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Posted by jeffhergert on Tuesday, December 13, 2022 5:22 PM

Overnight, I had manifest train.  In it were three reefers of potatoes, in protective service with instructions to maintain at 42 degrees F.  Clearly not frozen spuds.

There were also 28 cars of wine.  It may have been the largest amount of a single commodity in the train.  Sometimes when stopped I look through the train list and break down the loads.  I only counted the wine this time because it seemed like there was a lot of it.  Another contender for largest single commodity on the train would've been soda ash.  I see a lot of that in manifests.

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Posted by Steven Otte on Tuesday, December 13, 2022 6:12 PM

To quote the post topic... Come on, guys. You should know better than to get into politics. Stay on topic and out of politics.

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Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, December 13, 2022 6:55 PM

Steven Otte
To quote the post topic... Come on, guys. You should know better than to get into politics. Stay on topic and out of politics.

Come on Steven - Railroads and politics have been inextricably linked since the idea of the creation of the B&O in 1827.  You can't get involved in one without bringing out elements of the other.

Politics and Railroads intersecting in today's world

https://www.kansascity.com/news/bus...Zf32XnbW3RivQjixuMrlToagRiW8xjjAhma1QPGQbWQgw

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Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 8:04 AM

Politics in this thread?  Where?

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Posted by Convicted One on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 8:09 AM

Euclid
Politics in this thread?  Where?

 

Same thought occurred to me. I just figured some abusive posts must already have been deleted?

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Posted by Flintlock76 on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 8:28 AM

Convicted One

 

 
Euclid
Politics in this thread?  Where?

 

 

Same thought occurred to me. I just figured some abusive posts must already have been deleted?

 

No, the posts weren't abusive but they WERE political.  I suspect Big Steve pulled the plug before things got out of hand.  Can't blame him really. 

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Posted by Convicted One on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 8:49 AM

Flintlock76
No, the posts weren't abusive but they WERE political. 

 

I was using "abusive" in a metaphoric sense...as in "abusing the local policy"  Wink

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Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 11:15 AM

In what way were the now missing posts political?

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Posted by Paul of Covington on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 12:00 PM

Euclid

In what way were the now missing posts political?

 

   They discussed political subjects that were not railroad related.  One of those deleted was mine.

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Posted by Convicted One on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 1:01 PM

So, does the lack of a threat of  competition, that was brought about by allowing so much merger/rationalization in the rail industry, factor into the surviving entities indifference towards marginal business,  leaving them preoccupied with only the most profitable business?

Or put another way, if there were still more competing entities in the mix, would it be easier to remind them all they have serve-the-public-good obligations, and have hope they would respond favorably?   The lack of  (similar mode) alternatives seems to be working in their favor, is why I ask.

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Posted by tree68 on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 1:18 PM

Convicted One
So, does the lack of a threat of  competition, that was brought about by allowing so much merger/rationalization in the rail industry, factor into the surviving entities indifference towards marginal business,  leaving them preoccupied with only the most profitable business?

While that may be a factor, I would opine that the emphasis on keeping only the most profitable business is placed by folks outside the railroad world - ie, Wall Street.  

Up to a certain level, most railroad employees are only concerned with garnering a decent paycheck (and decent work conditions, as we are seeing).  I'm sure that there are plenty of marketing people around who would love to be drumming up business for the railroad.  Unfortunately, most of them have been laid off...

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 1:41 PM

tree68
 
Convicted One
So, does the lack of a threat of  competition, that was brought about by allowing so much merger/rationalization in the rail industry, factor into the surviving entities indifference towards marginal business,  leaving them preoccupied with only the most profitable business? 

While that may be a factor, I would opine that the emphasis on keeping only the most profitable business is placed by folks outside the railroad world - ie, Wall Street.  

Up to a certain level, most railroad employees are only concerned with garnering a decent paycheck (and decent work conditions, as we are seeing).  I'm sure that there are plenty of marketing people around who would love to be drumming up business for the railroad.  Unfortunately, most of them have been laid off...

