I would be interested in seeing the list of all the temperatures of all the axles measured by the detector, and then see if that one axle at 103 degrees above ambient is a statistical outlier relative to all the other ones. If it was, I'm thinking that could be a basis for making a relatively simple software change in the detectors to look for such statistical anomalies. If one axle on a train is running much hotter than all the rest, stop and inspect the anomaly, even if that axle might not otherwise be at a threshold requiring a stop.
BigJimNot even hot enough to fry spit! Not even enough to start smoking!
Which is why they didn't get an alarm. Most people are claiming the bearing is on fire in that video. As I explained before, I don't think it was, I think it was just shooting sparks. What it looks like to me is something failed relatively quickly, causing direct metal to metal wear and a massive shower of sparks, that, in that nighttime video, looks like fire.
charlie hebdo The preliminary report found the accident was "completely preventable" blaming the first two hotbox detectors having a threshold for alarm too high. Crew was not at fault at all. Maybe the rails need to use modern, cheap technology? A door alarm camera would pick up sparking and fire (clearly what counts) instead of the hotbox detector method: inferring a problem by estimating degrees above ambient temperature.
The preliminary report found the accident was "completely preventable" blaming the first two hotbox detectors having a threshold for alarm too high. Crew was not at fault at all.
Maybe the rails need to use modern, cheap technology? A door alarm camera would pick up sparking and fire (clearly what counts) instead of the hotbox detector method: inferring a problem by estimating degrees above ambient temperature.
If every train with a bearing at or above 103F gets stopped and inspected, the US railroad network is going to turn into one huge congested mess - well, a bigger congested mess than it already is! We need better data on bearing failures and better predictive analytics to isolate problem axles. Also pretty obvious that hotbox detectors need to be spaced closer together, especially on routes with high operating speeds, high train counts and hazmat traffic.
I do agree that visual recording systems located at and between detector sites would be helpful. Visual and infrared images could be collected and processed automatically by machine learning software to isolate problem conditions. This system could identify other safety issues such as shifted loads, excessive rocking, train hoppers, etc. Yeah, yeah I know - it'll cost money! Too bad. Can't have this sort of thing happening. It's easy to pooh-pooh rare events like this from a distance, but imagine your local railroad having an major hazmat incident in your proverbial back yard and forcing you to shut your business down or stop working and evacuate for an extended amount of time.
tree68 Euclid Can you provide a link to that drone footage. I have not seen it. Just Google "East Palestine Derailment." Lots of news footage. I've long held the opinion that one of the cars "dug in," thus stopping suddenly and causing the pile-up behind it.
Euclid Can you provide a link to that drone footage. I have not seen it.
Just Google "East Palestine Derailment." Lots of news footage.
I've long held the opinion that one of the cars "dug in," thus stopping suddenly and causing the pile-up behind it.
Yes, I have seen countless news stories of the wreck. I have also heard reference to a video of the derailment in progress, but maybe that is inaccurate. I thought samfp 1943 was referring to that, but maybe not. I must assume that if there was such a video, it would have been all over the place.
I agree that the cars dug in. They usually do to some extent. But they also frequently just turn sideways because they are being pushed from behind. So they form a zigzag pattern that closes up so all the cars stack tightly sideways into a heap.
CSX Robert mvlandsw The report mentioned that the Salem detector showed the journal temperature at 103 degrees which did not trigger an alarm. 103 seems low for a journal that was on fire. A person can have a fever higher than that. 103 degrees over ambient. I don't know that the journal was on fire. I know that's what everyone's claiming, but it may just be shooting sparks.
mvlandsw The report mentioned that the Salem detector showed the journal temperature at 103 degrees which did not trigger an alarm. 103 seems low for a journal that was on fire. A person can have a fever higher than that.
103 degrees over ambient. I don't know that the journal was on fire. I know that's what everyone's claiming, but it may just be shooting sparks.
103° above "ambient" ? Think about that! If the "ambient" was, for example, 50°, then it would be 153°. Not even hot enough to fry spit! Not even enough to start smoking!
.
IMO the engine crew did an outstading job. The train was in dynamic braking ( maybe because of descending grade )before the crew was aware of the problem. Once they got the report they did not panic but increased dynamics to gradually slow train and not go to emergency. Imagine they might have put DPU full dynamic to keep train streached.
However, before train could slow derailment started and brakes went to emergency . Front of train probably continued until it rolled to a stop. Then crew went out, appplied hand brakes on two cars, then boogied out of there. Now tell me how a single person could have acccomplished that.?
