What are the rules for classifying a train as "Hazardous"? And why wasn't that one classified as hazardous?
Trains aren't classified as "hazardous", the material being transported is either hazardous or it's not, as determined by the Department of Transportation. There are 9 classifications for hazardous materials (Explosives, Gases, Flammable Liquids, Flammable Solids, Oxidizers, Poisons, Radioactive, Corrosives and Other Regulated Materials) and the vehicle/vessel/container used in transportation (train, air, ship or highway) must be placarded or labeled. This also depends on how much (pounds, gallons or cubic feet) is being transported. Placards and or labels aren't required until certain amounts are exceeded.
Trains/Trucks/Ships/Aircraft transport hazardous materials hourly. Whether it's a tank car, hopper, boxcar, semi-trailer, tank trailer, delivery truck, van, etc., if the solid, liquid or gas is classified as a hazardous material and it exceeds a certain amount, it must be identified.
The identification placard or label is a quick reference. All trains/trucks/ships/aircraft also have manifests, bills of lading, shipping papers, etc that specifically identifies the material with further detailed information.
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I did read somewhere that this particular train did not receive a higher hazardous cargo classification because fewer than half the cars on the train contained hazardous material.
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I also saw a security camera video where that train went by in the background. The car with the bad wheel bearing was obviously on fire, quite spectacularly throwing sparks. The article said the railroad used to have hotbox detectors ever 20 miles, but they are not mandated by law and the railroad has cut back on the guys who maintained them, adding that task to the signal maintainers who are overworked anyway.
The detector near where the video showed flames and sparks apparently would electronically notify the train crew of the problem. I guess the guys in the cab didn't know. Oh, my kingdom for a caboose!
The threshold we had was 20 or more placarded tank cars of particular types or one or more toxic inhalation cars.
A version of this type of restriction has been in place since the late 1980's. The restrictions are pretty much standard across the whole railroad industry, might even be set by Federal law.
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MisterBeasleyThe article said the railroad used to have hotbox detectors ever 20 miles, but they are not mandated by law and the railroad has cut back on the guys who maintained them, adding that task to the signal maintainers who are overworked anyway. The detector near where the video showed flames and sparks apparently would electronically notify the train crew of the problem. I guess the guys in the cab didn't know. Oh, my kingdom for a caboose!
From what I have read, it went by two detectors, both functioned as intended. The first detector detects hot journals and the bearing had not heated up enough to generate an automatic warning to the crew. It did note the journal was warmer than normal. The second detector detected dragging equipment and it did broadcast a warning but the journal had failed by then and was most likely dragging because it was already derailed.
Thanks for bringing up this timely topic. I thought about doing likewise, but could easily see it get political. Just sad that such a place became the site for another industrial accident.
Whether it could have been prevented is something I cannot mention since not having worked on a railroad. Nonetheless, quite interestesting to read how consists of nearly two miles are far from the exception.
More food for thought: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/feb/11/ohio-train-derailment-wake-up-call
Chemicals carried in the derailment that caught fire:https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/15/climate/ohio-train-fire-toxic-chemicals.html
Not trying to stir ANY pots, but merely inform folks about what happened beyond: just another derailment.
There's quite a bit more discussion of this at the Trains forum:
https://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/294698.aspx
Maybe the moderator could move this thread to the prototype for modeler's category?
Cheers, Ed
MisterBeasleyOh, my kingdom for a caboose!
I hear what you're saying, but a caboose crew may not have been much use in the era of "Monster Trains." They may not been able to see the flames from the failing axle anyway. Two mile long trains are pretty much the norm now as I understand it. Personally I think they're a bad idea but the Class 1's haven't asked me.
Back in the day when cabooses were being eliminated tests were done and crews can't really see anything in any detail more than 25 or so cars away. the visibility is entirely dependent on where they are, what the track alignment is, the time of day, the weather and what they are looking for.
If a car has a problem on the east side and the conductor is sitting on the west side of the caboose, it could be the car right in front of the caboose and he'd never see it. If it's a problem under the car and the conductor is in a traaditional cupola, he might never see it.
I have personally stopped 20-30 car locals that had occupied caboose and engine that had sticking brakes and were merrily showering sparks down the railroad. The crew never saw or smelled the sparks.
Yes, an occupied caboose seems like a great solution. In reality, not so much.
I saw a youtube vid by a CSX guy. He did not know anything specific about the accident but he showed a detector that malfunctioned falsely reporting a hot wheel. He said there can be bearing and wheel detectors together or just one type of detector. The shower of sparks with cars not appearing to lean are not due to a broken axle, but a lock up of the brakes and therefore the wheels.
His information about where the detectors were was different and all I can say is we are still in the fog of war regarding what is true.
The zig zag stacking of the railcars indicate an emergency stop.
Eventually the NTSB will tell us if the detectors worked and the engineer ignored them or the problem occured between detectors.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
I keep hearing that this derailment will cost NS big time.
Russell
Actually, FRA requirement is one every 50 miles. What is in place is every 15-20 miles, whch gives the railroad a chance to fix a malfunctioning detetctor without shutting down the whole line as the detectors on either side will meet the requirement
Read an article about DoT secretary's letter to N&S CEO. Here it is in full:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1NvzFpA2_YTbj7yaCQagG6uq-OkgtpN3m/view
Scathing is an understatement. Perhaps this is the clarian all for N&S and industry to undergo much needed reform to put people ahead of profits. Crank up the lobbyists to waterdown anything. Rinse and repeat.
DonRicardo What are the rules for classifying a train as "Hazardous"? And why wasn't that one classified as hazardous?
