rdamonA quick calc shows the BIG about 140-150 miles from LB/LA Ports. Would it be feasible for a crew to make the turn and return home in a shift?
While the point to point trip itself may only be four to five hours - the delays associated with originating and terminating the train at both ends of the run would likely make the crews time on duty be in the neighborhood of eight to nine hours. Easy trip point to point, however, near impossible to make a round trip within a single crew's Hours of Service.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Probably not. At an average speed of 30 MPH, the trip would be about 5 hours one way. Consider the delays in leaving the port and the low speed over Cajon Pass.
A quick calc shows the BIG about 140-150 miles from LB/LA Ports. Would it be feasible for a crew to make the turn and return home in a shift?
YoHo1975 How much existing traffic is IPI vs. containers being drayed around town? What is the actual number of containers that will potentially be addressed by this?
How much existing traffic is IPI vs. containers being drayed around town? What is the actual number of containers that will potentially be addressed by this?
Current share of IPI is roughly 25%. It has been as high as 45% in the past. COVID changed the paradigm in favor of greater transload.
How many TEU's this effects going forward remains to be seen. Alot of liner services have diverted to the Gulf and East Coast.
Towns in the Inland Empire are pushing back agains more distribution centers.
https://www.kcrw.com/news/shows/greater-la/logistics-industry-missing-women-fine-dining/inland-empire-warehouses-amazon
kgbw49 Aren't the Eastern Class I railroads already doing this on a smaller scale from Savannah and Charleston?
Aren't the Eastern Class I railroads already doing this on a smaller scale from Savannah and Charleston?
Yep
https://scspa.com/sc-ports-locations/inland-port-greer/
https://gaports.com/facilities/inland-ports/
Soon to be replicated in Alabama with an inland port in Montgomery.
https://www.alports.com/alabama-port-authority-to-build-an-inland-intermodal-transfer-facility-at-montgomery-al/
Everyone thinks those big transload centers are just removing the goods and stuffing them into domestic cans for shipment into the USA. Nope what they do is break down the sheer bulk of international shipments where everything is the same off the container into DC sized shipments or even store sized allotments of seasonal goods where they are then shipped to the DC closest to the stores that are going to get them pulled off those cans then shipped with that stores normal shipments of goods.
So lets take artifical Christmas trees for example. Those are allocated to the stores so many of such types and so forth. Well the manufactor in China makes one type of a tree stuffs the entire order into the overseas containers and then repeats until the order is completed with that years order of all types of trees. When they get to the USA the breakdown begins first at the transload faciality where they are seperated into distribution sized blocks stuffed into domestic containers then at the DC level into store allotments.
And you do get to operate outside of City/County of Los Angeles located at I-15 and the start of I-40 in an area with plenty of land to build warehouses.
YoHo1975 SD60MAC9500 I'm sure you are familair with pre-blocking. Which has been pretty numerous under "PSR"... Exisitng trains.. Trains that already originate in the Basin and flow through the Barstow Terminal would SO/PU blocks from, to POLA/POLB. UP is doing this now for traffic to be setout at SLC. But at the beginning of this thread it was offhandedly stated that this move would improve use of the gateway. Now it's not going to add additional trains just take the drayage moves on existing trains? And which existing trains? That really doesn't make sense. This is going to generate more trains between PoLA/LB and Barstow, remove trains from the basin to points east and replace them with trains from barstow to points east. I get the idea of Pre-blocking, but there wouldn't be enough trains to be able to do that. This only makes sense as a shuttle service. moving containers quickly from the port to Barstow for sorting and blocking.
SD60MAC9500 I'm sure you are familair with pre-blocking. Which has been pretty numerous under "PSR"... Exisitng trains.. Trains that already originate in the Basin and flow through the Barstow Terminal would SO/PU blocks from, to POLA/POLB. UP is doing this now for traffic to be setout at SLC.
But at the beginning of this thread it was offhandedly stated that this move would improve use of the gateway.
Now it's not going to add additional trains just take the drayage moves on existing trains? And which existing trains?
That really doesn't make sense. This is going to generate more trains between PoLA/LB and Barstow, remove trains from the basin to points east and replace them with trains from barstow to points east.
I get the idea of Pre-blocking, but there wouldn't be enough trains to be able to do that. This only makes sense as a shuttle service. moving containers quickly from the port to Barstow for sorting and blocking.
