Oh brother. Has the once-mighty Norfolk-Southern turned into a house of cards?
215 car trains with empty centerbeams in the middle is a recipe for problems.
JayBee 215 car trains with empty centerbeams in the middle is a recipe for problems.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. In my admittedly inexpert opinion 215 car trains are an insanity.
There are a couple of videos shot at the crossing on-line now. One starts after the whole thing started, but the other, from the other side of the train, appears to show a rolled steel car derailed as it went across the crossing.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Videos of the derailment taken from cars stopped at the crossing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZNNRdgnSE
https://www.youtube.com/embed/7jddyvXKgnU
Good news is that the classic NYC/CR era Type G signals didn't get taken out.
NS is definitely losing the PR war. While looking for this video clip I ran across some local newscast footage where they listed out the 5 derailments that NS has had in Ohio since last Fall.
tree68 Springfield, OH. Reportedly no hazmat. A fellow at the OH 41 crossing got part of the derailment on video. NS can't catch a break... https://www.whio.com/news/local/deputies-medics-respond-train-accident-springfield/KZUQMTBAKVD3NHMSCLICGXCGYE/ 39.90434 -83.73008
Springfield, OH. Reportedly no hazmat.
A fellow at the OH 41 crossing got part of the derailment on video.
NS can't catch a break...
https://www.whio.com/news/local/deputies-medics-respond-train-accident-springfield/KZUQMTBAKVD3NHMSCLICGXCGYE/
39.90434 -83.73008
If this trend of major derailments continues, the specter of a temporary involuntary cessation of operations may be invoked until they can demonstrate the capability of safe operations.
ns145 Videos of the derailment taken from cars stopped at the crossing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZNNRdgnSE
To JayBee's point which I think is the cause as well.
There's a longer version of this video on instagram which has better sound, and you can hear about 5-8 seconds before the derailment. A loud bang that sounds awfully similiar to severe slack action.
ns145Good news is that the classic NYC/CR era Type G signals didn't get taken out.
Hey, it's a miracle that storage facility wasn't taken out.
charlie hebdoIf this trend of major derailments continues, the specter of a temporary involuntary cessation of operations may be invoked until they can demonstrate the capability of safe operations.
While those two incidents were occurring, fifty trains a day passed the Deshler cameras without incident...
Meanwhile, not running will cause economic impacts that go far beyond that of the two derailments.
And it did look like there was some damage to the storage facility. Just a door or two, but it appeared it did get hit.
tree68And it did look like there was some damage to the storage facility. Just a door or two, but it appeared it did get hit.
A door or two they can live with, although it shouldn't have happened anyway. I'm sure they'll seek damages from NS but I'm also sure the owner of the place is offering a silent prayer of thanks, it could have been much worse.
tree68While those two incidents were occurring, fifty trains a day passed the Deshler cameras without incident...
So what is the threshold for strong actions to be taken or ordered?
charlie hebdoSo what is the threshold for strong actions to be taken or ordered?
Hard to say. Sometimes it's one event - Chatsworth led to an emergency order banning cell phone from locomotive cabs (now codified in RR rulebooks). Lac Megantic led to an EO about securing trains, also now codified in rulebooks.
I'm sure that all the railroads (and car owners) are looking at their defect detectors and car inspections after East Palestine. But their preventative measures are already in place - inadequate as they were in this particular case.
We don't know what caused the derailment at Springfield yet. If it's another failed bearing, you can be sure that there will be orders to inspect, etc. If it was something unrelated, you can chalk it up to another of the 1,000 derailments that occur each year.
I mentioned before that one measure for components in a number of industries is the MTBF, or mean time between failure. Someone mentioned earlier that the bearing in question was basically designed to outlive the axle it's mounted on. That's why it's call MEAN time - it's the average. Some fail earlier, some fail later.
Invoked by the same people that wouldn't allow a strike for a day because it would cause irreparable damage to the supply chain and economy?
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
zugmann charlie hebdo If this trend of major derailments continues, the specter of a temporary involuntary cessation of operations may be invoked until they can demonstrate the capability of safe operations. Invoked by the same people that wouldn't allow a strike for a day because it would cause irreparable damage to the supply chain and economy?
charlie hebdo If this trend of major derailments continues, the specter of a temporary involuntary cessation of operations may be invoked until they can demonstrate the capability of safe operations.
I bet there's 6 other Class One railroads that are glad that the public and the news media are focused on NS.
tree68I mentioned before that one measure for components in a number of industries is the MTBF, or mean time between failure. Someone mentioned earlier that the bearing in question was basically designed to outlive the axle it's mounted on. That's why it's call MEAN time - it's the average. Some fail earlier, some fail later.
What is an adequate mean [and yes, some of us understannd mean or median and standard deviation for that matter] in some situations is completely unacceptable in others. Context matters.
Flintlock76In my admittedly inexpert opinion 215 car trains are an insanity.
FWIW, I completely agree with you. Building trains that long are part of the strategy to maximize economic metrics (the "profit over safety" complaint some here seem so resistant to acknowledge as part of the problem)
And, IMO, it's an evolutionary process, if "some is good" then necessarily more must be better. (chain of compromises made in pursuit of profit, that is). We didn't get to this point overnight.
Just as a simple illustration, you start out with short trains easily supervised by humans riding in a caboose providing a watchfull eye, Trains get longer, line of sight becomes more challenging. IN THE PURSUIT OF EFFICIENCY, men are reduced and an array of new wonderful tech is devised to take their place. Creative minds push these efficiencies to (and beyond) their limits. That's where I think we are now, somebody got overly content that the tech being used was foolproof, and 215+ car trains just seemed like the "efficient" direction we needed to pursue. And we are getting feedback now that some of those assumptions were overly ambitious.
Personally, I think the sensors are going to need to be spaced closer together, additionally include some form of "trend analysis" to make informed decisions with the data collected, and perhaps include some sort of visual component too. Which no doubt will encounter resistance because people will have to be paid to monitor them.
Either that, or shorter trains, with an onboard safety officer riding in an observation car featuring a raised patform, at the rear of the train.
ns145 Videos of the derailment taken from cars stopped at the crossing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZNNRdgnSE https://www.youtube.com/embed/7jddyvXKgnU
All of us railfans need to take a very hard lesson from these 2 videos. Notice that both cars with cameras did not stop close to the stop line. Also as soon as derailment started they backed away. Guys stay away from the tracks either in cars or on foot. It can happen anytime of loose lading ( more likely ) or cars coming off the rail.
Euclid I would say that the narrative involves monster trains, ECP brakes, and other safety technology, particularly hotbox detectors.
The acrobats contorting to insist that the railroad did nothing wrong, how in the name of common sense can you have a train showering sparks for over 20 miles (the other accident) , and pretend nothing is wrong with that picture? "Fire hazard"?....hello?
And I'm not saying that from the perspective that the railroad should be punished. I'm just pointing out there should be little difficulty in finding a place to start with needed improvements to the status quo.
Convicted OnePersonally, I think the sensors are going to need to be spaced closer together, additionally include some form of "trend analysis" to make informed decisions with the data collected, and perhaps include some sort of visual component too. Which no doubt will encounter resistance because people will have to be paid to monitor them.
Detectors don't like it when you stop or go slow over them. That can limit placement. Seems like the technology needs improved a little in that regard. But I'm no maintainer.
Convicted OneThe acrobats contorting to insist that the railroad did nothing wrong, how in the name of common sense can you have a train showering sparks for over 20 miles (the other accident) , and pretend nothing is wrong with that picture? "Fire hazard"?....hello?
What acrobats?
Convicted One Euclid I would say that the narrative involves monster trains, ECP brakes, and other safety technology, particularly hotbox detectors. The acrobats contorting to insist that the railroad did nothing wrong, how in the name of common sense can you have a train showering sparks for over 20 miles (the other accident) , and pretend nothing is wrong with that picture? "Fire hazard"?....hello? And I'm not saying that from the perspective that the railroad should be punished. I'm just pointing out there should be little difficulty in finding a place to start with needed improvements to the status quo.
One can see some pretty nifty spins, even on here.
charlie hebdoOne can see some pretty nifty spins, even on here.