Oh wait, the traveling conductor would have done that as soon as he drove the 20 miles to the accident.
mvlandswThe report mentioned that the Salem detector showed the journal temperature at 103 degrees which did not trigger an alarm. 103 seems low for a journal that was on fire. A person can have a fever higher than that.
103 degrees over ambient. I don't know that the journal was on fire. I know that's what everyone's claiming, but it may just be shooting sparks. That security camera is operating in night mode and anything bright is ging to be grossly over exposed. Just look at the lights in the video and see how they look like glowing orbs. Now imagine a shower of sparks overexposed like that and it's probably going to look like a ball of fire.
EuclidCan you provide a link to that drone footage. I have not seen it.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
samfp1943The 'drone footage' seems to indicate that as that applicaton took place; the cars within the train began to 'accordian', and derailed within the community limits (?). All this is shown in the drone footage accompanying the media reporting.
Can you provide a link to that drone footage. I have not seen it.
Has there been any mention of which side of the train the defective journal was on? From the video at Salem I think it was the left side. The pictures of the derailment seem to show the train on the right hand track. With the train running on the right hand track of a double track line it would be much easier to look back 25 car lengths along the left side of the train.
I saw somewhere that there were three crew members on the locomotive. That would probably mean that two of them were on the left side of the cab.
The report mentioned that the Salem detector showed the journal temperature at 103 degrees which did not trigger an alarm. 103 seems low for a journal that was on fire. A person can have a fever higher than that.
samfp1943 BaltACD tree68 Salem is at 40.90104 -80.86401 East Palestine (specifically the site of the wreck) is at 40.83642 -80.52180 Jump on Google maps, or Acme Mapper, or whatever satellite image program you prefer and follow the line across. Note the locations of curves, and especially note the existence of vegetation. As noted, even in winter, trees and underbrush provide a pretty substantial view block. A look at the topo map will also show numerous cuts and places where the line winds around hills. Seeing 25 cars back isn't going to be all that easy. Reality is a female dog! To Note; and some observations, from the 'Media' reportage on the wreck scene in E. Palestine, Oh. It has been reported that the NS Train had traveled some 20 miles (?) fromm the location of its last 'hot box' detector(?). The 'defect was becoming so 'prominent' that at severaql locations it was picked up on local businesses cameras. as well as several individuals 'ring- door bell cameras(?) Today, it was noted that 'the crew' had received a 'warning' as the train was entering the area of the crossings in E. Palestine. Appare4ntly, because of that 'warning' the 'engineer' made an emergency brake application*(?). The 'drone footage' seems to indicate that as that applicaton took place; the cars within the train began to 'accordian', and derailed within the community limits (?). All this is shown in the drone footage accompanying the media reporting. And of course, the'media' is spinning the whole episode, "...who's responsible for the 'burning of the accident scene, and the oliticians are wither there or keeping their distances...It has to be a reality that NS's 'Insurance' is going totake whatever 'hit' they can handle. Porportedly, that coverage, has been noted to be somewhere in the $1 Billion dollar per incident range(*?)...All that will get thrashed out in the aftermath by government, politicians, and courts... All should go on for some time(??).
BaltACD tree68 Salem is at 40.90104 -80.86401 East Palestine (specifically the site of the wreck) is at 40.83642 -80.52180 Jump on Google maps, or Acme Mapper, or whatever satellite image program you prefer and follow the line across. Note the locations of curves, and especially note the existence of vegetation. As noted, even in winter, trees and underbrush provide a pretty substantial view block. A look at the topo map will also show numerous cuts and places where the line winds around hills. Seeing 25 cars back isn't going to be all that easy. Reality is a female dog!
tree68 Salem is at 40.90104 -80.86401 East Palestine (specifically the site of the wreck) is at 40.83642 -80.52180 Jump on Google maps, or Acme Mapper, or whatever satellite image program you prefer and follow the line across. Note the locations of curves, and especially note the existence of vegetation. As noted, even in winter, trees and underbrush provide a pretty substantial view block. A look at the topo map will also show numerous cuts and places where the line winds around hills. Seeing 25 cars back isn't going to be all that easy.
East Palestine (specifically the site of the wreck) is at 40.83642 -80.52180
Jump on Google maps, or Acme Mapper, or whatever satellite image program you prefer and follow the line across. Note the locations of curves, and especially note the existence of vegetation. As noted, even in winter, trees and underbrush provide a pretty substantial view block.
A look at the topo map will also show numerous cuts and places where the line winds around hills.
