A bike path near my house is on top of an old Rock Island rail bed. The parallel former Milwaukee Road line 100 feet away is graded much better. For example, in a half mile stretch the Rock Island ROW rises and then drops 12 feet. The Milwaukee Road ROW- now the BNSF line through town- is flat as a pancake. I've seen other ROW from both in the area. In general, was the Milwaukee Road usually built to higher standards than the Rock Island in the same area?
I find this a little bit troubling, as I'd always heard that the Rock Island line was a mighty good road.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy SidingA bike path near my house is on top of an old Rock Island rail bed. The parallel former Milwaukee Road line 100 feet away is graded much better. For example, in a half mile stretch the Rock Island ROW rises and then drops 12 feet. The Milwaukee Road ROW- now the BNSF line through town- is flat as a pancake. I've seen other ROW from both in the area. In general, was the Milwaukee Road usually built to higher standards than the Rock Island in the same area?
Did you look at the line history of each to make sure they were constructed by each instead of merged in railroads? Just curious.
Murphy SidingIn general, was the Milwaukee Road ...
Maybe if you tell people what lines you're talking about someone will know when they were built. Rock Island redid its lines at several places.
timz Murphy Siding In general, was the Milwaukee Road ... No one knows any general rule. Maybe if you tell people what lines you're talking about someone will know when they were built. Rock Island redid its lines at several places.
Murphy Siding In general, was the Milwaukee Road ...
No one knows any general rule.
Most rail companies in the 19th century were created as undercapitalized entities and built as much mileage as they could and moved as little earth as possible to build that mileage. As more capital became available, sometimes it was reinvested into the physical plant to minimize changes in line elevation and increase the radius of curves.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The original location of tracks was dictated by more than capital funds. The need of water for locomotives, the lack of tools to excavate deep rock cuts, the flood plains of certain rivers or streams, plus the politics of states or towns and large land holdings.
diningcar... the lack of tools to excavate deep rock cuts, ...
Rock cuts on the Mohawk and Malone (NYC Adirondack Division, now Adirondack Railroad) are usually just wide enough. Accounts of early operations indicate that occasionally fittings would be knocked off steam locomotives, and even today we worry occasionally about whether cars like the dome will clear.
A common practice was (and still is) to use the dirt from a cut to fill in a dip. As noted, sometimes the economics would not allow for "outside" fill to be brought in.
One extremely large fill on the MA&N probably still has a trestle under it. The chief reason for building the trestle was to reach a spot on the other side from which fill could be obtained.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
diningcarThe original location of tracks was dictated by more than capital funds. The need of water for locomotives, the lack of tools to excavate deep rock cuts, the flood plains of certain rivers or streams, plus the politics of states or towns and large land holdings.
Capital available dictated each and every aspect you mentioned. Everything needs the lubrication provided by money (or the lack thereof). If there was enough money to 'do the job right', it was; if there wasn't the job got done in the lease expensive way possible. It has always taken money to lubricate politicians - some have gotten very rich standing in the way of progress until they were sufficiently lubricated.
The Sioux Falls line of the RI was built by the Burlington, Cedar Rapids & Northern Ry. That railroad became part of the RI in 1903, although they had control of it about 10 or 15 years earlier.
Jeff
I imagine BNSF has improved its former MILW lines. I'm assuming the BNSF line you're mentioning is probably the Mitchell Sub. All CRI&P routes into South Dakota were branches hence the elevation change you're seeing. Branches are built much more cheaply for the most part than mainlines.
SD60MAC9500 I imagine BNSF has improved its former MILW lines. I'm assuming the BNSF line you're mentioning is probably the Mitchell Sub. All CRI&P routes into South Dakota were branches hence the elevation change you're seeing. Branches are built much more cheaply for the most part than mainlines.
BNSF has certainly improved the track in terms of rail, ties, ballast, and bridges, especially after buying the Core Lines outright from the state about 15 years ago. But I don't think they altered the profile or alignment in any significant way.
Dan
tree68 One extremely large fill on the MA&N probably still has a trestle under it. The chief reason for building the trestle was to reach a spot on the other side from which fill could be obtained.
A perhaps even more important reason was that it was easier to create the fill by dumping carloads of dirt from the trestle, than doing it lift by lift with material carted in. One strong incentive to cover a trestle with fill was to elminate the possiblity of the trestle burning down.
FWIW, the Central Pacific had a number of trestles that were filled in after the transcontinental line was finished.
Erik_Mag tree68 One extremely large fill on the MA&N probably still has a trestle under it. The chief reason for building the trestle was to reach a spot on the other side from which fill could be obtained. A perhaps even more important reason was that it was easier to create the fill by dumping carloads of dirt from the trestle, than doing it lift by lift with material carted in. One strong incentive to cover a trestle with fill was to elminate the possiblity of the trestle burning down. FWIW, the Central Pacific had a number of trestles that were filled in after the transcontinental line was finished.