I also saw a lot of people promoting PSR back in the day, even on here.
tree68 JayBee 215 car trains with empty centerbeams in the middle is a recipe for problems. There are a couple of videos shot at the crossing on-line now. One starts after the whole thing started, but the other, from the other side of the train, appears to show a rolled steel car derailed as it went across the crossing.
I wonder if that covered steel car was empty. It seemed to buck up as it hit the asphalt.
One wonders if it was not derailed prior to that and was being dragged and then the wheels really bucked up when it hit the asphalt.
If you go back to that video and expand it to full screen, then hit "stop", you can advance the video almost frame by frame by clicking on the bar of the video with the red progress dot.
It definitely looks like those white coil cars were on the ground already, but the rear truck of the tank car in front of the centerbeam flat car looks weird as it enters the crossing and the centerbeam is "out of square" with the car behind it as it comes across the crossing also.
At 00:35 the second and third white coil cars are definitely on the ground before they hit the crossing.
Take a look and see what you think.
zugmann charlie hebdo One can see some pretty nifty spins, even on here. I also saw a lot of people promoting PSR back in the day, even on here.
charlie hebdo One can see some pretty nifty spins, even on here.
Yes, but they have no influence.
The GOP Senator Sullivan from Alaska said," "Well, I want to hear some of the issues that Sen. [Sherrod] Brown raised, and in particular some of the issues that related to the laying off of workers," Sullivan said. "It's not just going to be him. It's going to be government officials as well on what is happening."
While government might be slow, without its pressure, NS ain't gonna do diddly.
charlie hebdo So what is the threshold for strong actions to be taken or ordered? Hard to say. Sometimes it's one event - Chatsworth led to an emergency order banning cell phone from locomotive cabs (now codified in RR rulebooks). Lac Megantic led to an EO about securing trains, also now codified in rulebooks. I'm sure that all the railroads (and car owners) are looking at their defect detectors and car inspections after East Palestine. But their preventative measures are already in place - inadequate as they were in this particular case. We don't know what caused the derailment at Springfield yet. If it's another failed bearing, you can be sure that there will be orders to inspect, etc. If it was something unrelated, you can chalk it up to another of the 1,000 derailments that occur each year. I mentioned before that one measure for components in a number of industries is the MTBF, or mean time between failure. Someone mentioned earlier that the bearing in question was basically designed to outlive the axle it's mounted on. That's why it's call MEAN time - it's the average. Some fail earlier, some fail later.
charlie hebdo So what is the threshold for strong actions to be taken or ordered?
C'mon! We need a knee-jerk reaction and we need it now or we're going to lose our phoney-baloney jobs here gentlemen! Cue Blazing Saddles harumph scene...
zugmannWhat acrobats?
I really don't want to fingerpoint. You can go back and read through that other thread and fairly easily read the defensiveness of some. And being a railroad forum, that's completely understandable. If folks find comfort in asserting that NS did everything "expected" or required of it,..perhaps they should peel back an additional layer and contemplate maybe it's time to start expecting more...going forward. Originally there were another 2 paragraphs of rant on this post, but I thought the better, and deleted them. You're smart, Im sure you can interpret my meaning from whats here.
I don't know, but what I do know is that it was claimed that allowing Union employees to go on strike would cost the economy billions per day.
Would imposing a requirement that all hazmat lading be placed in the train within the first 20 cars following the locomotive, be a step in the right direction? (with buffer cars, of course) At least that would reduce the number of cars in front of the haz-mat that could contribute to this type of derailment?
Further I was pondering that if you have 15 haz mat cars included in a 220 car train, a catastrophic problem in any of the other 205 cars can potentially be a problem. If however you limit that train transporting those 15 haz mat cars to no more than 50 cars total, there are only 35 other cars in that train that could cause a problem....the odds are better.
These excess car trains may be a cause of various buff forces that can cause derailments. Can you even imagine the buff forces on rail lines that are hogback? Maybe time to limit buff forces on any train ? These empty lumber carriers are especially subject to derailing subject to buff forces. Maybe they should only ride on end of trains?
blue streak 1These excess car trains may be a cause of various buff forces that can cause derailments. Can you even imagine the buff forces on rail lines that are hogback? Maybe time to limit buff forces on any train ? These empty lumber carriers are especially subject to derailing subject to buff forces. Maybe they should only ride on end of trains?
I am kind of at a loss to explain how we got here because not too long ago I thought the future was the FEC strike breaker model of short and fast manifest trains with two crew members and no caboose. How in the heck did we get to slow but very long manifest trains.
Someone should do a study on this because I think the reduction in speed alone, not to mention all the maintenence and operational issues probably still favors short and fast trains as the FEC demonstrated in the 1960's. Also I would suspect three short .5 mile trains running at 70 mph beats the tails off one long train 1.5 mile train running at 40-45 mph.
CMStPnP Also I would suspect three short .5 mile trains running at 70 mph beats the tails off one long train 1.5 mile train running at 40-45 mph.
But that would require three crews, vs one. And therein lies the rub, as they say.
And, as I mentioned before - the bugaboo is at the terminals. Running shorter, faster trains just gets them to their hold out point faster.
Not to mention that there's not a lot of 70 MPH running here in the east. Forty MPH is more like it.
tree68 CMStPnP Also I would suspect three short .5 mile trains running at 70 mph beats the tails off one long train 1.5 mile train running at 40-45 mph. But that would require three crews, vs one. And therein lies the rub, as they say. And, as I mentioned before - the bugaboo is at the terminals. Running shorter, faster trains just gets them to their hold out point faster. Not to mention that there's not a lot of 70 MPH running here in the east. Forty MPH is more like it.
Not only would three 2500 foot trains require thee crews to operate them - they would each require six to nine miles of track space to operate on clear signals. The physical plant of a carrier has to be 'designed' to support the Operating Plan that the carrier intends to operate.
]-7500'->___Clear___|___Approach____|____Restricted Proceed or STOP___|
The above spacing would be required between each of the 2500 foot trains. Many carriers us a 'Advance Approach' indication to give additional waring that the next signal will likely be Approach. Signal spacing on Class 1 carriers is nominally 3 miles between signals.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
tree68And, as I mentioned before - the bugaboo is at the terminals. Running shorter, faster trains just gets them to their hold out point faster.
But shorter trains also can be yarded/departed quicker. So can lessen holdout times for other trains.
zugmann tree68 And, as I mentioned before - the bugaboo is at the terminals. Running shorter, faster trains just gets them to their hold out point faster. But shorter trains also can be yarded/departed quicker. So can lessen holdout times for other trains.
tree68 And, as I mentioned before - the bugaboo is at the terminals. Running shorter, faster trains just gets them to their hold out point faster.
The most insidious constraint on fluidity in the world of PSR operations is Crew Change Locations - especially on Single Track lines. If there is not a crew available for a train - from a Dispatching perspective, unless there is a passing siding of sufficient length to hold the train in the clear, you can't move that train beyond the last siding where it will clear so that one does not Lock Down the entire line. Remember at a Crew Change location, trains run in both (or more) directions through the Crew Change location. It is not unusual when there are crew shortages at a Crew Change location to have sidings blocked for 100 miles in each direction waiting on the avilability of crews.
Once you get into the holding trains out for the availability of a outbound crew, it then takes normally a minimum of two crews to move the train - one to move the train where it was held and went on the law to the crew change location and another to move it out of the crew change location.
One must remember, in the days before PSR, the carriers went through the era of 'Plant Rationalization', where all elements of the track structure and layout that weren't considered 'critical' to the operation in the 1980's & 90's were removed and sold for their scrap value.
blue streak 1 But conductors are still supposed to be outside watching a train go by in less than ideal spacing conditions. Everytime I see one of these derailment videos, I want to move another 30 feet from the track. ns145 Videos of the derailment taken from cars stopped at the crossing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZNNRdgnSE https://www.youtube.com/embed/7jddyvXKgnU All of us railfans need to take a very hard lesson from these 2 videos. Notice that both cars with cameras did not stop close to the stop line. Also as soon as derailment started they backed away. Guys stay away from the tracks either in cars or on foot. It can happen anytime of loose lading ( more likely ) or cars coming off the rail.
But conductors are still supposed to be outside watching a train go by in less than ideal spacing conditions. Everytime I see one of these derailment videos, I want to move another 30 feet from the track.
