Audio recordings of radio contact:
STATIONMASTER: Proceed through red traffic light exit until traffic light entry of Neon Poron.
TRAIN DRIVER: Vasilis, am I good to go?
STATIONMASTER: Go, go.
RAILROAD EMPLOYEE: Shall I turn it now?
STATIONMASTER: No, no, because 1564 is on this route.
What strikes me is the informality of the communication.
I believe the stationmaster's boss has been arrested, plus also two other stationmasters who went home early.
Meanwhile, it appears that the appropriate reaction by Greeks to this event is to riot in the streets.
Ed
Not clear if it was single or double-track territory.
If double tracked, may have been ABS for current-of-traffic with manual block rules for movements against the current of traffic.
But reports said the signal system wasn't working. Nothing as to WHY it wasn't operative.
So I'll take a guess that signals were out for even ABS operation on the track the trains were operating on.
In that case, may have been manual block operation of some sort (don't know how they handle control of the blocks over there) for BOTH trains.
In other words, operating on "dark" track, both ways, with nothing more than "paper" authority (or perhaps not even that much).
Somehow communication between the operators broke down (or were ignored by one of the operators), and the two trains got turned loose against each other on the same track. Engine drivers had no idea until it was too late.
ORNHOO BaltACD As of yet - no one has identified what the method of train control was being used on the track segment involved in the incident. Without knowing the method of train control being used, it is not possible to accurately assess blame. "some" information can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_railway_signalling
BaltACD As of yet - no one has identified what the method of train control was being used on the track segment involved in the incident. Without knowing the method of train control being used, it is not possible to accurately assess blame.
"some" information can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_railway_signalling
Does not explain what system was in effect on the line involved and what the rules of operation are for that line.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I've had a decades long interest in Greece, though don't know much in particular about thier rail system. I've been reading any number of articles in the English language Greek press and have never yet found a clear technical description of what signalling system was intended to be in place, working or not. This article is about as clear as I've found.
https://www.ekathimerini.com/news/1206447/etcs-awaiting-signaling-system-of-rail-network/
There has been plenty written in the Greek press that unions have been warning for years about safety issues and that whatever the stationmaster did or didn't do, he wasn't well trained or experienced, and much of the systems were not working.
Never yet read if either or both trains went through red signals or this was a failure of train orders or something else.
7j43kThe operators at SF Interlocking and NJ Interlocking and the dispatcher failed to follow the rules. It appears that, if they had, the crash would not have happened.
Seems like I've read in accounts of towers and operators that the first thing to be done when getting such a train order was to set the signal. As noted, this wasn't done before or after the TO was dictated.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I examined the report some more.
The operators at SF Interlocking and NJ Interlocking and the dispatcher failed to follow the rules. It appears that, if they had, the crash would not have happened.
"In the instant case the operator at SF Interlocking Station failed to block the lever controlling signal 36 in a position to cause that signal to display a Stop aspect, and to display a red flag or red light as required by the rules when he received the signal "31 West" from the train dispatcher. He did not give the stop-displayed signal until after the order was transmitted although the rules require that the signal be given after the signal "31 West" has been given by the train dispatcher and before the order is transmitted. He gave the stop-displayed signal without fulfilling the requirements of the rules regarding the blocking of the signal lever and the proper display of train order signals. The operator at NJ Interlocking Station did not give the stop-displayed signal at any time while handling the form 19 train order involved although the rules require that that signal be given after the signal "19 East" has been given by the train dispatcher and before the order is transmitted. The train dispatcher failed to require both operators to give the stop-displayed signal at the time specified by the rules. Both the night chief train dispatcher and the train dispatcher said that it has been the practice to give the stop-displayed signal after transmitting the order when a form 31 train order is involved. Further, the train dispatcher said that it is not the usual practice to require the operator at NJ Interlocking Station to give the stop-displayed signal when a form 19 train order is involved."
I am guessing that the list of rules violations from Greece will be a good bit longer.
OvermodI'm not sure what type of engine 859 was.
An Alco PA. Geep 1402 was running long hood forward which saved the head-end crew. The PA was able to be repaired and put back in service but the Geep was eventually scrapped.
OvermodThere were multiple attempts to use the train radio, which every train involved in this had
The main issue with the radios that I've read was this occurred in the Ramapo Mountains which have a very high concentration of iron which created a radio dead zone. Conventional radios still have problems there as I understand it.
There was a lot of iron mining and smelting there in the 18th and 19th Centuries until the Mesabi Range ores were discovered and the Ramapo mines couldn't compete.
