BNSF. Art
Brings up some interesting questions, Art.
Wasn't some sort of government commission permission needed to cross another railroad's tracks? How could a railroad in the middle of the night secretly cut another railroad's rails to install a diamond? What if a train came through while the work was in progress?
doghouse wrote:Does anyone have pictures of the rod layout, bell cranks(?) and other such outdoor workings. I can see it, but I need to "see it."
There's some info/pictures of rodding and interlocking equipment on UK tourist lines here:
http://www.signalbox.org/branches/kw/minehead.htm (the botton two pictures show the interlocking equipment itself which is below the lever frame) and http://www.wsr.org.uk/bajuly2003.htm is a description of installing point (switch) rodding.
The first picture here - http://www.mnr.org.uk/news/2005/november.html shows a couple of 90 degree bell cranks - 'L' shaped bits of metal with a pivot in the centre and rodding connected to each end.
Art,
I understand what you mean. Your point about the person in the tower being able tilt train movement advantages to the benefit of his or her employer is a good one. I am most familiar with a Milwaukee Road tower for a crossing of the M&StL. The M&StL was there first, so the Milwaukee built and maintained the crossing and tower, and also supplied and paid for the operator. So with this "total ownership" status, the tower institution tended to regard the M&StL as a second class citizen. This attitude could have practical effects in certain siturations, depending on how the trains showed up.
You're right, Bucyrus, owning the towerman is an advantage. But the towerman couldn't be real mean to the 'other' railroad though. I didn't let a Santa Fe freight out in front of the northbound Alton Limited one day and the yard master started chewing me out about delaying his train; he wanted it out ahead of the Santa Fe Passenger Parade that started around 5:30 pm. I hung up on him so he called back and started all over again. This time I just laid the phone down and continued with what had to be done at the moment.
I eventually got a letter from 'above' later on telling me to talk 'nice' to the yard master but there was no formal reprimand. At that time, 1951, passenger trains were still being taken seriously.
There have been several crossings put down in the middle of the night and I have often wondered what laws were broken or government edicts ignored. Never have heard of lawsuits but maybe a google of this topic would yield something.
artschlosser wrote: There have been several crossings put down in the middle of the night and I have often wondered what laws were broken or government edicts ignored. Never have heard of lawsuits but maybe a google of this topic would yield something. Art
I have a story about one of those crossing wars, but I have to look it up in my book collection. There were rules and laws, but possession was often contingent somewhat upon actual placement of track. I have a newspaper article (in the 1880s) about the milling district of Minneapolis, and the Manitoba RR trying to get their tracks into a mill that was served by the M&StL RR. The Manitoba had removed the M&StL track, and were installing their own in its place. The M&StL decided to shove boxcars into where their track had been in order to fortify their claim to the route and to prevent the Manitoba from laying down their track there.
Of course it’s not easy to shove a cut of cars into a place where the track has been removed. So they coupled two engines onto the shove, and got a good running start while the cars were still on the rails, hoping that the momentum would carry the string of cars in a straight line on the ground where the track was removed.
As might be expected though, the first truck to hit the ground, plowed in, and turned sideways, which concluded with a giant heap of splintered cars. Nobody was hurt in the debacle, and later that same day, the dispute was settled at the administrative level.
nbrodar My office, at CSX's Eastside yard, in Philadelphia - RG Tower - was manned until the early 90s. The operator's desk was next to the yardmasters desk. With the exception of the operation Schuylkill River Drawbridge, all movements are controlled by the AV Dispatcher in Jacksonville, FL. Even though the operator is long gone, tradition dies hard, and the office and yard are still refered to as RG Tower and RG Yard. Most people look at you funny when you call it Eastside. Nick
My office, at CSX's Eastside yard, in Philadelphia - RG Tower - was manned until the early 90s. The operator's desk was next to the yardmasters desk. With the exception of the operation Schuylkill River Drawbridge, all movements are controlled by the AV Dispatcher in Jacksonville, FL. Even though the operator is long gone, tradition dies hard, and the office and yard are still refered to as RG Tower and RG Yard. Most people look at you funny when you call it Eastside.
Nick
What does the RG mean?
BmoreferrisWhat does the RG mean?