Big Cat All of us railfans need to take a very hard lesson from these 2 videos. Notice that both cars with cameras did not stop close to the stop line. Also as soon as derailment started they backed away. Guys stay away from the tracks either in cars or on foot. It can happen anytime of loose lading ( more likely ) or cars coming off the rail.
I really and truly believe that this is EXTREMELY good advice. To modify the old railroad rule to "expect a train on any track and any time", perhaps it's more like "expect a derailment on any track at any time".
It's kind of just a little bit like defensive driving. STAY SAFE ~ !
zugmann charlie hebdo One can see some pretty nifty spins, even on here.
Well, I'm gonna go out on a limb and put in a good word for PSR. I think it was a good idea when it first came out and IT is STILL a good idea today.
BUT ~ ! The thing is that the railroads are not really practicing PSR as it was originally intended to be done.
I thought the original idea was to run trains on time, everyday on a tight schedule whether there were only 15 cars or 150. That tended to allow crews to get home on time to their originating terminal. This is NOT what's happening now.
It's all about 200+ car trains to cut costs. The Wall Street Journal had an article late last week that Harris was returning to the CNR. He wants to emphasize running shorter trains ON TIME everyday. Wasn't this what "PSR" was originally supposed to be all about?
That's not what's happening anymore. One guy in this thread mentioned that running a 215 car train is insane. Think about this: When I was a small child the average freight car was around 40 feet. Today it's closer or even more than 60 feet.
So, how long would this train have been in equivalent 40-ft cars in, say, 1958? 300 cars? 350 ?
YIKES ~ !
Fred M CainI thought the original idea was to run trains on time, everyday on a tight schedule whether there were only 15 cars or 150. That tended to allow crews to get home on time to their originating terminal. This is NOT what's happening now.
I have an October, 1963 New York Central ETT. Prominently displayed on the back cover is a line chart entitled, "Operation Sunset, Protected Connections Pay Off - Let's Roll As Advertised."
The chart includes times.
Precision Scheduled Railroading. The way it should be - and was, in 1963 on the NYC.
Fred M Cain zugmann charlie hebdo One can see some pretty nifty spins, even on here. Well, I'm gonna go out on a limb and put in a good word for PSR. I think it was a good idea when it first came out and IT is STILL a good idea today. BUT ~ ! The thing is that the railroads are not really practicing PSR as it was originally intended to be done. I thought the original idea was to run trains on time, everyday on a tight schedule whether there were only 15 cars or 150. That tended to allow crews to get home on time to their originating terminal. This is NOT what's happening now. It's all about 200+ car trains to cut costs. The Wall Street Journal had an article late last week that Harris was returning to the CNR. He wants to emphasize running shorter trains ON TIME everyday. Wasn't this what "PSR" was originally supposed to be all about? That's not what's happening anymore. One guy in this thread mentioned that running a 215 car train is insane. Think about this: When I was a small child the average freight car was around 40 feet. Today it's closer or even more than 60 feet. So, how long would this train have been in equivalent 40-ft cars in, say, 1958? 300 cars? 350 ? YIKES ~ !
PSR as implemented by EHH on CSX was nothing more than Buzzword BS.
At the time I retired, three months before EHH's arrival, CSX was operating a Scheduled merchandise freight network over its system and measuring the adherence to that schedule both on the basis of train operation as well as car scheduling making the right trains On Time. Three months later EHH arrived on the property and all the scheduling was thrown out with yesterday's bath water, as well as many of the facilities and employees that were used to operate that network. Six years later CSX is still struggling.
So Balt, what you seem to be saying that under EHH PSR was neither Precise, nor Scheduled, nor really even Railroading, but rather "Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash". If so, from what I see, I would agree.
chutton01So Balt, what you seem to be saying that under EHH PSR was neither Precise, nor Scheduled, nor really even Railroading, but rather "Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash". If so, from what I see, I would agree.
Bingo, Bango, Bongo! We have a winner!
Perhaps the most recognized of the "short/fast" carriers was Rio Grande when 4000 tons made a train (on some routes) - but that was largely a function of geography and density. The natural low resistance of steel wheel on steel rail tends toward longer consists and with the advent of DPU locomotive consists greater train length has been made much more practicable.
Every economy over the past, say, 40 years has significantly affected operating efficiency. Elimination of the caboose and crew consist reductions increased the amount of time necessary to inspect trains, fix mechanical problems and make set outs and pick ups. Yard capacity was affected by remote control crews slowing the processing of traffic, backing up onto the mainline, draining the crew base. The experiential base was basically disdained and discarded through buyouts so that now one wonders what is left. The days when just about any delay could be resolved within twenty minutes or so are long gone.
Anyone remotely familiar with operations knew PSR was an oxymoron. There are just too many variables in a large-scale operation for any approximation of "precision" other than upon very broad precepts. PSR is just an innocuous sounding phrase for cashing-in of assets - be it employees, physical plant or ability to sustain events and what used to be called surge capacity. Some carriers have apparently reached the point of no return in this arena - as evidenced by UP's "We Can Embargo It" philosophy. The trend seems to be toward transportation entropy as dictated by the eternal buck. The only resistance to this trend, I guess, is regulation; and that is too often a function of reaction to disasters - of one kind or another.
PennsyBoomerPerhaps the most recognized of the "short/fast" carriers was Rio Grande when 4000 tons made a train (on some routes) - but that was largely a function of geography and density. The natural low resistance of steel wheel on steel rail tends toward longer consists and with the advent of DPU locomotive consists greater train length has been made much more practicable. Every economy over the past, say, 40 years has significantly affected operating efficiency. Elimination of the caboose and crew consist reductions increased the amount of time necessary to inspect trains, fix mechanical problems and make set outs and pick ups. Yard capacity was affected by remote control crews slowing the processing of traffic, backing up onto the mainline, draining the crew base. The experiential base was basically disdained and discarded through buyouts so that now one wonders what is left. The days when just about any delay could be resolved within twenty minutes or so are long gone. Anyone remotely familiar with operations knew PSR was an oxymoron. There are just too many variables in a large-scale operation for any approximation of "precision" other than upon very broad precepts. PSR is just an innocuous sounding phrase for cashing-in of assets - be it employees, physical plant or ability to sustain events and what used to be called surge capacity. Some carriers have apparently reached the point of no return in this arena - as evidenced by UP's "We Can Embargo It" philosophy. The trend seems to be toward transportation entropy as dictated by the eternal buck. The only resistance to this trend, I guess, is regulation; and that is too often a function of reaction to disasters - of one kind or another.
While we can complain about train size - railroads as a transportation entity, operate in a world that says if a little is good, more is better, and a lot more is a lot better.
Truckers every year lobby the various state legislatures to increase both the weight and length of trucks on the highways. I suspect pipelines, when they feel the need, increase either the size or pressures that the lines operate at. Ocean shipping has seen vessels move from the size of the Liberth ships that won WW II and formed the basis of the after war merchant shipping fleets of many seafaring countries. Nowadays the oceans are populated with container ships hauling 24K TEU's and ULCC tankers hauling millions of gallons of oil.
All modes of transportation have accidents - accidents that don't do humanity or the enviornment any good. Such is the price of living in the 21st Century's industrialized world economy.
BaltACD Ocean shipping has seen vessels move from the size of the Liberth ships that won WW II and formed the basis of the after war merchant shipping fleets of many seafaring countries.
The Great Lakes have seen that as well. There are a number of "footers" (1,000 feet and longer) and they are mainly constrained by the Soo Locks, which can only handle slightly over that. I believe the longest ship on the lakes right now is 1,014 feet.
Smaller ships are getting fewer and fewer.
Salties are limited to the ~700 feet that can be handled by the St Lawrence Seaway locks and the Welland Canal.
Parts of PSR is, and always was, the way railroads did things. Other things not so much.
The "scheduled" part is not about train schedules. It's about scheduling cars, their trip plans and connections within the network. When we first got deep into PSR, they came out and said we don't care about trains, only cars. (That kind of thinking fell by the wayside. Someone must have realized that cars move in trains.)
Another piece of PSR is to have the same number, and as few as possible, in each direction every day. Move cars that move in irregular unit trains into the manifest network as much as possible. Once "balance" has been achieved, reduce "excess" assets, mothball or retire equipment and facilities - furlough employees. Don't consider that external factors might upset the balance. Don't consider that new business opprotunities might come along.
