blue streak 15. Now if the bad axle had been traveling #4 axle the front locos might have dragged bad hopper some what forward and train rear end might have stopped before hitting bad hopper.? Or, at least a slow speed collision? That would depend on what the engineer might have done? Did he bail the Emergency brake to stretch what was left of his train?
I'm not sure what good shelf couplers would have done; they are no better than normal couplers at restraining accordioning. But imandating shelf couplers for interchange is something I expect to hear the government sources start advocating.
FRA Safety Advisory 2023-01 issued in response to this accident. It has additional information about what happened:
https://railroads.dot.gov/elibrary/safety-advisory-2023-01-evaluation-policies-and-procedures-related-use-and-maintenance-hot
blue streak 1Continue to ask where was the detctor before MP79 and what did it read? Also if there had been a detector at ~~ MP 59 what might it have shown ? It appears that ideal detector spacing is about 10 miles. It certainly is around here on CSX. More importantly all the data from systemwide detectors can easily be handled by computer programs that flag rising readings and can quickly flag them. However, have to wonder is NS has cut too many persons monitoring trends to adequately manage trend warnings?
More importantly all the data from systemwide detectors can easily be handled by computer programs that flag rising readings and can quickly flag them. However, have to wonder is NS has cut too many persons monitoring trends to adequately manage trend warnings?
I have a copy of the NS ETT for their Pittsburgh Division from 1/1/2008 - 15 years ago. On the Fort Wayne Line it shows Alliance as the junction point for trains from the Cleveland Line be at milepost PC 83.2, it shows Sebring at PC 79.6 to be a Hot Box/Dragging Equipment Detector, Salem at PC 69.0 is also a HBD/DED, Columbiana at PC 60.8 is shown to be a DED only, East Palestine at PC 49.8 is a HBD/DED. The timetable shows two more detectors before the line gets to the Conway yard complex.
This is 15 years ago and NS could have made multiple changes between then and today. How NS has Detector Sites configured is open to question - are the detectors notifying trains directly or are the results being filtered through a 'Mechanical Desk' and then reported to trains or is their some other form of communication being utilized?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Continue to ask where was the detctor before MP79 and what did it read? Also if there had been a detector at ~~ MP 59 what might it have shown ? It appears that ideal detector spacing is about 10 miles. It certainly is around here on CSX.
Let us look at the dynamics of the accident. This is just speculative non detailed observations.
1. The hoppper car probably did not have a shelf coupler.
2. The cars in front & back of the accident car were also hoppers probably no shelf couplers.
3. The distant video of the accident car appears that the bad axel was on the foward truck leading axel or #1 axel ?
4. If that is so then when the axel failed, the truck would have broken apart. Then the car would have dropped down and snagged something on the track. An almost immediate stop of the accident car might have occurred ? With no shelf couplers then train would have parted between accident car and car in front ? Immediate emergency brake being applied front and rear.. Then all the back part of the train piles onto the derailed hopper car that had stopped.
5. Now if the bad axel had been traveling #4 axel the front locos might have dragged bad hopper some what forward and train rear end might have stopped before hitting bad hopper.? Or, at least a slow speed collision ? That would depend on what the engineer might have done ? Did he bail the Emergency brake to streach what was left of his train ? JEFF?
CSX RobertIf the NTSB's preliminary report is correct, whoever has been spreading this information is wrong. The first two detectors were within nornal operating parameters and would not have warned the train crew of anything. The third detector warned them and they immediately began slowing the train but it derailed before they could get it stopped.
That's seems to be the point some have raised. It goes back to the railroad's experience with such readings.
I would suppose that if a given axle is showing the same slightly elevated temperature through a number of detectors, it probably isn't an operational issue, as such. Perhaps the car should be flagged for a closer look at it's next stop, but otherwise, it's no big deal. As has been noted, a slightly elevated (above ambient) temperature is to be expected.
What many folks have taken notice of is the trend of rising axle temperatures. In this case, it went from meh to hmmmm to oops over just three detectors.
I don't believe that simply lowering the trigger thresholds is the answer.