7j43kWho would have received that order, and what would they have done if they had received it?
A long freight coming off the Graham Line was routed onto what would normally be 50's track, so orders were issued to allow 50 to operate against current of traffic and to hold 53 until 50 had passed. The order to 53 was not delivered "because the agent was distracted by a telephone call and forgot' and the actions required by the Erie to set signals for 53 were not correctly followed.
There were multiple attempts to use the train radio, which every train involved in this had, and even thoughts of phone-patching from the dispatcher's office in Hoboken through the facilities at SF interlocking. It was all just a bit too late.
I'm not sure what type of engine 859 was. The engine crew went back into the engine room but I don't believe it helped them. 53 I believe was running one of the passenger Geeps. It was irritating trying to convert railroad east/west into actual train movements as the railroad is substantially north-south at that point.
Flintlock76 For those interested here's the official report of the Erie Rockland County NY wreck in 1958. https://www.jonroma.net/media/rail/accident/usa/icc/3818.pdf
For those interested here's the official report of the Erie Rockland County NY wreck in 1958.
https://www.jonroma.net/media/rail/accident/usa/icc/3818.pdf
Thanks much for posting this!
I did a quick read. Now I have to actually READ it.
This mornjng I read that the train driver was told to ignore the red signal by the Greek ewuivalent of a dispatcher. That was the cause of a fatal collision on a branch line in Bavaria a few years ago.
BaltACD ORNHOO tree68 diningcar It is reported that a stationmaster has been arrested. This suggests that switches were not in the correct position. That would seem to suggest that the stationmaster also functions as what we'd refer to as a tower operator at that location. As seen in this cab ride: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJRGaokaFE4 the stations have "exit signals" at the ends of the platforms. I do not know if they are under the control of the individual stationmasters. Without having an understanding of the Operating and Signal Rules in effect as well as a understanding of the Greek language - we have NO REAL IDEA of what we are seeing and what is supposed to be happening. Passing 3 sets of signals, that to my sight, only displayed RED indications leaves ME with serious questions about the Signal Rule. The vegitation in the center ditch and within the cateary pole line is unique.
ORNHOO tree68 diningcar It is reported that a stationmaster has been arrested. This suggests that switches were not in the correct position. That would seem to suggest that the stationmaster also functions as what we'd refer to as a tower operator at that location. As seen in this cab ride: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJRGaokaFE4 the stations have "exit signals" at the ends of the platforms. I do not know if they are under the control of the individual stationmasters.
tree68 diningcar It is reported that a stationmaster has been arrested. This suggests that switches were not in the correct position. That would seem to suggest that the stationmaster also functions as what we'd refer to as a tower operator at that location.
As seen in this cab ride: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJRGaokaFE4
the stations have "exit signals" at the ends of the platforms. I do not know if they are under the control of the individual stationmasters.
Without having an understanding of the Operating and Signal Rules in effect as well as a understanding of the Greek language - we have NO REAL IDEA of what we are seeing and what is supposed to be happening.
Passing 3 sets of signals, that to my sight, only displayed RED indications leaves ME with serious questions about the Signal Rule.
The vegitation in the center ditch and within the cateary pole line is unique.
Reading the comments, at least the ones in english, one points out that some signals are marked indicating they aren't working/out of service. I would guess if they are marked that they aren't working, it's going to be a long term outage.
Obviously they don't care if they turn or put a hood over the signal head.
Jeff
BaltACD Flintlock76 7j43k Interesting quote. From what I've been reading, it's the "controls" that WEREN'T performed that is the problem. The poor guy said he forgot. If that's the case he wasn't the first. https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/rockland/sloatsburg/2018/10/03/rockland-train-crash-signalman-gave-green-light-death/1430659002/ RAILROAD: Erie LOCATION: Sloatsburg, N. Y. KIND OF ACCIDENT: Head-end collision TRAINS INVOLVED: Passenger Passenger TRAIN NUMBERS: 50 53 LOCOMOTIVE NUMBERS:D-E unit 859 D-E unit 1402 CONSISTS: 4 cars 5 cars SPEEDS: 15-20 m.p.h. 20 m.p.h. OPERATION: Timetable, train orders, and automatic block-signal system TRACK Double; 1 degree 40' curve; 0.47 percent ascending grade westward WEATHER: Partly cloudy TIME: 5:47 a.m. CASUALTIES: 5 killed; 37 injured CAUSE: Failure to deliver a right-of-track order
Flintlock76 7j43k Interesting quote. From what I've been reading, it's the "controls" that WEREN'T performed that is the problem. The poor guy said he forgot. If that's the case he wasn't the first. https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/rockland/sloatsburg/2018/10/03/rockland-train-crash-signalman-gave-green-light-death/1430659002/
7j43k Interesting quote. From what I've been reading, it's the "controls" that WEREN'T performed that is the problem. The poor guy said he forgot.
