Thanks! As I said I am not into details but showing my stuff of in the facts department. I photograph it and just show it. For all your old topo maps go here.......
Tracking the William Henry Vanderbilt South Pennsylvania Railroad right of way along the Historic Pennsylvania Turnpike.
....Yes, Russ....great stuff. I have copies of similar maps {on the computer here}, but it takes me only to the top of Laurel Hill mtn. from Ligonier with the PW&S....Yours brings it on down the east side of the mountain and then even picks up the Boswell Branch and follows it all through the little mining towns, clear over to just where you could see about 4 horseshoe curves {you can see at least 2 and part of another one which leaves it short of about a mile or so before it entered Friedens and connected to the S&C...{B&O}.
By the way, I'm certainly no engineering expert but I believe about a mile of 2% would produce just a bit over 100' elevation, enough to gain the elevation connection from the Boswell branch to the S P grade at the bridge elevation.
All great stuff Russ.
Quentin
If that is 90 feet, and the South Penn is at bridge level then they would need a good distance back to start there climb. Again I am not into engineering side of the South Penn but into showing evidence on its whereabouts. My education is not that high. All photographs of documents, and photographing sites and reading maps. I let them do there job and I just do mine. But I really enjoy mine a lot.
I would say the height at Geiger is about the same from the South Penn to the B&O grade as this Boswell branch is to the South Penn would you not agree?
I have this 1913 quad of that route as well as the PW&S line on that same quad coming out of Ligionier. Now remember this map was made during the operation of the PW&S line. So it is true.
.....I'm sure B&O engineers / surveyors could have approached that higher S P alignment starting back a ways and graded to it enough that it could have been negotiated. I believe that cut there at the bridge was in the area of 90' deep. Necessary to get the route down that low to start the decent down into Acosta, Jenners, etc....If they would have kept their grade up at the S P elevation there, the grade down to the upcoming mining towns possibly would have been too steep to bring loaded coal trains out that way...{Back to Somerset}.
You know, it would have been a long way around but that route continued on around and came out back on the S&C at Friedens, and then they could have headed to Somerset from there and on to Rockwood to hit the main.
Western Maryland had trackage rights down that deep cut when the mine at Sipesville was operating yet, as WM trains came over from Rockwood...{from the route you mentioned of being a popular trail now}, and brought coal out of the Sipesville mine.
Suppose the S P might have had a chance of hauling coal out of all or some of those mines in those little mining communities such as Acosta, Harrison, Jenners, Jenners #2, Quecreek, Boswell and Ralphton.....maybe even Sipesville. We'll never know.
....Continued tomorrow late in the day....
Have a good day.
....Oh, do you mean to interchange traffic with the S P at grade....?
Still, the B&O had to maintain it's grade through there to keep it constant as much as possible....The line at that point coming out of Somerset has several horseshoe curves on it trying to maintain the planned grade.
I only state what I read. They were to far beneath the South Penn for the B&O to eventually utilize the South Penn sort of a different scale line way above a completely diferent line unable to get access to what they purchased or to bring in the new line to their line without going out of the way to cost to connect.
...Not following that Russ....The Boswell line had to maintain a certain grade through there and whether the S P existed or not, one way or another it would had to have happened some way.
....I was going to say, I doubt there would ever have been need of a passing siding as there probably was only one train out on the branch at once, but I just happened to think, there were passenger trains on the branch too, so yes, more than one was possible.
...Yep, that's the bridge I crossed and stood on to take my pic's...
And the tracks visible behind the lady shows a turnout....That puts a question to my thoughts....
When I took my photos at that spot {both directions}, there was no turnout....Thinking back, not even much room for one....??
Wonder if earlier {much earlier}, there may have been a passing siding there....?
When I get a chance I better try to find my photos of back about 1994 and take another look......
Can you see the railroad along the hillside in this on the turnpike shot. It's there.
The view looking west would allow part of the South Penn be seen just to the left of this bridge. Great South Penn train shots if it had happened.
The owners sister standing on the south side of the bridge from 1916.
.....What a great photo....And the bridge abutments of the bridge I mentioned of standing on to take pictures....!! What a great view of what turned out to be a long very deep cut.