I assume you're asking this because of the discussion of the rescinded ECP brake rule. The ECP provision (rescinded congruent to the 2015 FAST Act) was a small part of the Enhanced Tank Car Standards and Operational Controls for High-Hazard Flammable Trains from 2015. The rule defined "high-hazard flammable trains" (HHFT) and "high-hazard flammable unit trains" (HHFUT). The ECP brake rule only applied to HHFUTs which are were trains comprised of 70 or more loaded tank cars containing Class 3 flammable liquids traveling at greater than 30 mph.
Since this discussion has to do with the prototype, not models, I'm moving it to the Trains Forum.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
It's a sad day for what used to be America when a sitting Secretary of Transportation resorts to bluster and threats to obtain what, from what I've read, NS is voluntarily engaging in and doing.
Look for strict scrutiny to be applied to finding those "safety violations" whether or not they contributed to the accident, and to any EPA determinations. I suspect there is already some organized 'gearing up' to find the controlled release merely expedient to re-opening the line quickly.
I'm waiting with great interest to read the NTSB preliminary report, which among other things will document the testing of the 'relief valves that wouldn't relieve' and the precise nature of the axle 'failure'. Both those things are of evident great concern for the investigators not to 'prematurely disclose'.
BigDaddyThe zig zag stacking of the railcars indicate an emergency stop.
I would opine that the accordian stacking of the cars is indicative of a sudden stop - as in one of the cars "dug in" and the cars behind it had nowhere to go.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
EPA just announced that they were taking over the cleanup
If this was an accident you'd never think so given the harsh words from EPA administrator Michael Regan.."Norfolk Southern will pay for cleaning up the mess that they created and for the trauma that they inflicted". Maybe I missed where they said this was an intentional act of terror on the part of NS or the train crew. I haven't heard anything to suggest this was an intentional act.. in fact no one knows at this point what caused the accident. It could have been sabotage.. my opinion.. people are rushing to judgement.. again.
diningcarEPA just announced that they were taking over the cleanup
No matter which organization is the Authority for the clean up. I will not be easy and when all is said and done - it will not be clean. Politics will NEVER LET it be clean.
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I think the key phrase here is "stuff happens."
Clearly, we want to know what happened. From that comes two things - could it have been prevented, and what do we have to do to prevent it from happening again.
And we can't forget that the best laid plans of mice and men, etc, etc...
I'm starting to detect a pattern here. Mice and men... stuff happens ... best laid plans. Oh those darn laws of physics again....
Euclid I'm starting to detect a pattern here. Mice and men... stuff happens ... best laid plans. Oh those darn laws of physics again....
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Murphy Siding Euclid I'm starting to detect a pattern here. Mice and men... stuff happens ... best laid plans. Oh those darn laws of physics again.... ... money can't buy happiness but it can buy a congressman...
... money can't buy happiness but it can buy a congressman...
I will have to add that to the list. Money can also buy the correct tool for the job.
Euclid Money can also buy the correct tool for the job.
A hammer is the correct tool for driving a nail, but people still manage to find their thumb from time to time...
It can also buy a political party (party hats are extra)
Platitudes and cliches abound with those who choose to trivialize rail safety. Predictable. Fortunately many others (especially those with power) see a real need to force safety measures on the irresponsible railroads.
charlie hebdo Euclid I'm starting to detect a pattern here. Mice and men... stuff happens ... best laid plans. Oh those darn laws of physics again.... Platitudes and cliches abound with those who choose to trivialize rail safety. Predictable. Fortunately many others (especially those with power) see a real need to force safety measures on the irresponsible railroads.
No investigation yet to determine what happened and mistakes made. No one would argue that safety is paramount, but suggesting that railroads are irresponsible is a bit harsh and premature. Quite possibly something was overlooked..somebody didn't do his/her job properly, and here we are. At this point we don't know. Sometimes mechanical failures are hard to predict..I got a flat on a brand new tire a couple of weeks ago. Tire was properly inflated..I was driving carefully on a dry road when it happened. Whose fault? I could have lost control and swerved into a crowded bus stop...whose fault would that have been? We live in a dangerous world, and our comfy lifestyles require the transport of hazardous materials at speed.. it may have been directly due to someone's negligence..or..as likely, it was due to an unpredictable failure of a component somewhere along the line. They're called accidents for a reason..no one meant for this to happen.
Ulrich charlie hebdo Euclid I'm starting to detect a pattern here. Mice and men... stuff happens ... best laid plans. Oh those darn laws of physics again.... Platitudes and cliches abound with those who choose to trivialize rail safety. Predictable. Fortunately many others (especially those with power) see a real need to force safety measures on the irresponsible railroads. No investigation yet to determine what happened and mistakes made. No one would argue that safety is paramount, but suggesting that railroads are irresponsible is a bit harsh and premature. Quite possibly something was overlooked..somebody didn't do his/her job properly, and here we are. At this point we don't know. Sometimes mechanical failures are hard to predict..I got a flat on a brand new tire a couple of weeks ago. Tire was properly inflated..I was driving carefully on a dry road when it happened. Whose fault? I could have lost control and swerved into a crowded bus stop...whose fault would that have been? We live in a dangerous world, and our comfy lifestyles require the transport of hazardous materials at speed.. it may have been directly due to someone's negligence..or..as likely, it was due to an unpredictable failure of a component somewhere along the line. They're called accidents for a reason..no one meant for this to happen.
Investigation has been taking place ever since people were allowed on to the wreck scene. They just aren't wearing clothing identifying them as a part of some Agency you think should be investigating. On wreck scenes, I have never seen anyone wearing clothing BRAZENLY identifying them as NTSB or some other agency - they are there, they don't advertise.
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