A bit late to this thread.
So in 20-30 years, will all class ones have electrics hauling freight or still be using diesels but with competely "net zero" free of carbon emissions?
This is an interesting topic, I do know there were some surveys being done on electrifiyng the transcon from Chicago to Los Angeles, but it never happened.
BaltACD NittanyLion Euclid If the praise is actually credible, why won’t it be applied to diesel locomotives with the same zeal as planned for gas/diesel cars? In part, because you can't. Feasibility is still king. The cost structures are wildly different. EVs need a lot of power plants. Ok, well, we also just plain need a lot of power plants anyhow. You'd also need those to power electric trains. So, that cost is a wash. But, putting up cat all over the country is going to be a staggering cost. At the same time, installing chargers every where will be expensive. That's also a wash. Why? Because we're still building a lot of gas stations too. Cars will still demand more power stations, regardless of it being electric or gasoline or magic beans. So that's the big rub: electric trains require a lot of brand new infrastructure that you only need to build to have electric trains. Electric cars require a lot of brand new infrastructure that you build in place of other infrastructure that you're building already. And if a railroad isn't ugly enough for those who value their 'view'; a railroad with catenary structures facilitating the power wire being 25 feet above the top of the rail will be ugly on steroids.
NittanyLion Euclid If the praise is actually credible, why won’t it be applied to diesel locomotives with the same zeal as planned for gas/diesel cars? In part, because you can't. Feasibility is still king. The cost structures are wildly different. EVs need a lot of power plants. Ok, well, we also just plain need a lot of power plants anyhow. You'd also need those to power electric trains. So, that cost is a wash. But, putting up cat all over the country is going to be a staggering cost. At the same time, installing chargers every where will be expensive. That's also a wash. Why? Because we're still building a lot of gas stations too. Cars will still demand more power stations, regardless of it being electric or gasoline or magic beans. So that's the big rub: electric trains require a lot of brand new infrastructure that you only need to build to have electric trains. Electric cars require a lot of brand new infrastructure that you build in place of other infrastructure that you're building already.
Euclid If the praise is actually credible, why won’t it be applied to diesel locomotives with the same zeal as planned for gas/diesel cars?
In part, because you can't. Feasibility is still king.
The cost structures are wildly different. EVs need a lot of power plants. Ok, well, we also just plain need a lot of power plants anyhow. You'd also need those to power electric trains. So, that cost is a wash. But, putting up cat all over the country is going to be a staggering cost. At the same time, installing chargers every where will be expensive. That's also a wash. Why? Because we're still building a lot of gas stations too. Cars will still demand more power stations, regardless of it being electric or gasoline or magic beans.
So that's the big rub: electric trains require a lot of brand new infrastructure that you only need to build to have electric trains. Electric cars require a lot of brand new infrastructure that you build in place of other infrastructure that you're building already.
And if a railroad isn't ugly enough for those who value their 'view'; a railroad with catenary structures facilitating the power wire being 25 feet above the top of the rail will be ugly on steroids.
This is really a problem. There's been quite a lot written lately about how hard and long it takes to build anything in the US. The litigation can go on for years and years until the builder gives up and goes home.California, believe it or not, may be the leader in trying to streamline construction. They've just realized the timeline for everything that needs doing is too long. Let's see what they do about it.
This guy has some interesting points of view. https://substack.com/@noahpinion
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Yeah, it is virtually every place that someone could have got anywhere near the cat. Not even for trespasser protection, but places where you could have physical contact with the wire or close enough for arcing.
The modification in place over the NEC has been around for years on a lot of overpasses and it really is a safety issue. Penn Central ETT's from 1969 state in the special instructions that there is danger within 24 inches of energized catenary.
NittanyLionSo how much is this modification going to cost to every bridge in the country that goes over tracks?
There have been careful designs since at least the 1850s for making 'overhead railroad infrastructure' look attractive, or at least less awful. A number of them characterize the early New York elevated-railroad scene. As long as we can keep contemporary "architects" of the Gehry sort away from the design and implementation, it might be possible to come up with a proper combination of appearance, longevity, and ease of installation. Especially when the complaining public is coughing up the money, albeit indirectly, to make it so.
