The other issue that is not being addressed is where will the electricity formerly generated by locomotives come from once the catenary is strung. The existing power grid cannot handle the additional load from railroads.
A problem with the "how in the world are we going to pay for this?" argument is it assumes we're currently paying nothing and this is an entirely new expense. How much do railroads currently pay each year for diesel fuel? The fuel costs are paid from the rates they charge companies for moving their goods (and the companies pass the cost to the consumer), and I assume using fuel costs as an expense giving them a tax break, meaning they pay less tax (so we pay more). Ultimetly we all pay for it.
It is likely, once the infrastructure was in place, that using electricity (which could be generated by solar power, wind power, etc.) would be much cheaper per year than diesels.
I would argue that taxpayer funding spent on rail electrification would be a better investment than subsidizing personal vehicles. Never going to happen though for various political reasons. Plus we really can't afford it anyway.
In the original article in Forbes the areas of highest percentage of electrification seem to be the countries with government-owned railroads.
It would be interesting to find out how the various countries power the catenary.
If there is a financial case for electrification it will happen.
Those India double-stack trains with drover vans or whatever they are called there (cabooses) on the end are impressive, albeit still shorter than the typical US train.
However they do double up with a mid train locomotive and drovers van on some. They look to use 5-packs of flat cars.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yNq8lP6cfL4&pp=ygUnaW5kaWFuIHJhaWx3YXlzIGRvdWJsZSBzdGFjayBjb250YWluZXIg
BaltACDLet us also face the fact that the PRR segment of electrification on the NEC was done for the most part with federal money. FDR investing in the country to get it moving out of the Depression
I don't know if NYC repaid their RFC loans for the 'pump priming' construction of the J3as, but someone who is a New York Central fan or historian will know. I don't think Staufer said definitively in Thoroughbreds, but will check when I have time.
The financing for catenary need be no more complicated that Government guarantees of construction loans, to keep rates controlled and necessary tranches available, and setasides from taxes. To the extent the cat and wayside power are part of a larger 'energy strategy' -- as they certainly should be -- alternative capital and maintenance funding should be involved on some fair pro-rata basis.
tree68 PJS1 This is a critical question. For a nation with a federal government debt of more than $33.8 trillion, as well as gobs of state and local government debt, where will the money come from? Someone will have to make a convincing case for the investors that electrification will pay back, in spades. Barring that, or a healthy infusion of taxpayer money, it's not going to happen.
PJS1 This is a critical question. For a nation with a federal government debt of more than $33.8 trillion, as well as gobs of state and local government debt, where will the money come from?
Someone will have to make a convincing case for the investors that electrification will pay back, in spades. Barring that, or a healthy infusion of taxpayer money, it's not going to happen.
Let us also face the fact that the PRR segment of electrification on the NEC was done for the most part with federal money. FDR investing in the country to get it moving out of the Depression
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PJS1This is a critical question. For a nation with a federal government debt of more than $33.8 trillion, as well as gobs of state and local government debt, where will the money come from?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
David1005 And the big one, where would the money come from to pay for all of this.
This is a critical question. For a nation with a federal government debt of more than $33.8 trillion, as well as gobs of state and local government debt, where will the money come from?
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
I have repeatedly noted my belief in battery-hybrid dual-mode-lite as a progressive solution to 'electrification'. Whether the 'engine' part is diesel, biodiesel for zero-net-carbon, or blue hydrogen with sequestration for zero-carbon ought to be more or less 'tech agnostic' with respect to the form of the electrification; the key (as the Garrett engineers noted in the '70s) was to size and operate the trains as if they were limited by the onboard power, rather than go straight to 6000hp 'straight electrics' that require continuous access to high-voltage current with good short-term draw regardless of traffic.
The Chinese developed a perfectly good "potholing" solution suitable for HSR construction. I'm quite certain we could develop at least as good a solution once the 'political will' is there to implement OHLE "rollout" (first on severe grades and as 'recharge points' for dual-mode) but the issue here is demonstrated feasibility.
Meanwhile, the Indians happily operate full electrification with ridiculous overhead clearance (think clearance required for 25kV with doublestacks on skeleton flats!) and it looks every bit as ridiculous as you'd think it would, but it seems to be operable. Yes, there are better prospective solutions that involve dual-mode-lite, but again there's proof in the real world how the trick can be done.
I note with no particular surprise (and more than usual quiet disappointment) that the Next Big Thing of battery/hydrogen light rail trains is being quietly abandoned (apparently in favor of battery trains with distributed recharge points). Remains to be seen whether the North American version of the fuel supply system can be made to work any better. But do NOT expect that straight hydrogen fuel-cell locomotives as replacements for diesel-electric units are going to be much of a successful development...
We're coming up on two decades of the nonsensical idea that PTC should be an overlay on legacy signal systems. Europeans have had very effective signal systems that work with 25/50kV since at least the days of TVM, and if there has to be a 'walking rollout' of compliant PTC as punctate electrification proceeds, it should be implemented (without a lot of consultant BS and wrangling about it) in parallel, to an appropriate standard.
If the railroads are looking for equipment heights at around 21 feet, The clearance for electrification would be around 29 feet. That is a major obstacle. All the signal systems would have to be replaced as the locomotives would need to use the running rails for the ground return. There is the question of where would a reliable source of power come from. And the big one, where would the money come from to pay for all of this.
Forbes article on electrification especially in North America. Article says major cost is getting sufficient clearance for CAT. Maintains batteries solution for meeting tunnel and bridge clearances. However IMO most dead areas that have insuffient clearances are rather short rail distances. IMO operating trains with a top and tail of electric DPUs would solve most of these problems except for tunnels longer than most trains. Those trains yes would need battery carrying locos. Horse shoe route and maybe just a few others in the east. Out west some tunnels already have enough clearance,
IMHO the major cost of electrification are the many delays trying to do potholing for the verticle poles. That work is hidden below ground and not sexy. Just look at Caltrain's delays (just recently finished all poles) and the earlier delays in the New Haven - BOS installation of CAT mostly due to delays in erecting verticle poles.
For potholing there is the obvious rock in the ground, but also various utilities next to tracks and in some locations parallel haz Mat pipelines. (SP has many miles). That does not count utilities crossing ROWs at all kind of angles.
Most Rail Is Already Electric And All Will Be Even In North America (forbes.com)
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