If that's the case he wasn't the first.
https://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/rockland/sloatsburg/2018/10/03/rockland-train-crash-signalman-gave-green-light-death/1430659002/
RAILROAD: Erie
LOCATION: Sloatsburg, N. Y.
KIND OF ACCIDENT: Head-end collision
TRAINS INVOLVED: Passenger Passenger
TRAIN NUMBERS: 50 53
LOCOMOTIVE NUMBERS:D-E unit 859 D-E unit 1402
CONSISTS: 4 cars 5 cars
SPEEDS: 15-20 m.p.h. 20 m.p.h.
OPERATION: Timetable, train orders, and automatic block-signal system
TRACK Double; 1 degree 40' curve; 0.47 percent ascending grade westward
WEATHER: Partly cloudy
TIME: 5:47 a.m.
CASUALTIES: 5 killed; 37 injured
CAUSE: Failure to deliver a right-of-track order
Thanks.
Who would have received that order, and what would they have done if they had received it?
I read that. I can't make sense out of it. It looks like two trains were on one of a pair of double tracks. Quite possibly, that track was ABS signaled in only one direction. If so, then one train would have seen a yellow and a red signal as the other train approached. THAT other train, going against traffic and signals, would have no signal information.
But, I believe, sending trains against the signal direction is taken VERY seriously. So whoever decided to send the "blind" train down that track should have been VERY sure it was safe.
And. Apparently that didn't happen.
Anyway, that's how I interpret the story.
7j43kInteresting quote. From what I've been reading, it's the "controls" that WEREN'T performed that is the problem. The poor guy said he forgot.
As of yet - no one has identified what the method of train control was being used on the track segment involved in the incident.
"Very good point. One would think reporters would be asking about that, and revealing the answer.
For some reason they haven't, or perhaps they did not receive an answer. Or did not feel it newsworthy."
Few reporters have enough knowledge of railroad operations to ask any meaningful questions.
Pretty much, I think.
But I note that the Union leadership says they kept sending letters to someone pointing out the lack of safety.
But do not appear to have urged a worker work-slowdown or a strike to get action.
NOW they have a one-day strike. Maybe they should have had a one-day strike earlier to get action on their multiple letters.
7j43k BaltACD diningcar From Wall Street Journal today: "Some controls performed at station of Larissa resulted in two trains moving on the same track in opposite direction." This supports the earlier report that an employee had been arrested. Apparently, to me, the Greek rail system has very little in safety supervision. As of yet - no one has identified what the method of train control was being used on the track segment involved in the incident. Very good point. One would think reporters would be asking about that, and revealing the answer. For some reason they haven't, or perhaps they did not receive an answer. Or did not feel it newsworthy. Without knowing the method of train control being used, it is not possible to accurately assess blame. Apparently the police have that information, as they made an arrest. Further arrests should be expected momentarily. I wonder who it will be. Perhaps a "safety supervisor", as diningcar seems to be hinting at. Ed
BaltACD diningcar From Wall Street Journal today: "Some controls performed at station of Larissa resulted in two trains moving on the same track in opposite direction." This supports the earlier report that an employee had been arrested. Apparently, to me, the Greek rail system has very little in safety supervision. As of yet - no one has identified what the method of train control was being used on the track segment involved in the incident.
diningcar From Wall Street Journal today: "Some controls performed at station of Larissa resulted in two trains moving on the same track in opposite direction." This supports the earlier report that an employee had been arrested. Apparently, to me, the Greek rail system has very little in safety supervision.
This supports the earlier report that an employee had been arrested. Apparently, to me, the Greek rail system has very little in safety supervision.
Very good point. One would think reporters would be asking about that, and revealing the answer.
For some reason they haven't, or perhaps they did not receive an answer. Or did not feel it newsworthy.
Without knowing the method of train control being used, it is not possible to accurately assess blame.
Apparently the police have that information, as they made an arrest. Further arrests should be expected momentarily. I wonder who it will be. Perhaps a "safety supervisor", as diningcar seems to be hinting at.
Personally - I think the Greek Police would probably arrest 'a ham sandwich' to be able to say the 'solved' the case.