Such initials are often the old Morse code calls of a given station. The origins might be obscure (Thendara, NY on the NYC Adirondack Division was "FC", for Fulton Chain, the original name of the station). Or they may reflect some local feature.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 Bmoreferris What does the RG mean? Such initials are often the old Morse code calls of a given station. The origins might be obscure (Thendara, NY on the NYC Adirondack Division was "FC", for Fulton Chain, the original name of the station). Or they may reflect some local feature.
Bmoreferris What does the RG mean?
In the telegraph days - each office had a one or two letter call sign (at least on the B&O) so the Train Dispatcher could notify the operators of those stations he called that they would have to do something - mostly copy a Train Order or write up a action or notification of something that was less regulated than Train Orders.
RG was the call for Philadelphia's Schuykill River Bridge and it also came to identify the yard that was also there.
WJ was the call for the Operator at the West End of Wilsmere Yard in Wilmington.
BA was the call for the Operator at the West End of Bayview Yard in East Baltimore
NA was the call for the Operator at North Avenue and the junction with the PRR
HB was the call for the Operator at Hamburg Steet that controlled the entrance to Camden Station, both the upper and lower level when New York passenger service was still operating.
CX was the call for the Operator at Carrolls - where a branch through Mt. Clare A yard and a cut off to a location outside Curtis Bay Yard known as Cliffords.
BX was the call for the Operator at Brooklyn - the West End of Curtis Bay yard.
HX was the call for the Operator at Halethorpe - the West End of Baltimore Terminal and the junction with the Washington Branch and the Old Main Line
The call signs were unique to the area covered by a Train Dispatcher - there were locations on other B&O Divisions that had the same call signs in places as locations on other divisions.
In the days of telegraph there were many more Train Order Operator locations than survived into the days of the telephone transmission of Train Orders which existed when I hired out in 1965. Today there are virtually NO Train Order Operators - with CADS (Computer Aided Dispaching System) being use by all the Class 1 carriers. There are very few 'tower operators' left manning interlockings that have not yet been included into the operation of CADS on each of the railroads.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Bmoreferris The location is where the B&O entered joint B&O/ReadinG trackage through the city. My Dad took me down to the Frank Furness-designed B&O station at the (west) foot of Chestnut Street for the last passage of The Royal Blue. The O gauge club layout upstairs probably already had their pre-demolition notice. A sad day indeed attended by many mourners. I went to Catholic University here in DC and hung out at the old B&O University station, location UX. It's one of the places where FDR would detrain before Union Station and it's press crowd when his polio condition was too evident. Much later I'd hang with the friendly operators at QN tower below (literally) Rhode Island Metro. It wasn't near either Quincy or Quarles streets and I couldn't figure that out. Balt may know that as well as whom "Breakiron" might have been. Rick nbrodar My office, at CSX's Eastside yard, in Philadelphia - RG Tower - was manned until the early 90s. The operator's desk was next to the yardmasters desk. With the exception of the operation Schuylkill River Drawbridge, all movements are controlled by the AV Dispatcher in Jacksonville, FL. Even though the operator is long gone, tradition dies hard, and the office and yard are still refered to as RG Tower and RG Yard. Most people look at you funny when you call it Eastside. Nick What does the RG mean?
The location is where the B&O entered joint B&O/ReadinG trackage through the city. My Dad took me down to the Frank Furness-designed B&O station at the (west) foot of Chestnut Street for the last passage of The Royal Blue. The O gauge club layout upstairs probably already had their pre-demolition notice. A sad day indeed attended by many mourners.
I went to Catholic University here in DC and hung out at the old B&O University station, location UX. It's one of the places where FDR would detrain before Union Station and it's press crowd when his polio condition was too evident. Much later I'd hang with the friendly operators at QN tower below (literally) Rhode Island Metro. It wasn't near either Quincy or Quarles streets and I couldn't figure that out. Balt may know that as well as whom "Breakiron" might have been.
Rick
rixflix aka Captain Video. Blessed be Jean Shepherd and all His works!!! Hooray for 1939, the all time movie year!!! I took that ride on the Reading but my Baby caught the Katy and left me a mule to ride.