My first thought.....How did they get that sizable {steam}, shovel to that sight....?? We're looking at a photo taken very early in the 20th century, and at that point in time not very many {big}, trucks available to carry such loads. Perhaps the S&C line {Johnstown to Rockwood}, was in place, so at best it could have been brought to Somerset on it...but how then did it get out there....?? On it's own power....via the Boswell branch ROW, under construction....?? More equipment up the cut further too.
This photo is really of interest to me knowing just where it is and what it's history is {sort of}, and so on.....And of course what it looks like now.
....And now taking a closer look at the steam shovel...it looks like it is supported on rails as it goes....Digging it's own ROW to move forward. Not on crawler tracks....
That's a real interesting scene to me Russ.
Here's the construction photo of the Boswell Branch of the B&O showing the new Red Goose Road Bridge being built as well.
....And now, just received the Sept. TRAINS mag.....Sure keeps a fellow busy keeping up with all this stuff.
Plus the fact, I'm in the process of figuring how to connect a new digital cable box to my incoming signal to allow my new HD TV to do it's stuff....No more just buying a TV and connecting the 300ohm and power cord and sitting down and watching it...Those days are gone.
Just now thumbing through my new mag., it appears it has a bunch of really nice RR pictures. Have no idea what articles are in it yet.
Russ, you should get some of your better SouthPenn photos / maps, etc., and a good article to the editors for an upcoming TRAINS mag issue....
....Pennsylvania fans....do you have any info to add to the discussion....SouthPenn and Penn. Turnpike interests should have an interest in this subject. Engineers, of about 120 years ago did make an extreme effort to put another route of transportation across the state from roughly Harrisburg to Pittsburgh.
Actually, it seems those engineers did rough out one of the best routes across that area, but for the RR, it didn't quite make it for several reasons....Not that it couldn't be physically done...Other economical reasons. Guess political too.
Here is another map showing the South Penn survey of Falls City/Ohio Pyle with Confluence to the right. The darker line is the now CSX alignment to the north of the river. Remember South Penn is where Western Maryland/Bike trail is seen today. Notice SPRR on map tag @ bottom right of map.
....Must run, want to catch the news....It has been fun digging up a bit of history.
....And I think from the info I've seen and have, the PW&S did stop in the Somerset vicinity. That alternate alignment does seem {to me}, like it had promise thinking of what the terrain is out through there.
That would have eliminated that large fill {and cut}, at Gieger hill top, etc....But I'm sure they had a reason.
ReRead the last post I sent Iwas editing it when you responded back
.....Ok, now it all make sense. Thanks.
....Russ...I can't quite get squared away with what I see on your latest map. I see the S P coming down from it's mountain decent and can follow that long straight section on out to it's gentle right curve..{I know where that's at}, and another straight section heading roughly south, southeast...{and I know where that's at}, but what confuses me is where the PW&S cuts off the S P ROW and turns right and now heads towards the edge of somerset...{I know where that is and was}, but for it to continue on beyond Somerset on the east side....That's got me....?? Thought the PW&S stopped right in vicinity with a Passenger / freight station.
PS: If my mother was still alive she might be able to tell me as she rode it....as a child.
....I certainly concur with all of that. I stood on the mentioned bridge and took those exact pictures back roughly...1994 or so....That was a deep cut there at that bridge. It gave a little anxiousness standing on it seeing how deep it was.
When I took my pic's, the rails were still in place. I know I have the pic's here someplace but not in digital form. My location was exactly the same, but I was standing on the bridge.
Some years ago when I drove back there to take a look {after I heard they filled it in}.....My first thought was, where did they get all the ground to make a fill that large. It's a wonder they didn't create a dam on one side of it....Wonder if they inserted drain tile before it was filled in....?
Wonder where the B&O builders put the ground they took out of there way back when.....?
Above: In this shot looking back towards Somerset, the Boswell branch is below me and the SP would be coming from E. left to W right directly in front of me at the same elevation I am on. This cut was dug out in 1912 or 16 as the lady stated.
Below: The view looking north away from Somerset.
SP crossed over this section but this section of B&O was not yet built in 1884-5 so when they did build and the SP existed the B&O would also have been beneath the SP.
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