jeffhergert I was watching a news analysis show (Most shows on the cable news networks are analysis, not reporting, of news.) There was a guest that said the problem is that pipelines are the safest way to ship liquid/gas products. That the current administration, et.al., don't like pipelines. What the "expert" doesn't realize, the volumes to the end user of these loads doesn't warrant a pipeline. At some point these loads will move via land transport. It's things like this that make me see coverage becoming more political, agenda driven. Jeff
I was watching a news analysis show (Most shows on the cable news networks are analysis, not reporting, of news.) There was a guest that said the problem is that pipelines are the safest way to ship liquid/gas products. That the current administration, et.al., don't like pipelines.
What the "expert" doesn't realize, the volumes to the end user of these loads doesn't warrant a pipeline. At some point these loads will move via land transport.
It's things like this that make me see coverage becoming more political, agenda driven.
Jeff
It is all very polarized with opposing agendas. It is in every issue that people hear about. It is in the balloons, the war, and certainly this derailment. With the derailment, the agendas are still grappling over how to get hold of it. The story was sleeping for the first week as we dealt with the balloons. But suddenly the story blew up (so to speak).
It seems that the Administration stayed back because the disaster was full of controversy, and they did not want to risk getting blamed for it. But now they are getting blamed for staying out of it and not coming in to help. I expect they will soon come rushing in to take over the whole site with all the care imaginable. That could go in many different directions at once.
I expect a sort of replay of the way the first spy balloon was handled. Keep it quiet, hoping it will go away. But it did not stay quiet. It blew up with controversy, so they shot it down to change the optics. It will be interesting to see how this same dynamic will apply to this chemical spill.
The only way to secure and maintain a "news" audience these days is to create a confirmation bias echo chamber.
Murphy Siding zugmann Euclid Also, spilled liquid chemicals are bound to leach/percolate into the ground unless it is frozen. So the entire roadbed should be underlain with a liquid proof membrane that will catch any spilled liquid. That way, when a liquid chemical spill occurs, it will flow down into this containment defined by the membrane. Then special excavating and vacuum equipment will remove all track, ballast, and soils above the membrane. In this way, every drop of the spilled chemical will be recovered and safely handled. How would you deal with drainage of stuff like .... rain? With a pipeline. Lord knows people love pipelines.
zugmann Euclid Also, spilled liquid chemicals are bound to leach/percolate into the ground unless it is frozen. So the entire roadbed should be underlain with a liquid proof membrane that will catch any spilled liquid. That way, when a liquid chemical spill occurs, it will flow down into this containment defined by the membrane. Then special excavating and vacuum equipment will remove all track, ballast, and soils above the membrane. In this way, every drop of the spilled chemical will be recovered and safely handled. How would you deal with drainage of stuff like .... rain?
Euclid Also, spilled liquid chemicals are bound to leach/percolate into the ground unless it is frozen. So the entire roadbed should be underlain with a liquid proof membrane that will catch any spilled liquid. That way, when a liquid chemical spill occurs, it will flow down into this containment defined by the membrane. Then special excavating and vacuum equipment will remove all track, ballast, and soils above the membrane. In this way, every drop of the spilled chemical will be recovered and safely handled.
How would you deal with drainage of stuff like .... rain?
With a pipeline. Lord knows people love pipelines.
Murphy SidingWe keep talking about how concerns over monopolistic pricing may cause Congress to re-regulate the railroad industry. The companies shipping these chemicals seem to be some of most vocal parties. Perhaps Congress should look at more regulations on the shipping of chemicals- whether it be buy train, truck or pipeline. If better safety practices meant higher shipping costs, I think a good case could be made that it is worth the investment.
If better safety practices meant higher shipping costs, I think a good case could be made that it is worth the investment.
The thing I find ironic in the companies that are complaining about railroads having pricing power with their customers, is that those same 'customers' have monopolistic pricing power over their own customers.
Pots don't like being heated no matter their size.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
We keep talking about how concerns over monopolistic pricing may cause Congress to re-regulate the railroad industry. The companies shipping these chemicals seem to be some of most vocal parties. Perhaps Congress should look at more regulations on the shipping of chemicals- whether it be buy train, truck or pipeline. If better safety practices meant higher shipping costs, I think a good case could be made that it is worth the investment.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
The sad part is with all the political bickering (amazing how everyone is pro-environment this week) and conspiracy theories, the people affected by this will be pushed to the wayside and forgotten as soon as the photo ops are over and the next incident that becomes the media's darling shows up to grasp the 17-second attention span of the average Tiktok user.