After all that, then the PSR proponents say the railroads can pivot to growth. Some that have actually have started to regrow their business have had to spend money to rebuild what was cut or on additional capacity projects that had been shelved.
Jeff
This subject is as hot as an EV battery fire...
BaltACD I suspect pipelines, when they feel the need, increase either the size or pressures that the lines operate at.
I suspect pipelines, when they feel the need, increase either the size or pressures that the lines operate at.
Increasing the size of a pipeline is a rather expensive proposition as it involves digging up the old pipeline which is likely on a shared ROW. Pipelines as do railroads have problems with encroach on the ROW, though tends to be worse with pipelines as the pipes are usually out of sight.
IIRC, pipelines are typically limited to 60 to 70% of yield strength in rural areas and 50% in populated areas. There was work being on increasing allowable pressure, but the El Paso pipeline blast circa 2000 put an end to that effort. The PG&E pipeline blast would likely have rolled back the increase if it had gone through.
PennsyBoomer Perhaps the most recognized of the "short/fast" carriers was Rio Grande when 4000 tons made a train (on some routes) - but that was largely a function of geography and density. The natural low resistance of steel wheel on steel rail tends toward longer consists and with the advent of DPU locomotive consists greater train length has been made much more practicable. Every economy over the past, say, 40 years has significantly affected operating efficiency. Elimination of the caboose and crew consist reductions increased the amount of time necessary to inspect trains, fix mechanical problems and make set outs and pick ups. Yard capacity was affected by remote control crews slowing the processing of traffic, backing up onto the mainline, draining the crew base. The experiential base was basically disdained and discarded through buyouts so that now one wonders what is left. The days when just about any delay could be resolved within twenty minutes or so are long gone. Anyone remotely familiar with operations knew PSR was an oxymoron. There are just too many variables in a large-scale operation for any approximation of "precision" other than upon very broad precepts. PSR is just an innocuous sounding phrase for cashing-in of assets - be it employees, physical plant or ability to sustain events and what used to be called surge capacity. Some carriers have apparently reached the point of no return in this arena - as evidenced by UP's "We Can Embargo It" philosophy. The trend seems to be toward transportation entropy as dictated by the eternal buck. The only resistance to this trend, I guess, is regulation; and that is too often a function of reaction to disasters - of one kind or another.
The Union Pacific of the 1970s was also known for running short fast trains with enormous power on the point. This seemed somewhat out of step with the times given the oil crisis of 1973 and the 55 mph speed limit imposed on interstates to conserve oil.
For NS, the bad news keeps on coming. This morning in Cleveland a dump truck collided with a locomotive on the Cleveland-Cliffs property and the NS conductor was killed.
https://www.news5cleveland.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/norfolk-southern-train-collides-with-dump-truck-kills-1
tree68 BaltACD Ocean shipping has seen vessels move from the size of the Liberth ships that won WW II and formed the basis of the after war merchant shipping fleets of many seafaring countries. The Great Lakes have seen that as well. There are a number of "footers" (1,000 feet and longer) and they are mainly constrained by the Soo Locks, which can only handle slightly over that. I believe the longest ship on the lakes right now is 1,014 feet. Smaller ships are getting fewer and fewer. Salties are limited to the ~700 feet that can be handled by the St Lawrence Seaway locks and the Welland Canal.
chutton01 So Balt, what you seem to be saying that under EHH PSR was neither Precise, nor Scheduled, nor really even Railroading, but rather "Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash". If so, from what I see, I would agree.
As someone who lived and worked through EHH's PSR at CSX, I disagree. Had he lived to see it through, I think it would have been a decent operation. Despite Balts claims, it was a scheduled railroad. One of the first things EHH did was to get rid of the the stupid "28 hour day" stupidity schedule that CSX was using, and run manifests on true schedule. There was a real push to run trains and time, pushing late trains to get them to destination quickly. It was after his death, that we got PSR on a budget, and it showed in the quality of operation.
In the end, people don't like having to do more with less, and there was a lot of pushback from that.
An "expensive model collector"
n012944In the end, people don't like having to do more with less, and there was a lot of pushback from that.
Pesky things like engines, cars, maintenance, inspectors.
I'll give you that the original PSR ideals have gotten bastardazied, but I also didn't see too much vocal opposition from PSR proponents.
Fred M Cain Is there a connection here?
n012944 Fred M Cain Is there a connection here? No.
Is there a connection here? No.
Fred M Cain Are the brakes, cylinders and wheel bearings getting a thorough inspection?
Remember when auto chassis had zerks, and a periodic "chassis lube" was standard fare? I recall taking my car in for work about 30 years ago, insisting that they include a chassis lube as part of the work list, and the guy just laughed at me.
In view of the claims made by people here that the bearings in question are built to have a longer service life than the axels they are mounted to, I'd anticipate that thourough, hands-on bearing inspection likely isn't real high on anyone's list. At least not until they report as hot to some detector.
My experience with permanently sealed bearings is that they are amazingly durable, unless there is a flaw built into the seal, permitting contamination to find it's way in. Visual inspection at the factory doesn't always catch that.
And considering the environment that rail car axels operate in, I'd guess that contamination is a risk.
Fred M CainHaving equipment covered with that much graffitti is no way to gain public confidence.
Fred's got a bit of a point, not a perfect point but one worth thinking about. Public perception is a powerful thing. Those of us with a bit of knowledge about railroads know perfectly well that graffitti is sometimes unavoidable, but to Joe or Joan Average sitting at a grade crossing waiting impatiently for that THING that looks like a slum on wheels to get out of the way? It's understandable for them to wonder "What else is that railroad doing wrong?" Especially in the light of current events. And if that train's a monster train that keeps them waiting longer than they think they should? Well then...
Fred M Cain n012944 Fred M Cain Is there a connection here? No. Sorry, but your "no" is not convincing. Someone needs to look into this. At the very least, re-read my last paragraph. It makes the entire industry look bad and it's probably disquieting to the general public at large. Surely no way to build confidence especially after some high-profile derailments. Having equipment covered with that much graffitti is no way to gain public confidence.
I agree, but there's not much the railroads can do about it.. It's worse in Europe where even the passenger trains are tagged. In Naples Italy last summer my wife and I got on a train with "FRail written" (use your imagination) clear across the front of the engine (in English too!). Somehow that didn't equate to "unsafe" in my mind.. perhaps it would have 20 or 30 years ago.
There's just no way the railroads can keep the graffiti off. But I don't think the tagging indicates that the equipment doesn't get inspected. I've also never felt particularly unsafe on the NYC subway system although it looks like an awful mess (although better than it was years ago).
Ulrich Fred M Cain n012944 Fred M Cain Is there a connection here? No. Sorry, but your "no" is not convincing. Someone needs to look into this. At the very least, re-read my last paragraph. It makes the entire industry look bad and it's probably disquieting to the general public at large. Surely no way to build confidence especially after some high-profile derailments. Having equipment covered with that much graffitti is no way to gain public confidence. I agree, but there's not much the railroads can do about it.. It's worse in Europe where even the passenger trains are tagged. In Naples Italy last summer my wife and I got on a train with "FRail written" (use your imagination) clear across the front of the engine (in English too!). There's just no way the railroads can keep the graffiti off. But I don't think the tagging indicates that the equipment doesn't get inspected.
I agree, but there's not much the railroads can do about it.. It's worse in Europe where even the passenger trains are tagged. In Naples Italy last summer my wife and I got on a train with "FRail written" (use your imagination) clear across the front of the engine (in English too!).
There's just no way the railroads can keep the graffiti off. But I don't think the tagging indicates that the equipment doesn't get inspected.
Several years ago I saw a YouTube video of a European passenger train being 'tagged' at a outlying station passenger stop in less than three minutes with crew and passengers on board. The 'taggers' were a group of 10 to 12 individuals working in concert with each other and knew what they were trying to accomplish. Rattle cans in the hands of those that know how to use them can cover a lot of area, quickly.
BaltACD Rattle cans in the hands of those that know how to use them can cover a lot of area, quickly.
Hmm, maybe the railroads need designated marksmen armed with .22's to shoot the cans out of the hands of the taggers? And causing the paint to splatter all over them?
I know, I know, a stupid unworkable solution. But isn't it fun to think about?