BaltACDAnd if a railroad isn't ugly enough for those who value their 'view'; a railroad with catenary structures facilitating the power wire being 25 feet above the top of the rail will be ugly on steroids
On the matter of ugly, and I don't know if this came up before in this long thread, there's a lot of follow-on costs that would drive up the cost into the "impossible" range.
Here's a place I drive over with some regularity, over the CSX tracks south of Alexandria, VA: https://goo.gl/maps/tcbm86DKuJVRVt1X8
Here's another place I drive over, across the NEC in DC: https://goo.gl/maps/sCzwiNGeB9eodTou8
So how much is this modification going to cost to every bridge in the country that goes over tracks?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
EuclidAlthough I believe there is so much strong oppostion to it that it will not become widespread as a result of the decline of fossil fuel use. I
There are those to be found who oppose ALL forms of electrical generation. Each camp has their favored niche, ie, hydro, solar, wind, and of course carbon-based.
Item in today's local newspaper - Group is opposed to proposed solar farm.
Near me: A man and his wife actually changed their residence so they could oppose a wind farm. He ran for town supervisor and held the post for several years. While their battle against the wind farm was successful, the view from their cottage over the beautiful St Lawrence River now features a wind farm they can't do anything about.
There is a substantial population who believe hydroelectric power (mainly the dams that are necessary to generate same) is evil. The dams should be removed.
Nuclear has already been mentioned.
The state recently failed to renew a reg/law that made biowaste a renewable, nearly making a local facility close.
I'd love to see all the fanatics of these causes together in one room so they can argue about whose technology should take up the slack when their chosen resource is removed from the mix.
I suspect it would get messy. None of them wants to give up their electricity - it just can't come from {insert source here}.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
EuclidIf the praise is actually credible, why won’t it be applied to diesel locomotives with the same zeal as planned for gas/diesel cars?
Backshop Euclid What is currently being swept under the rug is the need for renewable energy to completely replace fossil fuels in the production of electricity. When will that be mandated? It has to be part of the deal. Do you include nuclear energy as "renewable"?
Euclid What is currently being swept under the rug is the need for renewable energy to completely replace fossil fuels in the production of electricity. When will that be mandated? It has to be part of the deal.
Do you include nuclear energy as "renewable"?
No, but I am not opposed to it. Although I believe there is so much strong oppostion to it that it will not become widespread as a result of the decline of fossil fuel use. I also would not consider nuclear to be renewable according to what that term has come to mean.
In fact the application of battery power to locomotives is one of the more sensible methods of 'electrification of transportation' technically: the locomotives have more available packaging space for the necessary complex battery architecture, and system weight is nowhere near as important as it is for road vehicles.
Much of the problem is in the jump from zero-net-carbon, which would allow 'carbon carrier fuels' if they are renewably sourced, to zero-carbon.
What is currently being swept under the rug is the need for renewable energy to completely replace fossil fuels in the production of electricity. When will that be mandated? It has to be part of the deal.
The elephant in the room is that almost certainly any maintaining of the desired multiple electrifications (including vehicles and premise HVAC) is going to involve some form of nuclear power. Now of course I'm transparent in wanting a reasonable domestic industry for this, but equally sardonic about how frequently American government and industry has dropped the ball over the years on actually running the technology effectively, including the decision to close West Valley, not allow the project in Homer, and basically refuse any effective reprocessing of spent fuels.
kgbw49 Getting this back to railroads, perhaps this will open up more "AutoTrain-style" routes for Amtrak. If it is going to take me 3-4 days to go down to Florida and another 3-4 to come back, putting the ol' Tesla on an autorack tacked on behind the Siemens Mobility Chargers and the passenger consist might be a viable option from more places than just Virginia. What's old is new again.
Getting this back to railroads, perhaps this will open up more "AutoTrain-style" routes for Amtrak.
If it is going to take me 3-4 days to go down to Florida and another 3-4 to come back, putting the ol' Tesla on an autorack tacked on behind the Siemens Mobility Chargers and the passenger consist might be a viable option from more places than just Virginia.
What's old is new again.
Nah. My 60 y. o. sister drove her Tesla 780 miles from NJ to Atlanta in 15 hours solo in one day. Most of her en route charging was done during "biology breaks."
kgbw49Getting this back to railroads, perhaps this will open up more "AutoTrain-style" routes for Amtrak. If it is going to take me 3-4 days to go down to Florida and another 3-4 to come back, putting the ol' Tesla on an autorack tacked on behind the Siemens Mobility Chargers and the passenger consist might be a viable option from more places than just Virginia. What's old is new again.