It is very easy to make a scapegoat of someone so far down on the Org Chart that they barely have a employed ID number. The REAL responsible party is much higher up in the Org Chart, or maybe even a 'Activist Investor', as I understand there is private/public conflict taking place about the Greek rail system.
With us not being Greek, in another news cycle this incident will be off the 'Front Page' and will become lost in history.
From Wall Street Journal today: "Some controls performed at station of Larissa resulted in two trains moving on the same track in opposite direction."
Interesting quote. From what I've been reading, it's the "controls" that WEREN'T performed that is the problem.
The poor guy said he forgot.
diningcarFrom Wall Street Journal today: "Some controls performed at station of Larissa resulted in two trains moving on the same track in opposite direction." This supports the earlier report that an employee had been arrested. Apparently, to me, the Greek rail system has very little in safety supervision.
BaltACD 7j43k Any rail system that depends on everyone "remembering" to do the thing they're supposed to do is pathetic, and worse. It's been said that these were signaled track, but the signals weren't working. That said, the main fault lies with one or both engineers, who exceeded reasonable track speeds for non-signaled trackage (uh, obviously, now), and consequently killed several dozen people. A question is WHY did they choose to do so? It appears their union knew about the signals not working. They would also have been aware of these violations, and apparently condoned them. If they didn't condone them, then the workers should have walked off, as directed by their union. A close second is whoever designed and implimented about the most half-assed solution to a lack of working signals ever. The guy forgot to throw the switch. Obviously missing is anyone asking him if he really HAD thrown the switch. And that's just the beginning. All I'm hearing from every element of this mess is "we don't have enough money" and "it was someone else's fault". My opinion of Greece just keeps lowering the more I learn about it. Ed When you have NO IDEA of what the Operating Rules were that applied to each of the involved parties you have NO BASIS to make any accusatory statements.
7j43k Any rail system that depends on everyone "remembering" to do the thing they're supposed to do is pathetic, and worse. It's been said that these were signaled track, but the signals weren't working. That said, the main fault lies with one or both engineers, who exceeded reasonable track speeds for non-signaled trackage (uh, obviously, now), and consequently killed several dozen people. A question is WHY did they choose to do so? It appears their union knew about the signals not working. They would also have been aware of these violations, and apparently condoned them. If they didn't condone them, then the workers should have walked off, as directed by their union. A close second is whoever designed and implimented about the most half-assed solution to a lack of working signals ever. The guy forgot to throw the switch. Obviously missing is anyone asking him if he really HAD thrown the switch. And that's just the beginning. All I'm hearing from every element of this mess is "we don't have enough money" and "it was someone else's fault". My opinion of Greece just keeps lowering the more I learn about it. Ed
It's been said that these were signaled track, but the signals weren't working.
That said, the main fault lies with one or both engineers, who exceeded reasonable track speeds for non-signaled trackage (uh, obviously, now), and consequently killed several dozen people. A question is WHY did they choose to do so?
It appears their union knew about the signals not working. They would also have been aware of these violations, and apparently condoned them. If they didn't condone them, then the workers should have walked off, as directed by their union.
A close second is whoever designed and implimented about the most half-assed solution to a lack of working signals ever. The guy forgot to throw the switch. Obviously missing is anyone asking him if he really HAD thrown the switch. And that's just the beginning.
All I'm hearing from every element of this mess is "we don't have enough money" and "it was someone else's fault".
My opinion of Greece just keeps lowering the more I learn about it.
When you have NO IDEA of what the Operating Rules were that applied to each of the involved parties you have NO BASIS to make any accusatory statements.
Either safe operating rules were violated, or operating rules were not designed to be safe.
So it seems to me.
7j43kAny rail system that depends on everyone "remembering" to do the thing they're supposed to do is pathetic, and worse. It's been said that these were signaled track, but the signals weren't working. That said, the main fault lies with one or both engineers, who exceeded reasonable track speeds for non-signaled trackage (uh, obviously, now), and consequently killed several dozen people. A question is WHY did they choose to do so? It appears their union knew about the signals not working. They would also have been aware of these violations, and apparently condoned them. If they didn't condone them, then the workers should have walked off, as directed by their union. A close second is whoever designed and implimented about the most half-assed solution to a lack of working signals ever. The guy forgot to throw the switch. Obviously missing is anyone asking him if he really HAD thrown the switch. And that's just the beginning. All I'm hearing from every element of this mess is "we don't have enough money" and "it was someone else's fault". My opinion of Greece just keeps lowering the more I learn about it. Ed
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