Reportedly they took the top off a hill to get the material needed...
One story regarding the trestle was that the state bridge inspector noted that it didn't look all that healthy, to which the reply was that it was going to get covered anyhow.
Okay, I'll bite. Why is it that anytime I propose using old railroad ties for landscaping forms, I'm reminded that without proper drainage, they'll rot. Yet here we have load bearing wooden trestles being buried intentionally? What am I missing?
Convicted One Okay, I'll bite. Why is it that anytime I propose using old railroad ties for landscaping forms, I'm reminded that without proper drainage, they'll rot. Yet here we have load bearing wooden trestles being buried intentionally? What am I missing?
The fill trestle has no purpose once it has been filled, so it is okay if it rots. If the fill is in a previously unfilled area, the trestle is contructed with low quality because it is only needed for the filling work.
However, the rotting will cause fill subsidence over time, which will require subsequent work in the future to raise the track by adding a little more fill.
Euclidthe rotting will cause fill subsidence over time,
That was my first thought. I guess my surprise is with the expectation that subsequent remedial action will be "little". I mean if you are talking about a 25' fill, you are gonna have trestle members rotting 25' beneath the surface,
And, I'd think that the framing members would really interfere with compaction. Isn't "compaction" the alpha and omega of site prep?
Convicted One Euclid the rotting will cause fill subsidence over time, That was my first thought. I guess my surprise is with the expectation that subsequent remedial action will be "little". I mean if you are talking about a 25' fill, you are gonna have trestle members rotting 25' beneath the surface, And, I'd think that the framing members would really interfere with compaction. Isn't "compaction" the alpha and omega of site prep?
Euclid the rotting will cause fill subsidence over time,
I would imagine that operating trains continually over the trestle that has been made into a fill would aid in the compaction process as the trestle structure will be subject to vibratory forces with every train the moves across it.
My understanding is that oxygen is required in the decay/rotting process. The deeper timbers get buried in the fill, the less oxygen is available to sustain the process.
BaltACD Convicted One Euclid the rotting will cause fill subsidence over time, That was my first thought. I guess my surprise is with the expectation that subsequent remedial action will be "little". I mean if you are talking about a 25' fill, you are gonna have trestle members rotting 25' beneath the surface, And, I'd think that the framing members would really interfere with compaction. Isn't "compaction" the alpha and omega of site prep? I would imagine that operating trains continually over the trestle that has been made into a fill would aid in the compaction process as the trestle structure will be subject to vibratory forces with every train the moves across it. My understanding is that oxygen is required in the decay/rotting process. The deeper timbers get buried in the fill, the less oxygen is available to sustain the process.
I have to comment though since one of the railroads mentioned has a pretty good reputation in my view. Milwaukee road drained a swamp in Menominee valley in Milwaukee and built a series of drainage / shipping canals as well as a railroad shop complex on it. They also did pretty well traversing more than one swamp West of Milwaukee on the way to the Twin Cities and in Brookfield with the branch to Waukesha. I would venture to guess they were fairly good about building on swamp land.
BaltACDI would imagine that operating trains continually over the trestle that has been made into a fill would aid in the compaction process as the trestle structure will be subject to vibratory forces with every train the moves across it.
Perhaps those are the same vibratory forces and collateral subsidence that induce "bouncing" track structure?
Perhaps that helps explain why I see the MOW guys so frequently with their little thermite doo-hickey in the vicinity of the yellow arrow? (CWR)
My first thought was that the wood underground would rot away slower than wood out in the open, and as that slowly happened, the fill would work it's way into the voids.
This is a reply to several posts on this thread.
The line is in Sioux Falls SD next to Southeastern Avenue, north of 41st street. The Milwaukee line is probably graded the same as it was when built. The Rock Island line went out in the 70s. It makes sense that a Milwaukee main line was built to higher standards than a Rock Island branch line. It seems like RI got into the state after the better routes were taken.
After my post, I looked up some info. The BCR&N reached Sioux Falls October 25, 1886. It was under control of the RI at that time.
Speculation at the time was that RI, through BCR&N, was going to build to Bismarck ND and a connection to the NP. This was through the line that ended at Watertown SD. The Sioux Falls branch came off this line at Ellsworth MN. IIRC, a bridge went out in the early 1970s and the branch, now originating out of Estherville IA was cut back to Rock Rapids IA.
The line from Estherville to Superior IA is still operated by UP. The line west of Superior is gone. See this discussion from days of yore. https://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/229115.aspx
Murphy Siding, and as that slowly happened, the fill would work it's way into the voids.
If I was a deep pocket, I don't know how cozy I would be making the assumption that the settling and filling would happen uniformly?
The "scoop" Bucky is talking about is the ubitquious "Fresno Scraper" that started in 1883 and were still in use past WW1 until Holt Tractor/CAT really got into the picture. They could be anything from half a pony-keg up to half a 55 gallon drum in size. They contributed much to later bulldozer and motor grader designs plus the horses' hooves added excellent compactive effort.