Flintlock76Hmm, maybe the railroads need designated marksmen armed with .22's to shoot the cans out of the hands of the taggers? And causing the paint to splatter all over them? I know, I know, a stupid unworkable solution. But isn't it fun to think about?
Paintballs and video - and a reception party to greet them as they leave the property...
Where's that "smite" cartoon when you need it?
Fred M Cain n012944 Fred M Cain Is there a connection here? No. Sorry, but your "no" is not convincing.
Fred M Cain Someone needs to look into this.
No, they don't.
Fred M Cain At the very least, re-read my last paragraph. It makes the entire industry look bad and it's probably disquieting to the general public at large. Surely no way to build confidence especially after some high-profile derailments. Having equipment covered with that much graffitti is no way to gain public confidence.
At the very least, re-read my last paragraph. It makes the entire industry look bad and it's probably disquieting to the general public at large. Surely no way to build confidence especially after some high-profile derailments.
I doubt the railroads care. Paint added to the outside of the car has nothing to do with inspections on the important parts of the car.
How do you propose to keep the cars graffiti-free once you have repainted them? They're just going to end up going back to the same places where they first got tagged.....
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
SD70DudeHow do you propose to keep the cars graffiti-free once you have repainted them? They're just going to end up going back to the same places where they first got tagged.....
every car will have a caboose coupled to it.
Remember when auto chassis had zerks,
zugmann SD70Dude How do you propose to keep the cars graffiti-free once you have repainted them? They're just going to end up going back to the same places where they first got tagged..... every car will have a caboose coupled to it.
SD70Dude How do you propose to keep the cars graffiti-free once you have repainted them? They're just going to end up going back to the same places where they first got tagged.....
Better put a marksman in each one along with the conductor.
chutton01 Remember when auto chassis had zerks, Well, no, since I never saw that word till 5 minutes ago as of this writing. Grease fittings, OTOH, I have heard of and have used them (the fittings) in the past. Still have a grease gun somewhere in the garage, haven't used for decades.Anyway, i've made no secret I live in the NY area, and often did take NYC Transit in the 1980s (and 90s). It is true that graffitti was fairly common ata the beginning of that period, but a concerted effort of policing the yards/stations along with taking trains out to remove the graffitti before returning them to service (takes away the 'glory' of your artwork boldly travelling the lines) made a significant effect on said graffitti (and scratchfitti of the windows) albiet varying a bit depending on how seriously such efforts were maintained (it fluctuated depending on adminstrations and finances). Returning to freight railroads, I mentioned in some previous thread I was revieing many photographs (a hundred+) of freight cars I took in the 1990s/very early 2000's in locations like Newark, Patterson, Irvington, Long Island City, and so on, and contrary to my memory those feight cars were fairly clear of graffitti - yes there was a handful of tags, but even large light grey covered hoppers, yellow UPFE reefers and high-side gondola which nowadays would scream out 'mural bait' were not tagged. DId the railroads as well as private car owners/leasers just give up? Is security just a nice-to-have (as exemplified by that Los Angeles IM corridor littered with the remements of looted containers on IM trains)? Yeah, 2 decades is a long time...but not that long in the big scheme of things.
Well, no, since I never saw that word till 5 minutes ago as of this writing. Grease fittings, OTOH, I have heard of and have used them (the fittings) in the past. Still have a grease gun somewhere in the garage, haven't used for decades.Anyway, i've made no secret I live in the NY area, and often did take NYC Transit in the 1980s (and 90s). It is true that graffitti was fairly common ata the beginning of that period, but a concerted effort of policing the yards/stations along with taking trains out to remove the graffitti before returning them to service (takes away the 'glory' of your artwork boldly travelling the lines) made a significant effect on said graffitti (and scratchfitti of the windows) albiet varying a bit depending on how seriously such efforts were maintained (it fluctuated depending on adminstrations and finances). Returning to freight railroads, I mentioned in some previous thread I was revieing many photographs (a hundred+) of freight cars I took in the 1990s/very early 2000's in locations like Newark, Patterson, Irvington, Long Island City, and so on, and contrary to my memory those feight cars were fairly clear of graffitti - yes there was a handful of tags, but even large light grey covered hoppers, yellow UPFE reefers and high-side gondola which nowadays would scream out 'mural bait' were not tagged. DId the railroads as well as private car owners/leasers just give up? Is security just a nice-to-have (as exemplified by that Los Angeles IM corridor littered with the remements of looted containers on IM trains)? Yeah, 2 decades is a long time...but not that long in the big scheme of things.
Yes, tagging of rail equipment really only became prolific after 2000. Before the turn of the century there was very little of it... even as late as 1999.
The railroads are in a tough spot.. clearly tresspassing on railroad property is a common everyday occurrence everywhere. Yet, an injury (drunk lady gets hit by train while sitting on a rail) results in a huge $557 million dollar settlement against the railroad.
UlrichYes, tagging of rail equipment really only became prolific after 2000. Before the turn of the century there was very little of it... even as late as 1999. The railroads are in a tough spot.. clearly tresspassing on railroad property is a common everyday occurrence everywhere. Yet, an injury (drunk lady gets hit by train while sitting on a rail) results in a huge $557 million dollar settlement against the railroad.
Cars spend a significant amount of time OFF railroad property. On the property of the shippers and consignees - for day(s) at a time.
One of the points of the M-942 greased package bearing design, as I recall, was that it would NOT be fitted with a zerk or any other sort of field-supplied lubricant.
Too many contaminants that can get in; too many ways for the little ball head to break off and leave a channel into the bearing.
Better seal design is where to put your effort.
Overmod that it would NOT be fitted with a zerk or any other sort of field-supplied lubricant. Too many contaminants that can get in; too many ways for the little ball head to break off and leave a channel into the bearing. Better seal design is where to put your effort.
Completely agree. I was just trying to point out that in the absence of fittings, there really isn't a lot of periodic maintenance to do (or miss) on a sealed bearing. Look for looseness, look for leaks, look for discoloration...that's about it.
Notwithstanding that, the integrity of the seal is a point of vulnerability, right off the factory floor. Not for all units produced, just the rare one where a flaw finds it's way into the process.
Remember - the desired level of required maintenance among the railroads is - ZERO
"If the railroads and other car owners cannot manage to keep the graffiti cleaned off the equipment and keep it painted, what else are they missing?"
Fred, this really sounds like apples and oranges. Unless you run a cut of cars through some sort of chemical paint wash every time they are pulled, the problem is nearly intractable. It is a visual depiction of the state of society that seems to accept such behavior. Moreover, graffiti has its fans and a lot of rolling stock has been rendered a blank canvas with little more than a reporting mark. There is no more correlation between graffiti and mechanical condition than there is that grime on an auto is indication the tires are going flat or the trasnsmission is busted.
Not a popular or "realistic" thought, but to me graffiti reveals poor use of the asset. Also no pride in the effort. Sad.
Won't bother the corporate weasels keeping the wall street trash happy and demanding ever larger returns. Good corporate citizens are becoming hard to find these days.
Diesel- fried chicken guy's current project is being threatened by the NS mess even though they had nothing to do with it and are far away. The chicken littles of the world, irrational and uninformed as they are, are exploding in number and being stirred-up by the wackos in the yellow press.
PennsyBoomerThere is no more correlation between graffiti and mechanical condition than there is that grime on an auto is indication the tires are going flat or the trasnsmission is busted.
You're dead on. All this stuff about "what else did they miss" and "it shows no pride" is complete nonsense. All it does demonstrate is that the typical freightcar spends much of its life outside of a secured area. Locomotives spend, on average, more of their idle time in more secure areas and they're less likely to be tagged. Amtrak equipment spends more of its idle time in secure areas and I'm not sure I've ever seen one tagged. WMATA, MARC, and VRE don't get tagged because they're stored behind fences. That's it. That's all it is.
mudchickenWon't bother the corporate weasels keeping the wall street trash happy and demanding ever larger returns.
Reminds me of a quote from a CSX official I read in "Trains" a while back:
"Oh, we don't mind the graffiti on the cars, it saves US the trouble of painting them!"
Whether he was joking or not the article didn't say, but honestly I wasn't surprised by it.
Fred M CainThink about this for a moment: If the railroads and other car owners cannot manage to keep the graffiti cleaned off the equipment and keep it painted, what else are they missing? Are the brakes, cylinders and wheel bearings getting a thorough inspection?