Seeing 25 cars back isn't going to be all that easy.
Reality is a female dog!
To Note; and some observations, from the 'Media' reportage on the wreck scene in E. Palestine, Oh.
It has been reported that the NS Train had traveled some 20 miles (?) fromm the location of its last 'hot box' detector(?). The 'defect was becoming so 'prominent' that at severaql locations it was picked up on local businesses cameras. as well as several individuals 'ring- door bell cameras(?) Today, it was noted that 'the crew' had received a 'warning' as the train was entering the area of the crossings in E. Palestine. Appare4ntly, because of that 'warning' the 'engineer' made an emergency brake application*(?). The 'drone footage' seems to indicate that as that applicaton took place; the cars within the train began to 'accordian', and derailed within the community limits (?). All this is shown in the drone footage accompanying the media reporting. And of course, the'media' is spinning the whole episode, "...who's responsible for the 'burning of the accident scene, and the oliticians are wither there or keeping their distances...It has to be a reality that NS's 'Insurance' is going totake whatever 'hit' they can handle. Porportedly, that coverage, has been noted to be somewhere in the $1 Billion dollar per incident range(*?)...All that will get thrashed out in the aftermath by government, politicians, and courts... All should go on for some time(??).
Read the NTSB preliminary report. It varies from your description as it is taken from real data.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
tree68Salem is at 40.90104 -80.86401 East Palestine (specifically the site of the wreck) is at 40.83642 -80.52180 Jump on Google maps, or Acme Mapper, or whatever satellite image program you prefer and follow the line across. Note the locations of curves, and especially note the existence of vegetation. As noted, even in winter, trees and underbrush provide a pretty substantial view block. A look at the topo map will also show numerous cuts and places where the line winds around hills. Seeing 25 cars back isn't going to be all that easy.
Salem is at 40.90104 -80.86401
There's a lot of curves where you can't see back more than 12 or 15 cars because of the overgrowth of vegetation. There's only a few places anymore that I can look back and see more than that. Even then, the further back the less you can tell if something's wrong. And should the wind be wrong, it will blow any smoke or dust underneath the car.
Once they stopped maintaing communication and signal line pole lines, they just let the vegetation take over the right of way.
Jeff
adkrr64I suppose it is possible that there may have been one or two locations where the one crew member on the failing side might have been able to catch a glimpse of something 25 cars back (the other crew member won't see anything, so the opportunity to spot something was only available to one crew member, not both). I'll wait for the final report, but I have a hard time buying any assertions that crew member inattention had any part in this.
To see much of anyting, there has to be a curve. And then it is much easier to see along the inside of the curve; and impossible to see anything on the outside. So yes, it is the person in the cab on the inside of curves who looks for fire flying.
And from the outside of the curve, the view gets better as you get further from the cars you are looking at because you are seeing the cars more as a direct side view rather than nearly an end view if they are close to you. But as the vew gets better perspective from the distance into the cuve turning the car, that also increases the distance, so that works against the view quality as it gets too far to see.
Why didn't some fine upstanding railfan report the "smoke and fire and jello"!
How a ring camera works is they're motion activated or whenever their button gets pushed. So this camera saw something bright enough for it to automatically turn on and record and then save the footage. It did all of this automatically with no input from the homeowner whatsoever.
Plus the NTSB report saying that for over 60 miles the axle temperature of the car in question had been going upwards. This whole accident was preventable if the crew had been alerted and allowed to investigate the problem. The most interesting thing is the crew isn't currently catching heat from NS it's all falling on their dispatchers.
Euclid... That is why I said, “If they had looked back when the view was not blocked…”
Euc - you need to ride some trains to figure out what can be seen and at what distance.
NTSB reports the suspect car was 23rd from the two engines, thus somewhere between 1800 & 2000 feet from where a crew member could view it.
EuclidThat is why I said, “If they had looked back when the view was not blocked…”
See ADK64's comments on the topic. He covers it quite well.
tree68 Euclid [If they had looked back when the view was not blocked, it would have been impossible for them not to see the problem 25 cars back] Key point: when the view was not blocked. Please point out where that might be. As has been noted, even on a curve, 25 cars back may not be visible. Euclid [I am referring to watching the 25 cars from the locomotive. The only relevance of the video is that it shows us the failing bearing that caused the wreck] Again, what indicates that the hot bearing was ever visible from the locomotive 25 cars away?
Euclid [If they had looked back when the view was not blocked, it would have been impossible for them not to see the problem 25 cars back]
Key point: when the view was not blocked. Please point out where that might be. As has been noted, even on a curve, 25 cars back may not be visible.