Has Amtrak instituted any handling restrictions on Tesla's and other EV's account of the difficulties in fighting Lithium battery fires?
A local road race track at present is prohibiting EV's from participating in any on track operation because of the fire danger and the lack of generally accepted methods to combat such fires.
I have my doubts about the security of moving a large number of electric cars together in one consist that would be subject to derailment away from effective and quick first response. At any 'economically feasible' vehicle density per car the result of one runaway thermal excursion might be dramatically expensive, far more than the sort of incident that killed off the private-company Auto-Train.
On the other hand -- I'd support the idea as long as it could maintain the end-to-end cost-competitive parity with driving, and considerably slower speed would do 'as well' as a trip with 20-80 recharges at battery-appropriate frequency.
NittanyLion...will balance out enough in the state's ledger that it isn't worth trying to work out.
Indeed. When I used to make trips to VA, I'd get there on one tank of fuel, so state tax-wise, PA, WV, and VA got zero dollars.
But, as you say, it all balances out. I occasionally filled up in PA as well.
Overmodeven to determine in-state/out-of-state from GPS/GIS data
This one is a total non-starter for a variety of reasons. I suspect that it will ultimately come down straight VMT without worrying about what state the miles were actually traveled in. Most trips occur within one state anyhow and I'd wager that most "I live in Virginia, but drove a little in Maryland/I live in Maryland, but drove a little in Virginia" will balance out enough in the state's ledger that it isn't worth trying to work out.
MidlandMikeRegarding tying in alternate energy into the grid, here is an NPR story on some of the problems encountered:
I've mentioned it before - here in northern New York, we're having the same problem. I drove by a new solar farm the other day - the wires to connect it to the grid are hanging limply, unconnected, from the pole.
Our regional landfill had the same problem when they wanted to connect their methane-fueled gensets to the grid a few years ago.
n012944And as discussions tend to do, the subject was changed by me to air conditioning affecting range on an IC auto. You can feel free to ignore it if you are that hung up on heat. We tend to not worry about such things in Florida.
Cool!
York1 John
Regarding tying in alternate energy into the grid, here is an NPR story on some of the problems encountered:
https://www.npr.org/2023/05/16/1176462647/green-energy-transmission-queue-power-grid-wind-solar
For those who might think NPR is some sort of government-socialist soundbox, they get about 14% of their funding from the feds and states. Mostly it's from individuals, corporations, and special interest groups (including conservative ones).
York1 Without rehashing all the cool comments, looking back at the top of this column, my first comment was about the range of an internal combustion vehicle compared to an EV when using a heater.
Without rehashing all the cool comments, looking back at the top of this column, my first comment was about the range of an internal combustion vehicle compared to an EV when using a heater.
Cool. And as discussions tend to do, the subject was changed by me to air conditioning affecting range on an IC auto. You can feel free to ignore it if you are that hung up on heat. We tend to not worry about such things in Florida.
York1 An internal combustion vehicle loses very little range when the heater is turned on. An EV loses a considerable amount of range when the heater is turned on, resistance heater or heat pump.
An internal combustion vehicle loses very little range when the heater is turned on. An EV loses a considerable amount of range when the heater is turned on, resistance heater or heat pump.
As per the cool article I linked 16% is not "considerable".
York1 I'm very happy for you that your car loses MPGs in the Florida heat, and that your V10 loses an even bigger percentage. Cool.
I'm very happy for you that your car loses MPGs in the Florida heat, and that your V10 loses an even bigger percentage. Cool.
It isn't just the Florida heat, just about any states heat will do it if you run the a/c. But I am glad you are happy.
York1 How much do your internal combustion vehicles lose with the heater on?
How much do your internal combustion vehicles lose with the heater on?
I don't know, I couldn't tell you the last time I used one. I get it, you want to show that IC vehicles are better. I am sure 100 plus years ago, buggy whip salesmen were doing the same thing. I am sure 80 years ago, Lima and Baldwin sales teams where doing the same thing with steam locomotives. Time marches on.
