Tracking the William Henry Vanderbilt South Pennsylvania Railroad right of way along the Historic Pennsylvania Turnpike.
...Good morning Russ. It's amazing all the different "items" you have pulled up out of the past. The "logo", etc....
By the way, where do you conduct your presentation in Somerset to the Historical Soc....?
As you probably noted in an earlier post, we plan to be in Somerset starting Aug. 2nd. Another visit.
Quentin
I spoke last Thursday @ 7:00 and as always I was suppose to speak for only 25-30 min. but the interest is always high that I stop at 25 and give the audiance a cahance if they want me to stop or continue on. Well I spoke for 1.5 hours. Other times as long as 2 hours.
I was invited last January after doing a presentation in Bedford. I was refered to Somerset as well as Everett and they both went all past 1.5 hours. The Somerset Historical Soviety north of town is where I spoke last Thursday. I think they want me back after I complete a Somerset powerpoint program. Thats going to be quit long..
....That's interesting Russ.....I would think it would be just us rail fans, etc....that would have the interest in such history, but glad to hear it is much more. Sounds great.
Believe I remember that Historical area is {going north}, on rt. 985 and would be off to the left up on a rise...Just a few miles out of downtown Somerset. Near the Grapevine Restaurant...{Used to be Ratsy's}....with excellent spaghetti.
Totally correct. I will be their for the 6th year this year at Mountain Craft days in Sept. I've been their since 2001. One year I almost forgot to send in my registration and when I appeared about a month before the manager asked if I wasn't coming and was concerned as He has witnessed me when I am their and watched me talking to people and was concerned I wasn't coming.
Well a great many people live near this line in that county and are hungry for what was going on about that line. I seem to have the answers and they like that.
This shot shows theEBT Shade Gap line marked connecting to the South Penn. Need larger map let me know. I will send it via e-mail.
...No problem, was able to click on your map and then enlarge {that}, to 150% and then I was able to check things out.
I wonder what SouthPenn and EBT's plan might have been at interchange since one was {to be}, standard gauge and one 3' gauge.....?
By up sizing your map I could bring up our home town...{Stoyestown}, even with the old spelling, which was {is}, along the S&C ex B&O that runs from Rockwood to Johnstown.
It's great having all these visual aids to show the connection. I have a map which shows the Shade Gap pulling just along the north of the South Penn just outside the west portal of the Tuscarora Tunnel. I'll see if I can locate it.
The black line is the Shade Gap coming from the top right and the red line is the South Penn curving out from the Tuscarora tunnel alignment at the bottom right. Notice the stoped black line alongside the red South Penn grade. No the turnpike is NOT on this alignment. That alignment juts out beyond the railroad alignment.
How does one reach the overlook of Norfolk Southern's Rockville bridge? I have a Harrisburg street atlas which was published by ADC maps and it shows a Roberts Valley Road going up the hill from Front Street in Rockville (PA). Is that the road to take?
Are there any landmarks to show where the trail down to the overlook begins?
Are the trail and the overlook on public or private property?
...Had to resort to the "map" as it appeared over on the screen where I'm typing now to create the post....Couldn't enlarge it over on the original post. But no matter, I then enlarged it some more over here and looked at the details of the route {tunnel}, through the mountain and swinging south as it exits the western opening.
Of course I believe the Turnpike would {in later years use the same openings of Tuscarora.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d64/spennrr18811885/RockwoodLetter.jpg
Here is a letter located in the flats or hilly section just west of the Chestnut Ridge north east of Mt. Pleasant, and north west of Laurelville, Pa. Frick country. It's talking or discusing the coal in that area. I know the exact farm they are mentiong at the turnpike crossing at highway 981.
FireFox doesn't recognize copy and paste acording to their pop up window when I try to paste from photobucket.
Yes the turnpike did use the railroad tunnel and that one shown is the east bound tunnel which was the railroad. The westbound tunnel was built after wwll.
....Anymore Pennsylvanian's out there {that might be familiar},to join in on some history of this {almost}, RR thru Penna.....Jump in.
Boy, Russ....that area around Mt. Pleasant is some pretty hilly country....Not extreme mountains, but certainly up and down territory but there is a RR that passes right across rt. 31 as one passes thru there. I realize the route of the S P would have been a bit north of there.
Having the maps and seeing exactly where they were to go I see no problem as to where they were to lay track and work. In that area they were next to but not on the turnpike alignment. Yes if the South Penn was built, it would make for some great rail fanning. Much better then the Pennsy alignment. That alignment was B&O just to the east of Mt. Pleasant. It's still there. Still used.
Out of order but you will get the picture
South Penn proposed alignment to Wheeling and flirting around Frick Coke sites between Connelsville, Uniontown and Tippiecanoe. Notice small tag @ bottom right. Nothing but documents to back up my findings. Anyone can do it but only I have done this research. The top left corner to the town seen at the at 6:00 position is the route 51 route to Uniontown. Connellsville is upper right missing.