*looks in the sky for another balloon*.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
EuclidAlso, spilled liquid chemicals are bound to leach/percolate into the ground unless it is frozen. So the entire roadbed should be underlain with a liquid proof membrane that will catch any spilled liquid. That way, when a liquid chemical spill occurs, it will flow down into this containment defined by the membrane. Then special excavating and vacuum equipment will remove all track, ballast, and soils above the membrane. In this way, every drop of the spilled chemical will be recovered and safely handled.
And we thoguht ECP brakes would be complicated. Whew.
BaltACDRemember, in cases such as this, we will never know the results of the opposite of the decision that WAS made. We don't know if the cars that were a part of the 'controlled burn' would have developed excessive internal pressures and then resulted in multiple BLEVE type uncontrolled explosions and what the results of those explosions would have been.
1) The toxicity and exposure danger of vinyl chloride in open air.
2) The gas/vapor state of the vinyl chloride when controlled explosive vented from the un-breached cars.
3) Whether or not all vinyl chloride burned up and converted to its “ash” compounds as the smoke plume rose, resulting in zero vinyl chloride in the fallout back to the ground.
4) The full description of the highest state-of-the art firefighting apparatus that is available for the best possible control and mitigation of fires of this nature. This would include suppressing and extinguishing the fire as quickly as possible while preventing explosions.
It seems like coverage fas now become nothing more than political posturing and futhering agendas by all sides.
All reasonable coverage seems to have all but ceased. Social media where hyperbole is worse than the regular media has turned a bad situation into a near apocalyptic incident. And now the regular media is following suit.
Meanwhile, politicians change their positions as the political winds change their direction.
It's too bad those Governors didn't let the cars BLEVE. Tank cars rocketing through the air would've looked good on youtube and Facebook.
Euclid charlie hebdo zugmann Euclid The Governors of Ohio and Pennsylvania seem to have expressed the idea that they were pushed into this intentional breach plan by NS, after NS had conceived of the plan and pressed hard for it to be implemented. Immediately afterward, both Governors expressed regret over approving the plan, and said they now believe it was the wrong thing to do. These Governors immediately announced their intent to join together in filing a lawsuit against NS. A lot of words for saying they flip-flopped. Or they simply recognized that the NS personnel didn't have a clue I would not call it a flip flop. The way it was described, the two governors felt like they had been pressured and betrayed by NS into accepting a plan that they have since come to doubt that it was the right thing to do. But I don't think the verdict is in on how dangerous it was. There are probably more shoes to drop. By the way the vinyl chloride is described, I assume that a lot of people were overexposed to it. Also, apparently the chemicals burning on the ground next to the vinyl chloride tanks cars were not vinyl chloride.
charlie hebdo zugmann Euclid The Governors of Ohio and Pennsylvania seem to have expressed the idea that they were pushed into this intentional breach plan by NS, after NS had conceived of the plan and pressed hard for it to be implemented. Immediately afterward, both Governors expressed regret over approving the plan, and said they now believe it was the wrong thing to do. These Governors immediately announced their intent to join together in filing a lawsuit against NS. A lot of words for saying they flip-flopped. Or they simply recognized that the NS personnel didn't have a clue
zugmann Euclid The Governors of Ohio and Pennsylvania seem to have expressed the idea that they were pushed into this intentional breach plan by NS, after NS had conceived of the plan and pressed hard for it to be implemented. Immediately afterward, both Governors expressed regret over approving the plan, and said they now believe it was the wrong thing to do. These Governors immediately announced their intent to join together in filing a lawsuit against NS. A lot of words for saying they flip-flopped.
Euclid The Governors of Ohio and Pennsylvania seem to have expressed the idea that they were pushed into this intentional breach plan by NS, after NS had conceived of the plan and pressed hard for it to be implemented. Immediately afterward, both Governors expressed regret over approving the plan, and said they now believe it was the wrong thing to do. These Governors immediately announced their intent to join together in filing a lawsuit against NS.
A lot of words for saying they flip-flopped.
Or they simply recognized that the NS personnel didn't have a clue
I would not call it a flip flop. The way it was described, the two governors felt like they had been pressured and betrayed by NS into accepting a plan that they have since come to doubt that it was the right thing to do. But I don't think the verdict is in on how dangerous it was. There are probably more shoes to drop. By the way the vinyl chloride is described, I assume that a lot of people were overexposed to it.
Also, apparently the chemicals burning on the ground next to the vinyl chloride tanks cars were not vinyl chloride.
Remember, in cases such as this, we will never know the results of the opposite of the decision that WAS made. We don't know if the cars that were a part of the 'controlled burn' would have developed excessive internal pressures and then resulted in multiple BLEVE type uncontrolled explosions and what the results of those explosions would have been.