An "expensive model collector"
tree68 MidlandMike Home electric service and public chargers have meters, so they could collect the road taxes based on kw. Note that in J.Bishops' case, he's using his home solar to charge his EV - so it's not metered. And in the case of a home - how much of my lighting, etc, is subject to road tax? It would be virtually impossible to separate the two, unless the charger itself is metered separately. I would absolutely expect a public charger to include some form of road tax.
MidlandMike Home electric service and public chargers have meters, so they could collect the road taxes based on kw.
Home electric service and public chargers have meters, so they could collect the road taxes based on kw.
Note that in J.Bishops' case, he's using his home solar to charge his EV - so it's not metered. And in the case of a home - how much of my lighting, etc, is subject to road tax? It would be virtually impossible to separate the two, unless the charger itself is metered separately.
I would absolutely expect a public charger to include some form of road tax.
Yes, my assumption was that if the smart meter could not separate out the EV charge, then there would be a separate meter.
York1How much do your internal combustion vehicles lose with the heater on?
I'm reminded of something a number of landfills in this area are doing - capturing the methane created and burning it in gensets, then selling the power to the grid.
Something else some of them do - using the waste heat from the gensets, they air condition greenhouses. I've been told that some 20% of the hothouse tomatoes grown in NY state come from one such installation in the Buffalo area.
Back in the day, I've been told that travellers in high heat areas (ie, deserts) would run with their heater blasting to help cool the engine.
The railroads used steam to both heat and cool passenger cars.
Aside from the small amount of electricity required to run the blower, running the heater in an IC vehicle has zero effect on mileage.
I (J Bishop), agree that at some point, in fairness, EV's are going to have to be billed for using the state and federal roads that depend largely on gas taxes. Right now, those of us in ideal, sunny areas like California or Arizona, are getting a free ride. Here, in sunnny So. Cal, solar panels are everywhere. I have sons in Arizona, same there. Obviously, not all locations are so fortunate.
I have now had a Tesla for about a month. We have two other cars, but now drive them less. Our van costs more thean $70 to fill up. My English sports car costs about $50 (because it needs 100 octane gas). For the past month, we have not pulled into a gas station. The get up and go of the Tesla is better than anything I have ever driven.
Not likely I will every buy another car with an IC engine (unless I need to replace the van and no EV equivant is available).
Its just great not having to buy gas!
York1 Cool. You'll notice I wasn't talking about MPG or percentage. I was talking about range.
Cool. You'll notice I wasn't talking about MPG or percentage. I was talking about range.
I hope you know that a lower mpg will lower the range on a car, right?
York1 Take up your cool comments with Car and Driver.
Take up your cool comments with Car and Driver.
They most certainly are cool.
n012944 York1 n012944 Just like an ic car has reduced MPG when the AC is running. I'm talking about heat. Cool. I wasn't.
York1 n012944 Just like an ic car has reduced MPG when the AC is running. I'm talking about heat.
n012944 Just like an ic car has reduced MPG when the AC is running.
I'm talking about heat.
Cool. I wasn't.
Cool. I was when you answered my post.
n012944 York1 Running the AC with an internal combustion engine affects the range much less than running a heat pump in an EV. According to winter testing, the Tesla model S range drops 16% in cold weather. My daily driver IC car drops from 24 mpg on the highway to 20 mpg in Florida's summer. Around a 20% drop in range. The V10 goes from 18 mpg to 14 mph with the AC on. An even bigger percantage drop. https://www.carscoops.com/2023/02/tesla-model-s-sets-cold-weather-distance-record-in-norwegian-test/
York1 Running the AC with an internal combustion engine affects the range much less than running a heat pump in an EV.
Running the AC with an internal combustion engine affects the range much less than running a heat pump in an EV.
According to winter testing, the Tesla model S range drops 16% in cold weather. My daily driver IC car drops from 24 mpg on the highway to 20 mpg in Florida's summer. Around a 20% drop in range. The V10 goes from 18 mpg to 14 mph with the AC on. An even bigger percantage drop.
https://www.carscoops.com/2023/02/tesla-model-s-sets-cold-weather-distance-record-in-norwegian-test/
Cool. You'll notice I wasn't talking about MPG or percentage. I was talking about range. Take up your cool comments with Car and Driver.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.