Would you prefer they spend time cleaning graffiti off or doinga safety inspection?
Overmod One of the points of the M-942 greased package bearing design, as I recall, was that it would NOT be fitted with a zerk or any other sort of field-supplied lubricant. Too many contaminants that can get in; too many ways for the little ball head to break off and leave a channel into the bearing. Better seal design is where to put your effort.
Agreed. I was told by Timken reps that having a zerk invites over-lubrication which is a bad thing too. It causes seal leakage which can get the bearing pulled for a bad seal when there is nothing wrong with it. In the mid-80's they were promoting the "NFL" bearing - no field lubrication.
Dave
Well, here we go again ~ ! Still another one bites the dust ~ ! This looks like it happened yesterday in Verdigris OK, where ever the heck that is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD6T68tPh04
It kinda appeared to me like the rear truck on the bulkhead flat car was already running on the ties when it hit the asphalt at the grade crossing. The shock looked like it ripped the whole truck off its bolster then in turn ripped the lead truck off on the tank car behind it.
SHEESH ~ ! I've said it before but it bears repeating. There's an awful lot of stuff that I sharply disagree with Pete Buttigieg on but I think he's right that this seems to be happening far too often.
<EDIT> Actually, I would like to revise what I stated above. Watching the video a second time, it appears as though the lead truck on the tank was already on the ground as well.
I wonder, could a technology possibly be developed that would cause a train to go into emergency as soon as a wheel would come off the rail head? As it stands now, a train will not go into emergency until the brake line is severed (or, unless a crew member "dumps the air").
Man, I haven't seen a frequency of derailments like this since I was watching a friends HO set when I was ten years old! That made me stick with O Gauge from that day to this, and it's almost 60 years!
Flintlock76 Man, I haven't seen a frequency of derailments like this since I was watching a friends HO set when I was ten years old! That made me stick with O Gauge from that day to this, and it's almost 60 years!
Yeah, I've always been partial to "O" gauge as well. Although I didn't necessarily notice fewer derailments with it, I just always liked the larger size of the equipment.
Unfortunately, the prices are also a helluva lot bigger too ~ !
Fred M CainUnfortunately, the prices are also a helluva lot bigger too ~ !
On a lot of the new stuff, sure. But there's some great deals out there now on Lionel Post-Wars, MPC and Kughn Era products! Woo-hoo!
Fred M CainI wonder, could a technology possibly be developed that would cause a train to go into emergency as soon as a wheel would come off the rail head?
I related elsewhere the story (from Trains? Classic Trains?) of a situation where a truck derailed, but everything remained in line otherwise, rolling merrily down the railroad. Eventually the truck re-railed itself, so all appeared normal when the train reached its next destination.
Except the damage done to trackside equipment (junction boxes, etc) while it was derailed. Raised Cain with the dispatcher's display, too.
I would suppose it would be possible to sense such a misalignment, but a dragging equipment detector would also likely alert.
The crossing seemed to be an issue in the second derailment in this series as well.
Fred M Cain Well, here we go again ~ ! Still another one bites the dust ~ ! This looks like it happened yesterday in Verdigris OK, where ever the heck that is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yD6T68tPh04 It kinda appeared to me like the rear truck on the bulkhead flat car was already running on the ties when it hit the asphalt at the grade crossing. The shock looked like it ripped the whole truck off its bolster then in turn ripped the lead truck off on the tank car behind it. SHEESH ~ ! I've said it before but it bears repeating. There's an awful lot of stuff that I sharply disagree with Pete Buttigieg on but I think he's right that this seems to be happening far too often. <EDIT> Actually, I would like to revise what I stated above. Watching the video a second time, it appears as though the lead truck on the tank was already on the ground as well. I wonder, could a technology possibly be developed that would cause a train to go into emergency as soon as a wheel would come off the rail head? As it stands now, a train will not go into emergency until the brake line is severed (or, unless a crew member "dumps the air").
That second car is not a tank car. It's a coil steel car. What makes it look like a tank is the cover for the load.
So I am wondering whether the apparent increase in derailments is more likely that lots of people are suddenly taking videos of trains given the recent publicity. It's really bad press - like the wreck of the Penn Central all over, although I doubt track conditions are the main culprits. Interesting video, however, that makes one want to stop way back from a crossing.
PennsyBoomerSo I am wondering whether the apparent increase in derailments is more likely that lots of people are suddenly taking videos of trains given the recent publicity. It's really bad press - like the wreck of the Penn Central all over, although I doubt track conditions are the main culprits. Interesting video, however, that makes one want to stop way back from a crossing.
Feature it is a combination of things - more people have dash cameras in their cars. Nearly everyone has a video capable cell phone and can take pictures even if they don't have a dash cam.
If there are 1000 'reportable' derailments per year, then that means there will be in the neighborhood of 3 derailments per day throughout the year. 90% of the 'reportable' derailments will never make the media - however, sprinkle a little HAZMAT and incidents in public locations and you have what we have today.
Fred M CainI wonder, could a technology possibly be developed that would cause a train to go into emergency as soon as a wheel would come off the rail head? As it stands now, a train will not go into emergency until the brake line is severed (or, unless a crew member "dumps the air").
Even moreso the many railfans who will shoot video of a train at a crossing because it's a train.
And, of course, there are the bragging rights - "look what I saw!"
And that selfsame video getting sent to media outlets which gladly show it on an endless loop. Especially if something is burning.
It's not unusual to see a number of derailments "caught on camera" every year on railfan pages.
Several years ago a derailment was caught on (I think) the Kingston Sub across the river from me. I don't think anything ever turned over, but there was lots of dust and a railfan wondering if he should maybe move sooner rather than later. He wasn't really too close in the first place... The only reason the derailment made the news was because said fan was taking video...
Euclid Fred M Cain I wonder, could a technology possibly be developed that would cause a train to go into emergency as soon as a wheel would come off the rail head? As it stands now, a train will not go into emergency until the brake line is severed (or, unless a crew member "dumps the air"). Here is a derailment near Maryville, Tennessee in 2015, in which a derailed-dragging car ran for nine miles without being seen by the crew. News article: https://www.knoxnews.com/story/news/local/2017/11/02/2015-csx-train-derailment-maryville-cause-undetermined-after-investigation/824510001/ Official report: https://railroads.dot.gov/sites/fra.dot.gov/files/fra_net/17517/Maryville%20TN%20Derailment%20Summary%20Report.pdf This involved hazardous acrylonitrile, a hotbox detector, and a failed bearing that burned off an axle. In general railroad practice, there are derailment detectors that are mounted on the railcars. I recall threads about them in the past. I don’t think they are used in this country. I am not sure where their development and use stands at this time. But they could prevent a derail-dragging car from starting a parting and jacknifing pileup. A dragging-derailed car phase can precede a pileup. I wonder if such a phase occurred with the East Palestine derailment. I don't know if the NS would have offered such information, and I doubt any bystanders or media would have been able to detect such a detail. It would have to have existed in the form of busted up track behind the actual pilekup in order for anyone to have seen it.
Fred M Cain I wonder, could a technology possibly be developed that would cause a train to go into emergency as soon as a wheel would come off the rail head? As it stands now, a train will not go into emergency until the brake line is severed (or, unless a crew member "dumps the air").
Can't speak to other carriers. On CSX most, if not all, Hot Box Detectors were paired with Dragging Equipment detectors.
My 2008 NS ETT for the Pittsburgh Division indicates that there is (was) a Dragging Equipment Detector at mile PC 60.8 Columbiana - the detector PRIOR to East Palestine.
PennsyBoomer So I am wondering whether the apparent increase in derailments is more likely that lots of people are suddenly taking videos of trains given the recent publicity. It's really bad press - like the wreck of the Penn Central all over, although I doubt track conditions are the main culprits. Interesting video, however, that makes one want to stop way back from a crossing.
Even without live video of the derailment, wrecks like East Palestine will surely get the attention of the Public as well as the regulators who will see it themselves as well as hear it from the Public. In that context, the vivid up close videos of trains derailing at speed right before your eyes at grade crossings will be powerful medicine for the various safety-based agendas. Such videos are a vivid call to action to solve a problem.