MrLynn NittanyLion tree68 There is also the logistical problem of how to know which sensor is in alarm. Somehow we'd have to have a way to reconcile the unique ID to a specific bearing. This one seems pretty easy. The bearing monitors report to a module on the car, which then transmits to the EOT or lineside that there's an overheat condition. It just reports that TILX 342921 is overheated. Does it need to know which bearing is the problem? Even if you do, the car already has an A and B end, so you have an A truck and B truck. You have an inboard and outboard axle. There's a left and right side, using the B end as the "front" of the car. So TILX 342921BIL is a unique identifier that requires no database management or anything outside of the actual module itself. As for power, is there any reason that you couldn't just use one of the axles? You don't need a ton of power to run something like this. If you can't draw power from axle rotations, a small solar panel (6x9 or so) and a long life battery could get it done. This answers many of the objections to sensors on every truck on every car: a train-length cable and unique axle/bearing IDs; signal sent only when heat detected. Sensors powered by small generators on the wheels, like I used to have on my bicycle, recharging a battery. "requires no database management" Love it!
NittanyLion tree68 There is also the logistical problem of how to know which sensor is in alarm. Somehow we'd have to have a way to reconcile the unique ID to a specific bearing. This one seems pretty easy. The bearing monitors report to a module on the car, which then transmits to the EOT or lineside that there's an overheat condition. It just reports that TILX 342921 is overheated. Does it need to know which bearing is the problem? Even if you do, the car already has an A and B end, so you have an A truck and B truck. You have an inboard and outboard axle. There's a left and right side, using the B end as the "front" of the car. So TILX 342921BIL is a unique identifier that requires no database management or anything outside of the actual module itself. As for power, is there any reason that you couldn't just use one of the axles? You don't need a ton of power to run something like this. If you can't draw power from axle rotations, a small solar panel (6x9 or so) and a long life battery could get it done.
tree68 There is also the logistical problem of how to know which sensor is in alarm. Somehow we'd have to have a way to reconcile the unique ID to a specific bearing.
This one seems pretty easy. The bearing monitors report to a module on the car, which then transmits to the EOT or lineside that there's an overheat condition. It just reports that TILX 342921 is overheated. Does it need to know which bearing is the problem? Even if you do, the car already has an A and B end, so you have an A truck and B truck. You have an inboard and outboard axle. There's a left and right side, using the B end as the "front" of the car. So TILX 342921BIL is a unique identifier that requires no database management or anything outside of the actual module itself.
As for power, is there any reason that you couldn't just use one of the axles? You don't need a ton of power to run something like this. If you can't draw power from axle rotations, a small solar panel (6x9 or so) and a long life battery could get it done.
This answers many of the objections to sensors on every truck on every car: a train-length cable and unique axle/bearing IDs; signal sent only when heat detected. Sensors powered by small generators on the wheels, like I used to have on my bicycle, recharging a battery.
"requires no database management" Love it!
A signal sent only when heat is detected? Like when the air brakes are applied?
When possible, we're supposed to refrain from setting air closely approaching or going over a detector. It's possible to "spoof" a hotbox detector. The detectors look for a large spike in heat, but also the overall temps of the whole train. A small difference in heat from a car may not cause a defect alert, but it will send a notice to the "bearing desk" who will track a car over the next detectors.
A brake application could mask that one car is starting to overheat when going over a detector. By the time it reaches the next detector it might be hot enough to have the large spike. Or it might burn off before reaching the next detector.
Royal Dutch Shell's new "Ethane Cracker" is located on an ex P&LE branch now owned by CSX. They will probably get most of the traffic.
Mark
BaltACDAs industry has built itself in the USA, the manufacturing centers and the chemical producing centers have gravitated to different areas of the country because of the various local benefits that make the areas where each exists desireable for what they are producing.
Royal Dutch Shell just opened (Nov. '22) its new "Ethane Cracker" just outside Pittsburgh. Anyone living along much of the former Pennsy main or other routes into the area should get used to having more cars of plastics and related chemicals passing through town.
https://pghindependent.com/royal-dutch-shells-massive-plastics-plant-in-beaver-county-95-complete/
A million tons per year of plastic pellets.
https://www.shell.us/about-us/projects-and-locations/shell-polymers.html
This plant is 22.8 miles away from the wreck site.
Good Luck, Ed
Outsailing86why does it need to be transported a thousand miles? As a whole, we really need to restidy our supply chains people.
Simple: few places have all of the resources needed to make something. There will always be at least one component that has to travel.
I see molten phenol come through my neighborhood all the time. Pretty nasty stuff. It is derived from petroleum, but it is used in such a wide variety of products that it is unlikely that you could locate all of the phenol using production to the oilfields. They're so broad that you've got one company making fighter jet canopies, another making rope, and another making throat spray.
More likely they didn't like the backlash they received from the uneducated, and are worried about next elections votes.
