BaltACDPart is dependent upon speed and part is dependent upon loading - the heavier the car is loaded the more pressure it is placing on the bearing. With nominal maximum load being 286K upon 4 axles per car and each axle having 2 journals that ends up being 35,750 pounds per journal. A somewhat substantial load per journal.
Yep.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
NS has done very poorly on the PR aspects of this incident from the start and they don't seem to be getting any better.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
ns145 My big question is why this particular train didn't get stopped. I'm sure NS wish they had stopped 32N now, but hindsight is 20/20.
USA Today, IMO, has done a commendable job charting how PSR has prioritized shareholder return over operational safety in this piece.
USAToday.com
I know journalists in general tend to get a lot of criticism here, for being misguided, but I feel they have hit a home run on this one.
Convicted One USA Today, IMO, has done a commendable job charting how PSR has prioritized shareholder return over operational safety in this piece. USAToday.com
That and the entire enviromential disaster that is happening from the burned slashed chemicals all in that area. NS is looking at a disaster that is going to make 3 Mile Island look like a fart right now and is so far behind in the PR battle they can not see daylight from where they are in the hole. Let alone the US Department of Transportation and their response to allowing stuff like this to happen at the FRA when the railroads are pushing for less men in the cab and overall. Their push for PTC is looking like a failure on stopping crashes. It may if the railroads have the manpower to maintain the trains instead of buying back their stocks to pump up their earnings.
A few points and a question.
1. Has it been reported yet the car number and ownership of the car which derailed? Was that car carrying the chemicals or was it another car? The reason I ask is if it was the chemical carrying car then it was probably not owned by NS or another railroad. Most chemical carrying cars, particularly tank cars are owned by leasing companies and leased to the chemical companies.
2. The report will investigate and outline the details which led to this accident. Yes, it will take some time, but the report will be quite detailed.
3. Would this accident have occured with a shorter train? I have no idea. Sounds like it was the 12th car. In that case a shorter train would have derailed. I do not know enough physics to attempt to calculate if the heavier train would have resulted in a more serious accident. Perhaps someone here can assist.
4. I reported here a conversation which was on radio scanner (dispatcher to crew) that the train had "trended hot" at previous detector. That was 2nd hand info but seemed to come from a reliable source.
5. Yesterday NS had two trains with sticking brakes which were "trending hot" which were stopped and inspected here in NW Indiana (Chesterton). Neither was caught by the automatic detector but did receive a radio transmission from "wayside" to the crew. Actually one was spotted by a welder and reported to train crew. So, is NS always been serious about "trending hot" cars or are they cracking down now there was a horrible accident? If the car was "trending hot" but wasnt stopped...that is a serious safety breech in my opinion. Again this is based on second hand information which I heard on a scanner which makes it probably about 5th hand info.
6. Just as the accident in California in the late 2000's led to regulations and investments of $billions in PTC, my guess / prediction is this will lead to massive regulations on chemical transportation and possibly length of train. This is a very juicy situation for politicians and commentators. I read a blog this morning reaching back to blame this on Republican deregulation and Ronald Reagan. "Never waste a good crisis." Actually didnt the deregulation begin in the Carter administration? THIS IS NOT TO BE POLITICAL...just factual. If it in violation of our rules, let me know and I will delete.
Ed
It seems the residents of Eadt Palestine are fed up with the BS from the NS railroad, which didn't beven attend a twon meeting.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/15/us/ohio-train-derailment-east-palestine-residents/index.html
ECP may have been able to stop the rest of the train some amount faster than pneumatic brakes, but would that have made a difference in the end?
If only 40 cars had piled up instead of 50? If those 40 (or 30, or whatever) cars still included the hazmat, the end effect would be the same.
I don't know what track speed is through that area. Regardless, there's a lot of momentum, and the laws of physics aren't changed by ECP. One only need go back to the well-known tornado video, where even though it was clear that the trainline was broken, the remaining train had not visibly slowed by the time it ran into the locomotive that was shooting the video.
Even with ECP, braking takes time.
As for burning off the spillage - it probably spread the pollutants out some by dispersing them into the atmosphere. What's in the ground will take a long time (or a lot of digging) to dissipate.
Euclid As I understand it: The proposal to do the control burn to eliminate the open pools of spilled chemicals was conceived of, and strongly advocated by NS. The Governors of Ohio and Pennsylvania deferred to the judgment of NS and approved the plan. But after the act had been executed, both Governors began to have second thoughts about whether the controlled burn was the right thing to do. Perhaps NS was entirely motivated to get their line reopened and the controlled burn was the best idea to accomplish their goal, but not the best for public safety. Now, both Governors have changed their mind, and say that the controlled burn was a mistake, and should not have been done. Both are contemplating joining in a law suit against NS.