I would love to see those activist Wall Street analysts have to work the schedule of railroad operating employees with the way attendance policies are currently being enforced.

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Posted by Convicted One on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 1:54 PM

tree68
I would opine that the emphasis on keeping only the most profitable business is placed by folks outside the railroad world - ie, Wall Street.  

Well, what I kinda had in mind,  enforcing the "public good" aspect might gain more traction if there was more railroads in the  mix.

Tell Wall street "there ain't a gonna be no railroads unless you serve the public good" And then rely upon good ol fashioned competition to test who might comply best .


If there is only one railroad that's gonna haul those potatoes out of Washington, the response might not be as enthusiastic as it could be if  instead  3  or 4 were competing for the privilige.

That "innovation" thing   

I suspect that the "market power" the railroads have assembled through consolidation,  gives them undue benefit because of the lack of viable alternatives.

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 2:02 PM

Convicted One
 
tree68
I would opine that the emphasis on keeping only the most profitable business is placed by folks outside the railroad world - ie, Wall Street.   

Well, what I kinda had in mind,  enforcing the "public good" aspect might gain more traction if there was more railroads in the  mix.

Tell Wall street "there ain't a gonna be no railroads unless you serve the public good" And then rely upon good ol fashioned competition to test who might comply best .

If there is only one railroad that's gonna haul those potatoes out of Washington, the response might not be as enthusiastic as it could be if  instead  3  or 4 were competing for the privilige.

That "innovation" thing   

I suspect that the "market power" the railroads have assembled through consolidation,  gives them undue benefit because of the lack of viable alternatives.

Even back when I was working - CSX was alway crowing about how they had 'pricing power' within their network and customer base.  Come the 19th of the month I will have been retired 6 years.

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Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 2:25 PM
Well, adding more competition might improve the public good, but it would require Government to add that competition with something like reciprocal switching.  But the deficiency of public good in this case can be more directly remedied by the Government first defining the Common Carrier Obligation, and then enforcing it.
 
Otherwise the railroads will just quit hauling freight that they feel is not lucrative enough, and leave the public with no transportation option for those goods.  It seems that the industry is on that downward trajectory now with the doctrine called PSR.  Enforcing the Common Carrier Obligation would immediately reverse that trend.  It would go right to the heart of the problem instead of the less direct means of adding more competition by adding more routes.  I sense this is becoming the recognized solution and is gaining traction.  It would be a form of reregulation brought on by railroad management. 
 
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Posted by Convicted One on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 2:27 PM

BaltACD
- CSX was alway crowing about how they had 'pricing power' within their network and customer base.

Could it be that near monopoly status that makes the RR's such darlings to the actvist investors?

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Posted by Convicted One on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 2:34 PM

Euclid
Well, adding more competition might improve the public good, but it would require Government to add that competition with something like reciprocal switching.

I was just thinking about all the moaning I've heard the past 6 decades lamenting "fallen flags", and how the response is usually something along the lines of:   "Drop-dead foamer, it's called free enterprise"...and how it might be those very buzzards  now coming home to roost.  Devil

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Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 4:52 PM

Convicted One

 

 
Euclid
Well, adding more competition might improve the public good, but it would require Government to add that competition with something like reciprocal switching.

 

I was just thinking about all the moaning I've heard the past 6 decades lamenting "fallen flags", and how the response is usually something along the lines of:   "Drop-dead foamer, it's called free enterprise"...and how it might be those very buzzards  now coming home to roost.  Devil

Well before they could mandate reciprocal switching somebody would have to explain what it is.  But I don't think adding competition is the answer.  If the railroads can do the job that is needed at a price shippers can accept, why expand the plant just to make competition?  That would be inefficient.  
 