An "expensive model collector"
Outsailing86Sooo here are my question: if vinyl chloride is so dangerous in that state, why does it need to be transported a thousand miles? As a whole, we really need to restidy our supply chains people. Two - sounds like people panicked and were more worried about the car exploding? Being at a derailments, I can say misinform and lack of direction flows fast. Feel bad for everyone on the front lines Was the private tank car the one with the burning axle? Looked like a grain car or box car
if vinyl chloride is so dangerous in that state, why does it need to be transported a thousand miles? As a whole, we really need to restidy our supply chains people.
Two - sounds like people panicked and were more worried about the car exploding? Being at a derailments, I can say misinform and lack of direction flows fast. Feel bad for everyone on the front lines
Was the private tank car the one with the burning axle? Looked like a grain car or box car
As industry has built itself in the USA, the manufacturing centers and the chemical producing centers have gravitated to different areas of the country because of the various local benefits that make the areas where each exists desireable for what they are producing.
The American economy has always been about transporting product between shippers and consignees for the beneift of both as well as the carrier that take part in the movement.
I believe the first shipmnet of product on the B&O was moving barrells of flour from Ellicott Mills where it was milled to Baltimore where it could be made into baked goods for the citizens of Baltimore.
Sooo here are my question:
MVLANDSW--Thank you very much for your response. That's exactly what I was looking for.
EuclidIt seems obvious that railcars full of vinyl chloride are going to occasionally derail, breach, and burn. When this happens, what is the effective means of dealing with it? Is there any way to extinguish the fire? If not, is there no possible concept for a means to extinguish the fire? If there is a concept, is the the cost too high? From what I understand, vinyl chloride is a potent carcinogen that has no safe level for human exposure. What kind of response would have been made if the five cars of vinyl chloride were ripped open in the derailment?
Backshop I wonder how often engine crews turn around to check out their trains nowadays? Maybe our resident engineers could tell us. What with reduced crews, increased workload and all the lineside technology, I wonder if some crews are lax about it. To that can be added that with today's train lengths, they can never see more than maybe 25% of their consist, maybe they just think "why bother".
I wonder how often engine crews turn around to check out their trains nowadays? Maybe our resident engineers could tell us. What with reduced crews, increased workload and all the lineside technology, I wonder if some crews are lax about it. To that can be added that with today's train lengths, they can never see more than maybe 25% of their consist, maybe they just think "why bother".
I can't comment on current engineers but I used to set the rear view mirror so that I could glance back at the train at every right hand curve. At night I would turn off all lights on any trailing units so that any light or spark would be easily visible and an indication of a problem. At places where conditions allowed a longer view I would turn around to give the train a more detailed inspection.
I did have a hotbox burn off once causing a derailment of about 15 cars that destroyed an interlocking. The bad car was 25 cars and 3 units deep in the train but the 25 cars were all 89' auto racks. That was too far back to spot from the locomotive on the curving tree lined right of way, especially in daylight.
This happened less than 20 miles after a defect detector had cleared the train with no defects.
7j43kI am a bit wary of systems that depend on aerial transmission and/or complicated paths for data transmission. THOSE perhaps, could be overlaid over the one above.
And there lies the rub, as they say.
There are already known issues with DPU comms in some cases, and those are going to be bigger, more robust systems with good antennae. A milliwatt system isn't going to cut it.
Electrical power is still going to be an issue. Yes, batteries and solar. Yes, that will cost money to maintain.
As for applying the brakes from the car - you'd have to find an air flow that was enough to overcome the pressure maintaining mechanism in the airbrake system. And do that without putting the train in emergency.
We need a cost/benefit analysis. Pinto, anyone?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Perhaps the reason they quit using the water-cooling method on the tank cars was the runoff getting all over the place, and including some of the contents of the cars. That might explain all the dead fish.
As far as prevention:
I do think the base system could be sensors on or above the trucks that simply trigger a braking of the train. Using the train air line to stop the train. Then "someone" gets to walk the train and deal with it. A benefit of this is that you don't need it on every car for the concept to work. IF it was only on that one car that failed, it still would have stopped the train.
I am a bit wary of systems that depend on aerial transmission and/or complicated paths for data transmission. THOSE perhaps, could be overlaid over the one above.
Ed
EuclidThe Governors of Ohio and Pennsylvania seem to have expressed the idea that they were pushed into this intentional breach plan by NS, after NS had conceived of the plan and pressed hard for it to be implemented. Immediately afterward, both Governors expressed regret over approving the plan, and said they now believe it was the wrong thing to do. These Governors immediately announced their intent to join together in filing a lawsuit against NS.
mudchicken Maybe now the newsworkers and other brainless wonders will back off enough to let FRA and NTSB get into their work without all the hysteria
Something tells me that those pesky videos arenot going to fall into the cracks?
USA TODAY videos
Lady Macbeth: "Out, Out, damn spots!!"
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