It's kind of like barometer readings. Aside from exceptional readings (as during hurricanes), it's not the actual real-time value that counts. It's the trend. Right now my weather station is showing the barometer dropping pretty quickly. Right ahead of a significant winter storm, or so they tell us.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Falcon48 I don't know if the moderators are going to allow this, but here is the body of a post from the Railway Preservation News website which, if accurate, is mighty interesting: ------------------------- The ECP brakes would not have done a thing to help the East Palestine situation. I talked to some people who have been following this closely and I think this is what happened: NS adopted a new way of dealing with defect detectors alerting for supposedly hot axle bearings. Rather than having crews stop every time they "caught" a detector to inspect their train, NS created a "Defect Detector Help Desk" in Atlanta. That desk can get real-time temperatures of the axles on a passing train from any detector on the system. When a train trips a DD, the crew calls the dispatcher and informs them. The dispatcher tells the help desk which detector alerted, and they look up how hot the indicated axle(s) are and the ambient air temperature in the area. The supervisor doing this then decides whether or not the train needs to stop and inspect their train or continue on. This is what happened twice to 32N that night with the two detectors before East Palestine.The first one showed the bad axle was 40 degrees above the ambient temperature. The second one showed it was 103 degrees above. Both times the help desk ordered the train to keep going. The detector at East Palestine indicated the bad axle was 253 degrees above ambient air temperature. The desk then told the crew to stop and inspect their train, but the train derailed moments later. NS rolled the dice that they could do this and not have a major wreck and rolled snake eyes. Yes, it was totally management's fault and totally preventable. The only good news is that nobody was directly killed in the derailment, and it happened in a more rural area, rather than in downtown Cleveland, which it passed through about an hour earlier, or while passing The Capitol Ltd. on the same route. Hopefully this accident will be the end of the "Defect Detector Help Desk", and the beginning of standardized federal rules for defect detectors, which surprisingly have not existed up to this point.
I don't know if the moderators are going to allow this, but here is the body of a post from the Railway Preservation News website which, if accurate, is mighty interesting:
-------------------------
The ECP brakes would not have done a thing to help the East Palestine situation. I talked to some people who have been following this closely and I think this is what happened: NS adopted a new way of dealing with defect detectors alerting for supposedly hot axle bearings. Rather than having crews stop every time they "caught" a detector to inspect their train, NS created a "Defect Detector Help Desk" in Atlanta. That desk can get real-time temperatures of the axles on a passing train from any detector on the system. When a train trips a DD, the crew calls the dispatcher and informs them. The dispatcher tells the help desk which detector alerted, and they look up how hot the indicated axle(s) are and the ambient air temperature in the area. The supervisor doing this then decides whether or not the train needs to stop and inspect their train or continue on. This is what happened twice to 32N that night with the two detectors before East Palestine.The first one showed the bad axle was 40 degrees above the ambient temperature. The second one showed it was 103 degrees above. Both times the help desk ordered the train to keep going. The detector at East Palestine indicated the bad axle was 253 degrees above ambient air temperature. The desk then told the crew to stop and inspect their train, but the train derailed moments later. NS rolled the dice that they could do this and not have a major wreck and rolled snake eyes. Yes, it was totally management's fault and totally preventable. The only good news is that nobody was directly killed in the derailment, and it happened in a more rural area, rather than in downtown Cleveland, which it passed through about an hour earlier, or while passing The Capitol Ltd. on the same route. Hopefully this accident will be the end of the "Defect Detector Help Desk", and the beginning of standardized federal rules for defect detectors, which surprisingly have not existed up to this point.
If the NTSB's preliminary report is correct, whoever has been spreading this information is wrong. The first two detectors were within nornal operating parameters and would not have warned the train crew of anything. The third detector warned them and they immediately began slowing the train but it derailed before they could get it stopped.
n012944 Backshop n012944 What a joke. US Ecology is a "dirty dirt" plant that has been located in that location for a long time. Its business is treating these types of things. Sad that the Congress person does not know the industries that operate in their district. Yeah, and people have been complaining about it for its entire existence. Of course they have. NIMBYism at its finest. Backshop It's just a little too close to Detroit According to whom? Backshop Maps are hard to decipher, but the Detroit area Congressional districts were all redrawn with the last election and I'm not sure if Dingell had it in her old district. I know that she used to live in Dearborn and moved to Ann Arbor to be in her new district. Again, what a joke. She is still ignorant to the kind of business done in her district. To claim the shocked, "no one told me", makes her look stupid. News flash lady, that kind of stuff is always being brought to your district.
Backshop n012944 What a joke. US Ecology is a "dirty dirt" plant that has been located in that location for a long time. Its business is treating these types of things. Sad that the Congress person does not know the industries that operate in their district. Yeah, and people have been complaining about it for its entire existence.
n012944 What a joke. US Ecology is a "dirty dirt" plant that has been located in that location for a long time. Its business is treating these types of things. Sad that the Congress person does not know the industries that operate in their district.
What a joke. US Ecology is a "dirty dirt" plant that has been located in that location for a long time. Its business is treating these types of things. Sad that the Congress person does not know the industries that operate in their district.