Railroad standards have evolved over the years as railroads and regular civil engineers began to better understand soil properties and slope stability issues. 1:1 slopes gave way to 2:1 and now 3:1 in places. It all depends on how soils hold together and the mix of fines to everything up to cobbles in the made fill. Gap graded materials tend to fail depending on what you've got.
Jeff: intimately familiar with the BCR&N west of Superior. Kinda sad what happened there. (Uncle Pete demanded a siding on the resulting shortline and would not allow the shortline to interchange at Superior not helping was the fact was UP/CNW did not own the underlying R/W and the people that did were not railroaders - ugly/greedy arrangement that ulimately killed the line.)
I will come back and verify the construction dates and original railroads. Not hard to do if you know what ICC GO-20 is and where to find those submittals. The ROCK lines were all part of the fabled CRIP "bow and arrow country" that were all low density lines that were not high speed and not well taken care of.
UPDATE:
BNSF/MILW = McGregor & Sioux City Ry. (Graded 1878) taken over by Sioux City and Dakota Railway in 1879 and completed.
CRIP (abandoned line) Cedar Rapids, Iowa Falls and Northwestern RR (BCRN of Iowa) 1886......Abandoned 12-29-70 FD-26470...removed by 1973
The BNSF Southern Transcon is currently the fastest and most reliable route between Pacific water and Chicago; and it became this way by many changes from original construction; like Abo Canyon recently. Without a doubt the greatest contributor was the Williams - Crookton line change in the Arizona mountains in 1959 -60.
The original 1882 construction was 49 miles of single track, with a second track created (in steps) in the 1920's. Some of the segments had 2.6% grades and curves of up to 10 degrees. It was a 20 MPH operation in many locations.
The relocated line was 44 miles in length, with maximum 1% grades and one degree curves. To accomplish these parameters there were rock cuts up to 110 feet deep, with the longest being 13,000 feet. The highest fill was 122 feet and the longest was 6000 feet.
The design also avoided slack action. From Williams Junction the line descended 32 miles on 1% grade where it intersected a 0.85 % ascending grade. This was designed with a 10,000 foot vertical curve making the change .085 per 100 feet.
It was superelevated with spirals on each curve end which would permit 70 mph freight trains and 90 mph passenger trains.
The most amazing thing is that this was all accomplished in sixteen months. The contractor - Morrison-Knudsen - worked two nine-hour shifts six days a week. The first train - Santa Fe's The Chief went over the line on December 19, 1960.
I had the honor and pleasure of being one of Santa Fe's engineering technicians who set all the stakes and control points for the contractor.
Convicted One Murphy Siding , and as that slowly happened, the fill would work it's way into the voids. If I was a deep pocket, I don't know how cozy I would be making the assumption that the settling and filling would happen uniformly?
Murphy Siding , and as that slowly happened, the fill would work it's way into the voids.
The filled dirt would work its ways into voids left by rotting timbers over time. But it is not much of a practical problem. Even if a void forms, that does not mean that gravity will readily fill it with fill dirt from above, and work the void upward like a sink hole that finally breaks through the surface.
Soil that has filled around the pole that evenually rots has a fair amount of bridging ability, so many formed voids will simply remain undisplaced with setting fill.
Also, this was in the 1880-1920 era when filling trestles was most common. People then were not necessarily looking for the perfect solution. The effect of leaving sizable voids is not much different than simply failing to compact the original fill with anything beyond horses or related equipment.
As such, gradual settling will occur. When it does, they just haul more fill to the site and build up the the settled areas. Therefore, many fills are being gradually perfected over time.
EuclidAs such, gradual settling will occur. When it does, they just haul more fill to the site and build up the the settled areas. Therefore, many fills are being gradually perfected over time.
I found a wonderful picture of them performing the trestle-fill operation in my own town back in 1911 when the mains were grade seperated. Unfortunately I do not hold the rights to said picture, and do not want to set off the IP alarmists.....but it's a great picture showing the fill operation in progress.
SO yeah, it obviously was "done that way"...but again I personally don't have a lot of confidence that the rot, the settling, and the refilling will happen at uniform rates. Heart wood rots differently from the layers around it in my experience, open grain versus closed, etc etc too many variables.
But, as I mentioned earlier, most of the "bouncing track" instances that I have witnessed personally, are on those raised embankments....particularly where they abutt bridges and other viaducts....so perhaps those buzzards ARE coming home to roost.
And it never really ocurred to me previously why when I periodically see the thermite crews at work, it was usually on the raised embankments right next to one of those bridges. So, this is a definite "ah haaa" moment for me.
I'd imagine there was a sort of a natural compaction of the dirt, falling (at first) some 100' in some cases.
I've seen pictures of the process as well, but don't recall where.
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