Euclid [I am referring to watching the 25 cars from the locomotive. The only relevance of the video is that it shows us the failing bearing that caused the wreck]
Again, what indicates that the hot bearing was ever visible from the locomotive 25 cars away?
The problem with limiting train size...instead of of one large train hauling hazmat you have several shorter trains all hauling hazmat. More trains, more chances of accidents.
Shadow the Cats owner Jim the car was throwing enough fire for a ring doorbell 2 blocks away from the tracks at night to activate on a darkened porch. If the crew had bothered to look behind them in a curve they would have seen the fire coming off the freaking car itself moving with the train.
Jim the car was throwing enough fire for a ring doorbell 2 blocks away from the tracks at night to activate on a darkened porch. If the crew had bothered to look behind them in a curve they would have seen the fire coming off the freaking car itself moving with the train.
Unless there's another video I don't know about, it didn't "activate a ring doorbell camera." The camera was a security camera that is apparently on all the time because the video starts before the effected car is visible. It's also operating in night vision mode - have you ever seen even modestly bright objects in such a video? To the naked eye the sprkrs coming off that railcar would have been nowhere near that bright. In fact, a lot of that brightness would have been in the infrared range, which of course humans can't see but security cameras can.
Preliminary NTSB Report
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Documents/RRD23MR005%20East%20Palestine%20OH%20Prelim.pdf?fbclid=IwAR32DHLAjqacuNtaabYznHEuK85sIYMsxTs2tv1cwMBWjyVRjBAgXU_R2b8
7j43k Goodtiming An engineer slowed and stopped the train after getting a “critical audible alarm message,” according to a preliminary report by the National Transportation Safety Board. The crew then saw fire and smoke and alerted dispatch of a possible derailment, the report said. If there was a derailment (which there was), it seems to me the air line would have parted, and the front of the train stopped without any input from the engineer. Am I missing something? Ed
Goodtiming An engineer slowed and stopped the train after getting a “critical audible alarm message,” according to a preliminary report by the National Transportation Safety Board. The crew then saw fire and smoke and alerted dispatch of a possible derailment, the report said.
An engineer slowed and stopped the train after getting a “critical audible alarm message,” according to a preliminary report by the National Transportation Safety Board. The crew then saw fire and smoke and alerted dispatch of a possible derailment, the report said.
If there was a derailment (which there was), it seems to me the air line would have parted, and the front of the train stopped without any input from the engineer.
Am I missing something?
Ed
Read the actual report, not just the news page. It does not say he slowed and stopped the train. The alarm message instructed him to slow and stop the train. The engineer began the process ("engineer increased the dynamic brake application to further slow and stop the train"), but before he got it stopped an automatic brake application initiated (due to the derail).
Please take a look at the end view image of a freight car (a box car in this case):
https://digital.hagley.org/PRR_18475
US rails are 4' 8" apart. Rail cars are around 10' 6" apart. That leave about 3 feet of overhang on each side. The wheel journals are somewhat outside of the rails, but still positioned well underneath the car body.
On tangent track, most, if not all, of the sparking would be obscured from the crew view by the carbody of not only the failing car, but all the other preceeeding cars. As has been pointed out by others, 25 cars back is far enough where visibility will be significantly obscured by any vegetation when rouding a curve, and even then the journal is still partially obscured by the car body.
I suppose it is possible that there may have been one or two locations where the one crew member on the failing side might have been able to catch a glimpse of something 25 cars back (the other crew member won't see anything, so the opportunity to spot something was only available to one crew member, not both). I'll wait for the final report, but I have a hard time buying any assertions that crew member inattention had any part in this.
I earlier said that the failed car was the 25th car. Seeing the mention that it was the 23rd prompted me to re-examine the load list.
The car was on the 25th LINE. I now suspect that Line 1 and Line 2 were the locomotives. Thus Line 25 would be the 23rd CAR.
EAST PALESTINE, Ohio (AP) — The crew operating a freight train that derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, did not receive a critical warning about an overheated axle until just before dozens of cars went off the tracks, federal safety investigators said in a report Thursday.
The axle investigators are focused on had been heating up as the train went down the tracks, but did not reach the threshold for stopping the train and inspecting it until just before the derailment, the report said. The train was going about 47 mph (75 kph) at the time, just under the speed limit of 50 mph (80 kph), according to safety investigators
https://wtop.com/national/2023/02/buttigieg-visits-east-palestine-ohio-train-derailment-site/
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