Yeah, and people have been complaining about it for its entire existence.
Of course they have. NIMBYism at its finest.
Backshop It's just a little too close to Detroit
It's just a little too close to Detroit
According to whom?
Backshop Maps are hard to decipher, but the Detroit area Congressional districts were all redrawn with the last election and I'm not sure if Dingell had it in her old district. I know that she used to live in Dearborn and moved to Ann Arbor to be in her new district.
Maps are hard to decipher, but the Detroit area Congressional districts were all redrawn with the last election and I'm not sure if Dingell had it in her old district. I know that she used to live in Dearborn and moved to Ann Arbor to be in her new district.
Again, what a joke. She is still ignorant to the kind of business done in her district. To claim the shocked, "no one told me", makes her look stupid. News flash lady, that kind of stuff is always being brought to your district.
Falcon48The first one showed the bad axle was 40 degrees above the ambient temperature. The second one showed it was 103 degrees above.
I would question two things - was either reading, by itself, enough to cause concern (it's been suggested here that they weren't). And, second, does the help desk look at trends, or just consider the standalone readings?
It's been suggested that the trend was the key to recognizing the issue. Depending on the size of the help desk, there might have been two different people who evaluated the individual readings.
With hundreds of defect detectors system-wide, any number of which may potentially generate an alarm at any time, that may have caused a lapse in continuity that was, in the end, the downfall.
tree68 Backshop I think all the tanks were built on the other side of the metro area, in Warren. You're probably right - the point is that there has been heavy industry there for years. Even the site of the tiny "Village Industries" Ford carburetor plant is considered a brownfield.
Backshop I think all the tanks were built on the other side of the metro area, in Warren.
I think all the tanks were built on the other side of the metro area, in Warren.
You're probably right - the point is that there has been heavy industry there for years.
Even the site of the tiny "Village Industries" Ford carburetor plant is considered a brownfield.
PS Falcon48--very interesting post. I could see them ignoring the first reading but with the climb to the second, much higher temp, they should've stopped the train.
An "expensive model collector"
tree68 The Willow Run area has been home to an airport (still is), auto factories, and a lot of tanks were built there, too.
The Willow Run area has been home to an airport (still is), auto factories, and a lot of tanks were built there, too.
Not to mention a metric shedload of B-24's.
The waste going to Texas will likely be 'indirectly pyrolyzed' -- heated to over 1000F in controlled atmosphere rather than 'burned'.
Here is another option US Ecology provides... note that I have seen or read nothing about either the option or material going to the state sites mentioned:
https://www.usecology.com/system/files/2020-07/PFAS%20White%20Paper.pdf
BaltACDthis is not the first HAZMAT fouled ground that has gone to whatever facility it is going to - other 'less political' HAZMAT fould ground has been going to the site for years, if not decades.
True, but we were never allowed to discuss those other events here, because they didn't involve railroads. Gotta strike while the iron is hot!!
A friend of mine was involved with the shipping of the dirty dirt dredged out of the Hudson River near Albany (PCBs).
We're not talking carloads. We're talking trainloads, and lots of them. It all went somewhere, although I never asked where...
BaltACDAll thoses getting their nits in a twist about where the East Palestine HAZMAT fouled ground it going need to remember - this is not the first HAZMAT fouled ground that has gone to whatever facility it is going to - other 'less political' HAZMAT fould ground has been going to the site for years, if not decades. There are a number of such dumps around the country
I dunno Balt, your argument sounds a little too much like "since they've been doing it for years, I should have no problem with them making the problem even worse"...And I just don't buy the "two wrongs are no worse than one wrong" mentality.
I've traced the tributaries of our own water supply and am comforted that none flow through Belleville. But it still seems pretty misguided to even build such a dump that near so precious a resource as the great lakes...
lol...stupid nimbys, if they didn't want rainbows coming out of their showerheads they shouldn't have built their town so near the railroad!! (is that where this is headed?)
How do you replace seals on AP-bearing wheelsets on an accelerated basis without removing and replacing most of the bearing components? That defeats much of the supposed purpose of 500K mile bearings that outlast the life of the wheels...
And didn't the EPA take over the cleanup before waste would reach any 'politically-sensitive' locations? ...
OvermodAnd didn't the EPA take over the cleanup before waste would reach any 'politically-sensitive' locations?
Odds are the destination of the dirty dirt would be the same.