To get the  job done, there is one word that everyone understands, and that is, "Regulation."  That would just mandate that railroads haul everything offered, and do so in a timely manner, once the Government defines, "Common Carrier Obligation." 
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Posted by Convicted One on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 5:47 PM

Or "Quality of Life"?   LOL.

 

That is  one of the things the chronic critics of regulation seem to sweep under the carpet. Historically it has been implemented not on a whim, but to address real word problems. 

 

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Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 8:43 PM

Convicted One

Or "Quality of Life"?   LOL.

 

That is  one of the things the chronic critics of regulation seem to sweep under the carpet. Historically it has been implemented not on a whim, but to address real word problems. 

Are you connecting my above reference to the need to define "reciprocal switching" before implementing it to a need to define "quality of life" before impementing it?

I also linked an article that says "Common Carrier Obligation" needs a clear definition before it can be enforced.  It does have a definition, but it is too subjective to enforce legally.  

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Posted by Convicted One on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 9:22 PM

Euclid
Are you connecting my above reference to the need to define "reciprocal switching" before implementing it to a need to define "quality of life" before impementing it?

For some reason, at the time I was making the post, the "Add Quote to your post" function was dead, and the bar-button one normally uses to add a quote was shrunk to one of those "missing file" type icons, so I really could not reply to your post the way I might have preferred.

 

And, all I was doing was poking fun at the relative ambiguity of the expression "Quality of Life" as well as your stated need to define  "Common Carrier Obligation".....seems that BOTH could use better definition.

The subsequent comment about regulation arising from need,.. was a separate notion.

But, don't you think that added competition and the threat of reciprocal switching might be a handy lever to bring the Wall streeters more receptive to meeting Common Carrier Obligations?

They might concede just to protect their investment.....I'm certain that RR management could persuade them that reciprocal switching is a wolf at the door worth avoiding. Mischief

 

 

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Posted by Euclid on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 9:32 PM

Convicted One

 

 
Euclid
Are you connecting my above reference to the need to define "reciprocal switching" before implementing it to a need to define "quality of life" before impementing it?

 

For some reason, at the time I was making the post, the "Add Quote to your post" function was dead, and the bar-button one normally uses to add a quote was shrunk to one of those "missing file" type icons, so I really could not reply to your post the way I might have preferred.

 

And, all I was doing was poking fun at the relative ambiguity of the expression "Quality of Life" as well as your stated need to define  "Common Carrier Obligation".....seems that BOTH could use better definition.

The subsequent comment about regulation arising from need,.. was a separate notion.

But, don't you think that added competition and the threat of reciprocal switching might be a handy lever to bring the Wall streeters more receptive to meeting Common Carrier Obligations?

They might concede just to protect their investment.....I'm certain that RR management could persuade them that reciprocal switching is a wolf at the door worth avoiding. Mischief

 

 

 

I understand your points in blue.  That is what I thought you meant to say.  

I also understant your point about threatening to add competition as a stick to prod management to serve the entire market rather than just the most lucrative part.  I am not quite sure how that would work.  If you actually added competion, railroas may have a harder time making a buck, and thus serve more of the market.  But if that is business they don't want because it is not lucrative enough, maybe they simply would not compete for it.  

So that is why I suggest just forcing them to serve the entire market by regulation, and the most direct way to do that would be the Common Carrier Obligation since it is already a tool created for the purpose.  As the article I linked a few posts up says, all they need is an enforceable definition of Common Carrier Obligation. 

Just the threat of that might coerce railroas to improve and increase their service because they know that opening the door to new regulation would be the camel's nose under the tent.   

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Posted by Convicted One on Wednesday, December 14, 2022 9:55 PM

Well, I hope they devise something that works,...I'm a man that enjoys potatoes. Pirate

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Posted by rdamon on Thursday, December 15, 2022 5:17 AM

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/union-pacific-railroad-shipping-limits-generate-complaints-95328730

Union Pacific railroad shipping limits generate complaints

"The head of the U.S. Surface Transportation Board, Martin Oberman, said Wednesday he's concerned about Union Pacific's increasing use of the embargoes because they disrupt operations of the businesses that rely on the railroad, and they haven't seemed to help its performance significantly.