Trains operating at Maximum allowable speed - no matter if they are a large train or a small train - are not able to stop the train within the range of discernable vision.
EuclidRailroad union advocacy has taken a strong position against monster trains, and it says that we are seeing more train derailments because monster trains are more likely to derail due to them having excess in-train forces that cause derailments. They also say monster trains cannot stop as fast as non-monster trains. Safety is always the best way to advance an agenda. In my opinion, the agenda here is that monster trains fundamentally reduce labor. So the pro-safety angle is naturally attached to the cause, which is a big concern for Labor.
So then, are you saying that "monster" trains are evidence of the railroads prioritizing economics over safety?
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Convicted OneSo then, are you saying that "monster" trains are evidence of the railroads prioritizing economics over safety?
I wouldn't say they're doing that deliberately, no-one wants deaths, injuries, or the carnage that wrecks cause. But they do seem to be prioritizing economics over everything else without thinking of the results of doing so.
As they saying goes, "You pay now or you pay later, one way or another."
In my admittedly inexpert opinion it would make more sense and be cheaper in the long run to run shorter more easily inspected and handled trains and pay the crews to run them than it would be to pay millions for the clean-up, damages, lawsuits, and rotten PR you'd get with monster train wrecks.
Flintlock76 deliberately,
Lot of gray area there, subject to various interpretation.
Incidentally, many of these authors also cite the lack of ECP brakes as something that makes monster trains more dangerous. They criticize the existing air brakes as being outmoded because they date back to the 1800s.
I have not seen the evidence or documentation that proves the monster trains have greater in-train forces or require more stopping distance than non-monster trains. I don't know how to draw conclusions about that matter. It would be very easy to convince an outsider that the monster trains take longer to stop because they are longer, and thus heavier.
But, I see that they also have the same braking effort on each car. Maybe somebody can post some reference that proves how running longer trains affects in-train forces and stopping ability.
Flintlock76In my admittedly inexpert opinion it would make more sense and be cheaper in the long run to run shorter more easily inspected and handled trains and pay the crews to run them than it would be to pay millions for the clean-up, damages, lawsuits, and rotten PR you'd get with monster train wrecks.
The Pinto effect may be an appropriate consideration here. It may be cheaper to clean up the occasional wreck than to pay three crews, day in and day out, to run the same number of cars.
To illustrate - I've occasionally computed the cost of staffing a four person fire apparatus 24/7 (I live in an area where fire departments are almost all fully volunteer - that would increase the cost of fire protection locally astronomically). Depending on base pay rates, it's somewhere north of a half million dollars a year.
For sake of argument, let's say that the cost of keeping one train moving 24/7 is half that. Using three crews puts the cost at $1.5 million per year. Multiply that times the equivalent trains moving on a daily basis (1,000's) and you might get the sense that cleaning up the occasional derailment is, in fact, cheaper than paying the extra help.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the major function of unions is to protect the jobs of their members. Running fewer trains with fewer employees means their members may be losing their jobs, or at least some portion of their pay. The union may talk about safety (which is a good thing), but I would opine that's not their prime consideration.
As has been mentioned by others, three smaller trains will also take up a lot more track space than the one large train.
I don't know that the big monsters take longer to stop. They will have DP consist(s) that do initiate setting and releasing of the air brakes at the same time the head end does, except during comm loss. Then the DP has to wait for the brake pipe to change.
In-train forces are certainly multiplied, even with DP, the longer the train becomes. DP helps, but can't always compensate. Once you start getting over 1-1/2 miles you can have slack moving in two directions at the same time. Some trains, those with a lot of cushioned drawbars, are harder to handle than others of the same length.
It's not impossible, because it's done everyday. However, even when you do everything right, a stressed knuckle or drawbar can still get you. They have their numbers and statistics. They have the magic number of acceptable failures and has long as they stay below that, they'll run the big trains.
https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/aar-urges-railroads-to-sideline-new-cars-that-may-have-caused-ns-derailment-in-springfield-ohio/
Loose wheels on new coil steel cars likely cause of Springfield, OH derailment. AAR issues advisory to remove affected new coil steel cars from service.
Man, NS can't buy a break right now.
ns145Man, NS can't buy a break right now.
Unless the condition is something your average car knocker or crew member would be able to spot, this one can't be pinned on NS, I wouldn't think.
That's a point NS should be making loud and clear.
Have to wonder. Where in a train is the safest location to put Haz Mat? If the HM is near front of train and derailment happens in front as it did the cars following pileup into a spill. but if wreck is behind cars then Haz Mat misses the pile up. Now Haz Mat at end of train may avoid pile up if it stops before pile up.
I would opine that it's the luck of the draw. No matter where you put the hazmat, if there's a car with loose wheels ahead of it, well...
tree68I would opine that it's the luck of the draw. No matter where you put the hazmat, if there's a car with loose wheels ahead of it, well...
That sounds like a good argument for putting as few other cars in front of the hazmat as possible.
Derailments are rare, so is winning the lottery. But by buying 30 lottery tickets, you increase your odds of winning (ever so slightly) my having 30 chances vs one.
I'd think that the fewer potential "winning tickets" you have in place ahead of the hazmat, is the safer option?
But if you have the hazmats towards the front of the train they become more vulnerable in grade crossing derailments, rockslides, collisions and such.
cx500 But if you have the hazmats towards the front of the train they become more vulnerable in grade crossing derailments, rockslides, collisions and such.
Exactly. There are reasons that whatever placement that may be suggested for hazmat may be beneficial, and there's reasons why it would be a bad thing.
It's a crap shoot.
Laws of physics aren't selective. Loads at the front, empties at the rear, no matter the lading.
The other shoe still hasn't dropped...
ns145https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/aar-urges-railroads-to-sideline-new-cars-that-may-have-caused-ns-derailment-in-springfield-ohio/ Loose wheels on new coil steel cars likely cause of Springfield, OH derailment. AAR issues advisory to remove affected new coil steel cars from service. Man, NS can't buy a break right now.
Are the loose wheels a Canadian plot against the US?
https://railfan.com/aar-urges-railroads-to-park-defective-coil-cars/?fbclid=IwAR3dBfnJPPyYAEXEpNFOyHMZQMGLvVrikOZuHplo3SUFb_wWyNTGri8xag8
Do we even know where the wheelsets were sourced. Quite possibly it was in Hamilton but supply chains can be lengthy.
CSSHEGEWISCH As has been mentioned by others, three smaller trains will also take up a lot more track space than the one large train.
Shorter trains might not necessarily have to take up a "lot" more track space than a monster train, just some. Back in the "good ol' days", blocks tended to be one mile long; sometimes shorter. That allowed the railroads to more easily run fast passenger trains in multiple sections.
With the passenger trains mostly gone (and multiple sections COMPLETELY gone) the railroads have reconfigured their block systems. Some blocks might occassionaly be up to five miles long. (By that I mean the distance between signals).
So, this makes running shorter trains such as three trains 70-71 cars long as opposed to one, long 212 car train somewhat more problematic. So, yes, with blocks that long, three trains would take up a "lot" more track space than one long monser train.
The 'correct' answer here is to implement CBTC overlay for 'shorter' trains that are to run on close headway.
Admittedly the modern "PSR" penchant for running at 40mph/notch-5 restricted means that the effective stopping distance is less and hence blocks can be shorter, and on a PTC system without waysides, shorter blocks may not co$t dramatically more. But that itself is a kludge, and a potentially dangerous one if there is any faster traffic on the line, particularly any at 70 or 79mph.
Correct CBTC is like an electronic version of restricted speed: it tracks the consist ahead, and ensures a safe stop regardless of the 'reason' there's a problem with the preceding consist. Of course this presupposes the CBTC has been implemented and maintained properly...
(Incidentally, none of the autonomous-boxcar or platooned-block systems work without advanced CBTC.)
Fred M Cain CSSHEGEWISCH As has been mentioned by others, three smaller trains will also take up a lot more track space than the one large train. Shorter trains might not necessarily have to take up a "lot" more track space than a monster train, just some. Back in the "good ol' days", blocks tended to be one mile long; sometimes shorter. That allowed the railroads to more easily run fast passenger trains in multiple sections. With the passenger trains mostly gone (and multiple sections COMPLETELY gone) the railroads have reconfigured their block systems. Some blocks might occassionaly be up to five miles long. (By that I mean the distance between signals). So, this makes running shorter trains such as three trains 70-71 cars long as opposed to one, long 212 car train somewhat more problematic. So, yes, with blocks that long, three trains would take up a "lot" more track space than one long monser train.