And not many people are going to want it in their area anyhow, at least not if they know about it.
jeffhergert n012944 Convicted One Backshop Yeah, there's a HUGE landfill on the north side of I-94 between Detroit and Ann Arbor, in Belleville You certainly hit that one right in the nose!! https://www.wtvr.com/news/national-news/texas-and-michigan-officials-did-not-know-water-soil-from-east-palestine-ohio-train-wreck-would-be-transported-to-jurisidictions?fbclid=IwAR202eIaZZPzLYOyMd3kTk3Ouf4DK07tqg5EOVk2lwsSJv9MBvuJmZB0C1g Both the Michigan governor as well as a congress person for the Bellville district state that no one briefed them that spoils from the wreck were headed their way. Of course, I can't say as I really blame NS for that lack of transparency. Typically in such matters the more people you get involved, only adds to the cost of getting the job done. What a joke. US Ecology is a "dirty dirt" plant that has been located in that location for a long time. Its business is treating these types of things. Sad that the Congress person does not know the industries that operate in their district. They must not have submitted enough "campaign contributitions" to get noticed. OTOH, maybe they don't want to be noticed, Jeff
n012944 Convicted One Backshop Yeah, there's a HUGE landfill on the north side of I-94 between Detroit and Ann Arbor, in Belleville You certainly hit that one right in the nose!! https://www.wtvr.com/news/national-news/texas-and-michigan-officials-did-not-know-water-soil-from-east-palestine-ohio-train-wreck-would-be-transported-to-jurisidictions?fbclid=IwAR202eIaZZPzLYOyMd3kTk3Ouf4DK07tqg5EOVk2lwsSJv9MBvuJmZB0C1g Both the Michigan governor as well as a congress person for the Bellville district state that no one briefed them that spoils from the wreck were headed their way. Of course, I can't say as I really blame NS for that lack of transparency. Typically in such matters the more people you get involved, only adds to the cost of getting the job done. What a joke. US Ecology is a "dirty dirt" plant that has been located in that location for a long time. Its business is treating these types of things. Sad that the Congress person does not know the industries that operate in their district.
Convicted One Backshop Yeah, there's a HUGE landfill on the north side of I-94 between Detroit and Ann Arbor, in Belleville You certainly hit that one right in the nose!! https://www.wtvr.com/news/national-news/texas-and-michigan-officials-did-not-know-water-soil-from-east-palestine-ohio-train-wreck-would-be-transported-to-jurisidictions?fbclid=IwAR202eIaZZPzLYOyMd3kTk3Ouf4DK07tqg5EOVk2lwsSJv9MBvuJmZB0C1g Both the Michigan governor as well as a congress person for the Bellville district state that no one briefed them that spoils from the wreck were headed their way. Of course, I can't say as I really blame NS for that lack of transparency. Typically in such matters the more people you get involved, only adds to the cost of getting the job done.
Backshop Yeah, there's a HUGE landfill on the north side of I-94 between Detroit and Ann Arbor, in Belleville
You certainly hit that one right in the nose!!
https://www.wtvr.com/news/national-news/texas-and-michigan-officials-did-not-know-water-soil-from-east-palestine-ohio-train-wreck-would-be-transported-to-jurisidictions?fbclid=IwAR202eIaZZPzLYOyMd3kTk3Ouf4DK07tqg5EOVk2lwsSJv9MBvuJmZB0C1g
Both the Michigan governor as well as a congress person for the Bellville district state that no one briefed them that spoils from the wreck were headed their way. Of course, I can't say as I really blame NS for that lack of transparency. Typically in such matters the more people you get involved, only adds to the cost of getting the job done.
They must not have submitted enough "campaign contributitions" to get noticed.
OTOH, maybe they don't want to be noticed,
Jeff
I'd opine, but it would involve getting into Michigan politics.
John
All thoses getting their nits in a twist about where the East Palestine HAZMAT fouled ground it going need to remember - this is not the first HAZMAT fouled ground that has gone to whatever facility it is going to - other 'less political' HAZMAT fould ground has been going to the site for years, if not decades.
There are a number of such dumps around the country.
tree68 Backshop Yeah, there's a HUGE landfill on the north side of I-94 between Detroit and Ann Arbor, in Belleville. Looks to be right next to Willow Run Airport.
Backshop Yeah, there's a HUGE landfill on the north side of I-94 between Detroit and Ann Arbor, in Belleville.
Looks to be right next to Willow Run Airport.
BackshopYeah, there's a HUGE landfill on the north side of I-94 between Detroit and Ann Arbor, in Belleville.
BackshopYeah, there's a HUGE landfill on the north side of I-94 between Detroit and Ann Arbor, in Belleville
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