(snip)

Oberman said there seems to be a direct correlation between the sharp drop in Union Pacific employees since 2018, as it overhauled its operations, and the increased use of embargoes. The number of train crews the railroad employed went from roughly 18,000 in 2018 to about 13,000 today and that includes all the hiring the railroad has done since the economy started to rebound from the pandemic."

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Posted by Ulrich on Thursday, December 15, 2022 7:50 AM

The days of hiring and firing people appear to be coming to an end. Now its more like hire them if you can and hang on to them as best as you can through thick and thin.. maybe that's better anyway.. 

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, December 15, 2022 8:23 AM

Ulrich
Now its more like hire them if you can and hang on to them as best as you can through thick and thin.

More likely keep firing them and expecting they'll come back when they get tired of the alternatives.

A recent class of BNSF conductor training in Memphis had 41 applicants, of which about 6 successfully completed the training, and none actually signed on once they realized what 'the life' entailed.

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Posted by Euclid on Thursday, December 15, 2022 7:53 PM

rdamon

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/union-pacific-railroad-shipping-limits-generate-complaints-95328730

Union Pacific railroad shipping limits generate complaints

"The head of the U.S. Surface Transportation Board, Martin Oberman, said Wednesday he's concerned about Union Pacific's increasing use of the embargoes because they disrupt operations of the businesses that rely on the railroad, and they haven't seemed to help its performance significantly.

(snip)

Oberman said there seems to be a direct correlation between the sharp drop in Union Pacific employees since 2018, as it overhauled its operations, and the increased use of embargoes. The number of train crews the railroad employed went from roughly 18,000 in 2018 to about 13,000 today and that includes all the hiring the railroad has done since the economy started to rebound from the pandemic."

I think that article explains the situation well.  Even if the Labor Unions (during this last dispute) did not make inroads to solve the problem of poor working conditions; shippers are likely to succeed in that objective because poor working conditions are harming shippers by causing a lack of labor to move the trains. Management is running down the railroad business by overstressing the labor force, so they must delay shipping to keep up with demand. 
 
It also seems like this problem is growing worse.  This will not be allowed to continue.
 
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Posted by jeffhergert on Thursday, December 15, 2022 8:21 PM

Ulrich

The days of hiring and firing people appear to be coming to an end. Now its more like hire them if you can and hang on to them as best as you can through thick and thin.. maybe that's better anyway.. 

 

My how time flies.  April 1st already.  But my calendar still says December.

Just recently I was reading the recrew report.  One train had to have another crew called at the originating terminal because one of the crew members had been pulled out of service before they departed.  The reason?  Attendance.

Jeff 

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Posted by Convicted One on Friday, December 16, 2022 9:25 AM

Euclid
shippers are likely to succeed in that objective because poor working conditions are harming shippers by causing a lack of labor to move the trains.

Euclid
This will not be allowed to continue.

MY GOSH, You are quite the optimist!  Angel

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Posted by ns145 on Friday, December 16, 2022 9:50 AM

jeffhergert

 

 
Ulrich

The days of hiring and firing people appear to be coming to an end. Now its more like hire them if you can and hang on to them as best as you can through thick and thin.. maybe that's better anyway.. 

 

 

 

My how time flies.  April 1st already.  But my calendar still says December.

Just recently I was reading the recrew report.  One train had to have another crew called at the originating terminal because one of the crew members had been pulled out of service before they departed.  The reason?  Attendance.

Jeff 

 

I'm a lifelong railfan, but I have to admit that the rail industry is the absolute pits.  Bad management, little forward thinking, crappy service even in the best of times, generally inferior to all other forms of transportation, and management ranks filled with absolutely lousy human beings.  Honestly there's nothing to be a fan of, except for the glory days.  Its turned into a complete dumpster fire s*** show.

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