The real choice was either a controlled release and burn of a very hazardous substance or a series of uncontrolled, and potentially catastrophic, BLEVE explosions as each vinyl chlroride tank car "popped" off from the heat of the fires. NS probably made the right choice, but that is not going to satisfy the residents nor should it. NS is in the middle of a PR and environmental crapstorm that will be very hard to put behind them no matter how diligent they are with the cleanup and followup monitoring. Changes will definitely be coming to the industry, if for no other reason than to mollify the public.
I'm not seeing the PSR angle here, other than that the railroad industry has ticked off so many people for so long that there is no longer any good will left. The train was only about 7,700-8,000 feet long. Not huge by today's standards. NS' practice of alerting trains with subcritical problems is actually more proactive than is required. And they have been doing that for some time now. The only PSR line of attack I can possibly see is if NS cut down on inspections and maintenance of the hotbox detector equipment and it is found that it wasn't working correctly on the day of the accident. Another possibility is if the wayside detector center staff were told to ignore their normal procedures for this particular train because the crew was running on short time, PSR-related congestion, etc.
Now reading NS statement about the East Palestine Town Hall Meeting. NS was told by the local police that they couldn't guarantee the safety of NS personnel if they came to the meeting. NS wisely chose not to attend. William Vantunono's comments in this morning's (2/16) Rail Group News from Railway Age seems to present a balanced view of what has happened so far. There is a description there of the amount that NS has set up for a relief fund - which I have not read anywhere else plus the equipment donated to the fire department and the number of air quality monitors provided by NS. Which I also have not read about anywhere else. He's criticizing how this event has become politicized and goes after both CNN and Fox's presentations so I think Vantunono was trying to present a balanced view. Yes, it's the rail industry's view, but to be fair also needs to be heard. And for BaltACD view's on NS' PR, I think they did better than CSX's handling of the 1986 Miamisburg, Ohio disaster. CSX didn't have the internet and other social media to deal with at that time and still failed. The cause of the Miamisburg one was completely preventable.
Again, I ask...who owned the car and what was the maintennace record on that car?
I am not letting NS off the hook, but typically railcars have a 30-40 year shelf life. Was the derailed car a tank car? If so, who owned it? What caused the derailment?
One can blame PSR all you want, but until all questions are addressed we will not know.
MP173One can blame PSR all you want, but until all questions are addressed we will not know.
I interpret the finger pointing at "PSR " as recognizing the corporate culture where operating ratio trumps operational best practices. That sort of thing.
Prove that it does
Well, the "blame game" has begun and is entering full swing. The trial lawyers are sharpening their knives. Democrats in Congress are blaming Repubs for "relaxing regulation". Both sides are homing in on PSR.
But there is something that Democrats and Republicans alike seem to completely miss. They just can't see it or perhaps they don't WANT to see it.
Railroads, just like any other business in America, have to make a profit or they will go bye-bye. It's not just greed alone. One of the reasons they try so hard to cut costs is because they face extreme competitive pressure from long-haul, over the road trucking, which enjoys taxpayer-funded highways to drive on.
The playing field is NOT level and probably hasn't been since at least the 1920s. I know, I know, truckers pay taxes but do they pay enough tax to compensate for their damage and wear and tear to the highways? I just don't believe they do.
EuclidSince this Palestine disaster, I have noticed an explosion of articles online that cite the wreck as validating what the anti-PSR movement has been advocating all along lately. This wreck and its widespread news coverage is a golden gift to that movement.
Do you anticipate that this disaster will be able to stall the impetus towards one-man crews?
MP173 Again, I ask...who owned the car and what was the maintennace record on that car? I am not letting NS off the hook, but typically railcars have a 30-40 year shelf life. Was the derailed car a tank car? If so, who owned it? What caused the derailment? <SNIP> Ed
<SNIP>
Convicted One Euclid Since this Palestine disaster, I have noticed an explosion of articles online that cite the wreck as validating what the anti-PSR movement has been advocating all along lately. This wreck and its widespread news coverage is a golden gift to that movement. Do you anticipate that this disaster will be able to stall the impetus towards one-man crews?
Euclid Since this Palestine disaster, I have noticed an explosion of articles online that cite the wreck as validating what the anti-PSR movement has been advocating all along lately. This wreck and its widespread news coverage is a golden gift to that movement.
BEAUSABREProve that it does
If you're asking me to produce a smoking gun, I cannot do this, because the operatives cover their tracks well enough such that blatent evidence is not left laying around.
But, being slightly facetious just for effect, is there any doubt that shorter trains with a brakeman riding in the cupola of a caboose at the end of the train would have been able to see something was wrong over the last 20 miles of travel?