Bmoreferris Nbrodar My office, at CSX's Eastside yard, in Philadelphia - RG Tower - was manned until the early 90s. The operator's desk was next to the yardmasters desk. With the exception of the operation Schuylkill River Drawbridge, all movements are controlled by the AV Dispatcher in Jacksonville, FL. Even though the operator is long gone, tradition dies hard, and the office and yard are still refered to as RG Tower and RG Yard. Most people look at you funny when you call it Eastside. Nick \What does the RG mean?/
Nbrodar
My office, at CSX's Eastside yard, in Philadelphia - RG Tower - was manned until the early 90s. The operator's desk was next to the yardmasters desk. With the exception of the operation Schuylkill River Drawbridge, all movements are controlled by the AV Dispatcher in Jacksonville, FL. Even though the operator is long gone, tradition dies hard, and the office and yard are still refered to as RG Tower and RG Yard. Most people look at you funny when you call it Eastside. Nick \What does the RG mean?/
\What does the RG mean?/
They pop-up because someone has a question as to WHY? a railroad spent some some of money, time and, employed personnel to make a piece of real estate protect a function of its location on that railroad...
TOWERS???? Once ubiquitous in the rail environment, are now in the process of joing that bird species, relagated to History...Manned by railroaders who protected the property, and trains of their TOWER'S
owning railroad....
As previously noted; They were ubiquitous instaqllation throughout railroad's territories.
The term "Armstrong" generally applied tothe type of equipmwnt inthat tower....The equipment in, and about, that location was operated manually; switches, derails, and other track and train direction, Instructional directing of important signage, instruction to specific trains needing those notices (stop signs, directional instruction to train crews, etc.?)
hardware, was generally operated by the muscle power(and knowledge of the Individual Operator('s ?), on-duty. Their in-attention to their assigned duties, was potentially, catastrophic!
Unfortunately, the TOWERs are, these days historical relics, if they still exist at all ?
My bet woukld be that there are more Towers existing, now on Model Railroads: (*Lionel, American Flyer, and HO that still operate?)
rixflix The location is where the B&O entered joint B&O/ReadinG trackage through the city. My Dad took me down to the Frank Furness-designed B&O station at the (west) foot of Chestnut Street for the last passage of The Royal Blue. The O gauge club layout upstairs probably already had their pre-demolition notice. A sad day indeed attended by many mourners. I went to Catholic University here in DC and hung out at the old B&O University station, location UX. It's one of the places where FDR would detrain before Union Station and it's press crowd when his polio condition was too evident. Much later I'd hang with the friendly operators at QN tower below (literally) Rhode Island Metro. It wasn't near either Quincy or Quarles streets and I couldn't figure that out. Balt may know that as well as whom "Breakiron" might have been. Rick
I have no idea of the significance of QN other than I expect it was created when Washington Union Station was created which I think was about 1913. QN was the entrance to Union Station from the West. F Tower was the entrance to Union Station from the East. Union Station, F Tower and QN Tower form a wye. QN Tower also controlled entrance to Eckington Yard - the B&O's yard in Washington.
Brakeiron - I recognize that as the name of a Operator - Donald Brakeiron. I don't know what towers he routinely worked, but I do recognize the name.
Wow, this is a seriously old thread.So much and so many people in these threads are not with us anymore that's for sure.
So old that your friends at Hobart, Redondo and Mission all bit the dust (or in the case of Redondo - burned)
Too bad, what about mission tower?
In Iowa Falls, IA, the tower still stands that controlled the crossing of the IC and the Rock Island. The tower belongs to the local historical society and sometimes is open to the public. The man who usually took care of that passed away a few years ago, so it's not open as much, but a special tour can probably be set up. (Many small societies will do appointments when they don't have regular hours.)
It still has the interlocking machine, a small pistol grip type instead of the armstrong levers. At one time the interlocking involved two Rock Island routes, crossing both themselves and the IC. In it's last years, one of the RI routes was pulled up and the machine reflects the removed diamonds with unused or removed handles. It was the last open interlocking in Iowa.
The second to last, was in Des Moines, called Short Line Jct. It controlled the RI crossing of it's east/west and north/south lines, as well as some nearby RI crossings with other railroads. It also controlled a short section of CTC. The tower itself is gone, but the interlocking machine, a pistol grip model is at the Boone & Scenic Valley RR musuem in Boone, but I don't believe it's currently viewable. The also have the model board and instructions for manipulating the machine to set up routes.
This link is to instructions for the duties of towermen working Short Line Jct.
SLT Work (archive.org)
I was fortunate to visit Short Line Tower when it was still a RI tower in 1979. I also visited the tower at Tama IA where the MILW crossed the CNW main and branch line a few times in 1976 - 78 era. Tama was an armstrong lever plant and I was allowed to line up the plant for a westbound train on one visit. Now you can barely tell that there once was another railroad that crossed there.
Jeff
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