Back in the good old days blocks tended to be 2 or 3 miles. It is dependent on braking lengths for freight trains. Now blocks are (for us) getting shorter to 1.25 +/- miles. There still are plenty of places with longer legacy blocks.
One reason is going from a block system of clear - approach - stop/stop and proceed/restricting to one that has an advance approach between the clear and approach.
It used to be our longest trains were usually about 9000 feet long. Coal trains were about 1 and a half miles long. Plenty of trains in the 6500 to 7500 foot range and we handled them just fine.
Our problem back then wasn't getting over the road, but getting through crew change points. Trains would back up waiting for trains ahead to change out and get out of town.
That's interesting about the new, shorter signal blocks. I didn't realize UP was doing that outside of the Joliet-St. Louis high speed rail corridor. I'm surprised UP would want to foot the bill for all of the extra signal equipment and maintenance.
mudchicken Laws of physics aren't selective.
Laws of physics aren't selective.
How does that jibe with Murphy's law of selective gravitation, e.g. a dropped hammer will land where it will do the most damage.
On a more serious note, anything that decreases the chance of a derailment will almost certainly improve safety.
Erik_MagHow does that jibe with Murphy's law of selective gravitation, e.g. a dropped hammer will land where it will do the most damage.
All Murphy says is that if you drop a hammer, it will fall and do damage rather than just harmlessly fall or bounce.
OvermodAll Murphy says is that if you drop a hammer, it will fall and do damage rather than just harmlessly fall or bounce.
Can't forget Gumperson's Law, a corollary of Murphy - If anything can go wrong it will, and at the worst possible time...
tree68 Overmod All Murphy says is that if you drop a hammer, it will fall and do damage rather than just harmlessly fall or bounce. Can't forget Gumperson's Law, a corollary of Murphy - If anything can go wrong it will, and at the worst possible time...
Overmod All Murphy says is that if you drop a hammer, it will fall and do damage rather than just harmlessly fall or bounce.
My Father's Railroad Corollary to Murphy - A derailment will happen in the worst possible location in the worst possible weather for the Season and territory where it happens.
Overmod Erik_Mag How does that jibe with Murphy's law of selective gravitation, e.g. a dropped hammer will land where it will do the most damage. That's not Murphy's law; it's a corollary of Finagle's Law (the perversity of the Universe tends to a maximum). All Murphy says is that if you drop a hammer, it will fall and do damage rather than just harmlessly fall or bounce.
Erik_Mag How does that jibe with Murphy's law of selective gravitation, e.g. a dropped hammer will land where it will do the most damage.
That's not Murphy's law; it's a corollary of Finagle's Law (the perversity of the Universe tends to a maximum).
Interesting Wiki discussion involving two forms of heuristic bias:
"According to Richard Dawkins, so-called laws like Murphy's law and Sod's law are nonsense because they require inanimate objects to have desires of their own, or else to react according to one's own desires. Dawkins points out that a certain class of events may occur all the time, but are only noticed when they become a nuisance. He gives as an example aircraft noise interfering with filming. Aircraft are in the sky all the time, but are only taken note of when they cause a problem. This is a form of confirmation bias whereby the investigator seeks out evidence to confirm his already formed ideas, but does not look for evidence that contradicts them.[20]
Similarly, David Hand, emeritus professor of mathematics and senior research investigator at Imperial College London, points out that the law of truly large numbers should lead one to expect the kind of events predicted by Murphy's law to occur occasionally. Selection bias will ensure that those ones are remembered and the many times Murphy's law was not true are forgotten.[21]"
charlie hebdotwo forms of heuristic bias:
IMHO this is getting too complicated. Google simply says: Murphy's Law ("If anything can go wrong, it will") was born at Edwards Air Force Base in 1949 at North Base. It was named after Capt. Edward A. Murphy, an engineer working on Air Force Project MX981, (a project) designed to see how much sudden deceleration a person can stand in a crash.Aug 5, 2014
Simple: If anything can go wrong it will.
Of course a variety of the original have be created.
Remember the "KISS" rule. My wife in her elementary classroom changed the
last word to "sweetie" endmrw0317231830
And we can't forget:
Murphy was an optimist.
One modification: Everything takes longer and cost more than you think.
And one I've never heard anyone else mention but seems to apply to me: If there's a 50/50 chance of getting something right, somehow I'll get it wrong about 90% of the time.
I'm not sure this is qualifies as a Law, but if it is, we might call it Mickey's Law:
"The early bird gets the worm,
but it's the second mouse that gets the cheese."
A couple of favorites from the EE field:
When writing specifications, Murphy's Law supersedes Ohm's.
Oscillators won't, amplifiers will
If I remember correctly, Murphy was speaking about an engineer, and the original quote is something like "if anyone can get it wrong, he can".
One of my favorites was
* After the last of 32 hold-down screws has been removed from an access cover, it will be discovered that the wrong access cover has been removed.
* After the last of 32 hold-down screws has been torqued for an access cover, it will be discovered that the gasket has been omitted.
Overmod... * After the last of 32 hold-down screws has been torqued for an access cover, it will be discovered that the gasket has been omitted.
Remember - those 32 hold down screws had to be torqued in three steps to come to spec before the missing gasket was discovered.
CSX Robert One modification: Everything takes longer and cost more than you think. And one I've never heard anyone else mention but seems to apply to me: If there's a 50/50 chance of getting something right, somehow I'll get it wrong about 90% of the time.
To make this story more UNBELIVABLE this was a government project.
My mother had a 1st cousin, USS Meyer, named after him. He rose to be an admiral. He was in charge of building the first of this class ship. He had a philosophy of build sub parts and testing BEFORE attachment on the ship. Guess what: The first ship he built was.......UNDERBUDGET and AHEAD of SCHEDULE.
On that same note: Can we trust Bill Stephens reporting? Last paper issue, Trains pg 6, interview w/CP CEO. Wow what a read! Anyone find fault w/this man's philosophy? I emphasize there are good numbers there to back him up. Anybody with downside to this way of operating a RR? As Paul Harvey said, "What's the rest of the story"?endmrw0318321638
BaltACDRemember - those 32 hold down screws had to be torqued in three steps to come to spec before the missing gasket was discovered.
As Larry is a "ham", surely more than once he has soldered center conductor on the male fitting....only to discover he had NOT sliden the threaded ring on the cable before installing what goes inside it endmrw0318231646
[quote user="Overmod"]That's not Murphy's law; it's a corollary of Finagle's Law (the perversity of the Universe tends to a maximum)
This is getting way off subject, but it is too tempting to ignore. 2 Law of Thermo.....simply everthing tends to dissorder. I'm exchanging perverisity = disorder. I submit, to keep this on subject. "Another one bites the DUST". A structure NEVER maintained.....will one day will be a pile of DUST....enthropy. endmrw0318231702
Cotton Belt MP104As Larry is a "ham", surely more than once he has soldered center conductor on the male fitting...
Yep. I was putting new ends on a couple of electrical cords the other day and even though I wasn't soldering the connections, I still checked twice to make sure the upper part of the connector was where it needed to be...
tree68 Cotton Belt MP104 As Larry is a "ham", surely more than once he has soldered center conductor on the male fitting... Yep. I was putting new ends on a couple of electrical cords the other day and even though I wasn't soldering the connections, I still checked twice to make sure the upper part of the connector was where it needed to be...
Cotton Belt MP104 As Larry is a "ham", surely more than once he has soldered center conductor on the male fitting...
I got a lot of soldering practice rebuilding a molex connector or twenty after doing that.
I wonder if the OP could possibly edit the title of this thread so that, say, five years from now if someone were to search for the Springfield, Ohio derailment of 2023 it would come up toward the top of the search results.
I wouldn't necessarily remember "bites the dust" in that context.
[edit] Thank You Much better now!
Cheers, Ed
So, who the heck was "Murphy", anyhow?
Fred M Cain So, who the heck was "Murphy", anyhow?
I present you with Captain Edward Murphy:
https://www.military.com/history/real-life-murphy-and-how-murphys-law-came-be.html
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