Even if defective maintenance of a privately owned car proves to be the cause of this, that IMO would only be contributory negligence. Once under the care and custody of the railroad, the railroad is the one with primary responsibility for expertise within their own domain.
Sure, everybody will get sued, but I don't see defective car maintenance as exculpating the railroad, in any way
ns145 Euclid As I understand it: The proposal to do the control burn to eliminate the open pools of spilled chemicals was conceived of, and strongly advocated by NS. The Governors of Ohio and Pennsylvania deferred to the judgment of NS and approved the plan. But after the act had been executed, both Governors began to have second thoughts about whether the controlled burn was the right thing to do. Perhaps NS was entirely motivated to get their line reopened and the controlled burn was the best idea to accomplish their goal, but not the best for public safety. Now, both Governors have changed their mind, and say that the controlled burn was a mistake, and should not have been done. Both are contemplating joining in a law suit against NS.
MP173 Again, I ask...who owned the car and what was the maintennace record on that car? I am not letting NS off the hook, but typically railcars have a 30-40 year shelf life. Was the derailed car a tank car? If so, who owned it? What caused the derailment? One can blame PSR all you want, but until all questions are addressed we will not know. Ed
Here is the car listing that the NTSB has released: https://response.epa.gov/sites/15933/files/TRAIN%2032N%20-%20EAST%20PALESTINE%20-%20derail%20list%20Norfolk%20Southern%20document.pdf
Based on the Salem, OH video, it appears that line 25 was the car with the overheated bearing: GPLX 75465. It was the second hopper car in front of the block of tank cars. GPLX is a reporting mark used by GATX corporation.
Euclid ns145 Euclid As I understand it: The proposal to do the control burn to eliminate the open pools of spilled chemicals was conceived of, and strongly advocated by NS. The Governors of Ohio and Pennsylvania deferred to the judgment of NS and approved the plan. But after the act had been executed, both Governors began to have second thoughts about whether the controlled burn was the right thing to do. Perhaps NS was entirely motivated to get their line reopened and the controlled burn was the best idea to accomplish their goal, but not the best for public safety. Now, both Governors have changed their mind, and say that the controlled burn was a mistake, and should not have been done. Both are contemplating joining in a law suit against NS.
If the flaming car was only 12 cars behind the engines and flaming as badly as has been shown on the various videos - I have to question why the crew didn't see it for the alledged 20 mile until the incident. Aren't NS crews required to at least look back over their train as the round curves. In as much as railroads built their lines along some form of waterway to utilize the 'water level' grades through the country side - there are curves. 12 cars and 2 engines is nominally less than 1000 feet - What did the crew see and when did the see it?
When one makes a decision, we come to know the outcome of that particular decision - what would have happened if the alternate decision had been made will never be known.
Under AAR guidelines for interchangeable cars any defects found and repaired by the railroad that find them are billed to the owners. The railroads used to have carmen that looked for then repaired what they found as a source of revenue for the railroads. Nowadays the cars are barely looked at. We've seen it in the condition that the resin hoppers show up in. Just 5 years ago we never got them in with bent steps or railings or grab irons or leaking hatches. Now we celebrate if we get one that isn't beat to hell and back.
Fred M Cain Well, the "blame game" has begun and is entering full swing. The trial lawyers are sharpening their knives. Democrats in Congress are blaming Repubs for "relaxing regulation". Both sides are homing in on PSR. But there is something that Democrats and Republicans alike seem to completely miss. They just can't see it or perhaps they don't WANT to see it. Railroads, just like any other business in America, have to make a profit or they will go bye-bye. It's not just greed alone. One of the reasons they try so hard to cut costs is because they face extreme competitive pressure from long-haul, over the road trucking, which enjoys taxpayer-funded highways to drive on. The playing field is NOT level and probably hasn't been since at least the 1920s. I know, I know, truckers pay taxes but do they pay enough tax to compensate for their damage and wear and tear to the highways? I just don't believe they do.
And the "s**t happens" game is close behind.
There is something wrong with a system in which responsibility for much of car maintenance is laid at the feet of owners but operated with bad bearings and flat spots in wheels by various railroads. What could go wrong? Apoarently plenty.
Looking at the satellite image of the area, there's a long, lazy S curve to the west of East Palestine - unless the view was blocked by woods, both should have had an opportunity to glance back.
And perhaps they did - earlier, before the axle lit off.
It appears that there are other opportunities between Salem and East Palestine. But that's just a take based on what can be discerned by the satellite images.
We don't know when the crew was made aware of the over-warm report. One would certainly think they would have looked back then.
Governor Shapiro discussed the arrogance with which NS acts toward local communities.
charlie hebdo Governor Shapiro discussed the arrogance with which NS acts toward local communities.
NS's PR efforts on this incident are becoming legendary - for all the wrong reasons.
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