....When one mentions Connelsville, you are talking about rough territority. Waterway following would be the only affordable way thru that area. Several years ago when the wife and I came through that town on the way back "home"....to see that former passenger station in town that now sells colored glass, etc....I was really amazed how steep the hill was to get out of there towards the north east....
Vanderbuilt's line seems like it would have been some miles shorter from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, than competing Pennsylvania RR line up around Horseshoe, etc....That line has a horizonal saw tooth pattern to get around some of the mountains, it had to be somewhat longer than the ill fated SouthPenn....And still it seemed the S P was able to keep grades reasonable....Max at about 2%. To me it seemed unusual where they {engineers}, were able to locate it.....Up higher in their profile crossing the mountains and plateaus.....
Western Maryland never came into Pennsylvania until 1906. I have maps (added) showing 1884 that show a proposed line on the almost exact alignment as Western Maryland now the well known DC to Pittsburgh Bike trail as being the southern route out of the Allegheny Tunnel east portal as being South Penn. Thus the southern side of the Yough is or was reserved for the South Penn.
Shunk said (have to find it but documented proff) a savings of 40 miles between the Pennsy and the SP.
TheB&O now CSX is on the north side while Western Maryland took the south up until 1980's? However this next map is a South Penn Map of Confluence dated 1883.
Notice the Horse Shoe curve at Harndsville. That never existed during the Western Maryland alignment.
A South Pennsylvania Railroad map showing the New Haven & Connellsville/B&O/CSX existing route as well as the surveyed route of the South Penn entering Connellsville. Look close at the upper left coming across the Moreland estate showing the Mounts Creek survey alignment which today is near Laurelville just near the turnpike west of the Chestnut Ridge. Basically following route 982. into north Connellsville.
....Have you ever visited the passenger station I mentioned in earlier post downtown Connelsville Russ....? It was a wierd location. Track elevation was up high and several flights of stairs had to be climbed to reach the boarding location. Of course track is long gone and structure that it was on but abutments are still there, at least in part.
Yes I have been to that site, but know nothing of how thw tracks were laid. It is an interesting site and lines itself up with the line coming into from the south east along the yough river.
....Not too far from your location of presentation to the Somerset Historical folks Russ, {headed north, towards Jennerstown}, on 985...I'd bet you know the S P crossed that highway and passed back south west from the Historical location and headed towards it's Laural mt. climb, and Quemahoning Tunnel....
Someplace back in there it had to pass over or under the Boswell Branch of the ex B&O...{now abandoned}. I've looked at that area on satellite but really never drove back in there { from 985}, on the available county road that gets near it.
Yeah I just was talking to a person I had shown my presentation to said she has photos of that cut being worked on by a back hoe. I photographed the photo but didn;t upload to my computer yet. Will do so soon. It use to be a bridge now filled across with fill (I;m told) from SPRR fill nearby. That section is on this map but not he Boswell section.
Above: In this shot looking back towards Somerset, the Boswell branch is below me and the SP would be coming from E. left to W right directly in front of me at the same elevation I am on. This cut was dug out in 1912 or 16 as the lady stated.
Below: The view looking north away from Somerset.
SP crossed over this section but this section of B&O was not yet built in 1884-5 so when they did build and the SP existed the B&O would also have been beneath the SP.
....I certainly concur with all of that. I stood on the mentioned bridge and took those exact pictures back roughly...1994 or so....That was a deep cut there at that bridge. It gave a little anxiousness standing on it seeing how deep it was.
When I took my pic's, the rails were still in place. I know I have the pic's here someplace but not in digital form. My location was exactly the same, but I was standing on the bridge.
Some years ago when I drove back there to take a look {after I heard they filled it in}.....My first thought was, where did they get all the ground to make a fill that large. It's a wonder they didn't create a dam on one side of it....Wonder if they inserted drain tile before it was filled in....?
Wonder where the B&O builders put the ground they took out of there way back when.....?
....Russ...I can't quite get squared away with what I see on your latest map. I see the S P coming down from it's mountain decent and can follow that long straight section on out to it's gentle right curve..{I know where that's at}, and another straight section heading roughly south, southeast...{and I know where that's at}, but what confuses me is where the PW&S cuts off the S P ROW and turns right and now heads towards the edge of somerset...{I know where that is and was}, but for it to continue on beyond Somerset on the east side....That's got me....?? Thought the PW&S stopped right in vicinity with a Passenger / freight station.
PS: If my mother was still alive she might be able to tell me as she rode it....as a child.
.....Ok, now it all make sense. Thanks.
ReRead the last post I sent Iwas editing it when you responded back
....And I think from the info I've seen and have, the PW&S did stop in the Somerset vicinity. That alternate alignment does seem {to me}, like it had promise thinking of what the terrain is out through there.
That would have eliminated that large fill {and cut}, at Gieger hill top, etc....But I'm sure they had a reason.
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