Sure and regardless of whether there's new train starts or not this will improve it. Also the Alameda Corridor collects its tolls on a TEU basis. Not train count. What crew base will cover all these shuttle trains? How much congestion will these shuttle trains bring to Cajon Pass? Why should BNSF lose margins hustling mostly MTY ISO containers over Cajon Pass in seperate trains? Theres's a sizeable imbalance of freight in this lane. You have alot more traffic eastbound than west..
How do you know there's not that many trains to do pre-blocking? BNSF dominates IPI traffic. Theres plenty of departures from both POLA/POLB to tack on an additional 5300' block to be setout at BIG. That's roughly 200 containers in that block alone. Due to all ISO boxes being drayed to the IE that's the potential. Adding a block of traffic to existing eastbound IPI trains for S/O at BIG.
I'm not saying there won't be new trains or possibly some shuttles. However from an operations point of view. Running that many shorthaul shuttles with low margins evaporates any linehaul profit due to terminal cost... If sufficient volume of traffic develops at BIG to offset MTY repositioning, and switching cost perhaps, but until then it won't happen in the short term..
dpeltier charlie hebdo So removing the contents of a 40' container and repacking them in a 53' container whether in a port or Barstow is supposed to be efficient? The labor costs alone should inform us otherwise. It's not a matter of taking 4 international containers and putting the contents into 3 domestic containers. It's a matter of taking the contents of hundreds of 40' boxes, which were loaded based on where the contents were manufactured, and sorting them into hundreds of 53' boxes based on where the contents are needed. The same step was always necessary somewhere along the chain anyway (your local Wal-Mart doesn't really need a whole shipping container full of crayons or Disney-character-themed bath toys). At some point people realized that, by doing the sorting near the coast, they take advantage of the bigger container for the long haul. Dan
charlie hebdo So removing the contents of a 40' container and repacking them in a 53' container whether in a port or Barstow is supposed to be efficient? The labor costs alone should inform us otherwise.
So removing the contents of a 40' container and repacking them in a 53' container whether in a port or Barstow is supposed to be efficient?
The labor costs alone should inform us otherwise.
It's not a matter of taking 4 international containers and putting the contents into 3 domestic containers. It's a matter of taking the contents of hundreds of 40' boxes, which were loaded based on where the contents were manufactured, and sorting them into hundreds of 53' boxes based on where the contents are needed. The same step was always necessary somewhere along the chain anyway (your local Wal-Mart doesn't really need a whole shipping container full of crayons or Disney-character-themed bath toys). At some point people realized that, by doing the sorting near the coast, they take advantage of the bigger container for the long haul.
Dan
But the Wal-Mart Distribution Center will get several containers full of the merchandise ordered and will then supply 50/100/200 stores with their allotment along with the other products a individual Wal-Mart has on order.
Seems like the term "break bulk" would apply here.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
I share your view, but apparently somebody has done the math and decided that it's worthwhile.
I don't remember whether it's been mentioned, but it could be that these facilities could be acting as distribution centers. Contents of each 40' container might broken up into shipments to different parts of the country, and the 53-footers might contain goods from several different 40-footers.
_____________
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SD60MAC9500I'm sure you are familair with pre-blocking. Which has been pretty numerous under "PSR"... Exisitng trains.. Trains that already originate in the Basin and flow through the Barstow Terminal would SO/PU blocks from, to POLA/POLB. UP is doing this now for traffic to be setout at SLC.
charlie hebdo Perhaps I am missing something so let me ask what actually happens. Are the smaller international shipping containers transported to Barstow, taken off flatcars, contents unloaded and then packed into longer larger domestic containers? How is that more efficient?
Perhaps I am missing something so let me ask what actually happens. Are the smaller international shipping containers transported to Barstow, taken off flatcars, contents unloaded and then packed into longer larger domestic containers? How is that more efficient?
It's more efficient, because that's in essence what is already happening.
International containers are less efficient. By moving to domestic containers each train can haul more goods to a destination than the same train with 40' containers.
The difference between BIG and what was happening is tha tthe drayage is now handled by the railroad and is at a much larger dedicated facility rather than Tying up LA basin freeways.
Kind of a note: recently, I've observed 'our' morning train{used to be some JBH double stacks followed by a plethora of [many reefers, and some CC vans]TOFC's on the 'tail'; last several days; it has come through with a number of double stacked JBH 53 cans on its' tail'.. Can they already be shipping re-loads out of BIG now?
Someoe mentioned, it was approx 130 miles from the PofLA to BIG, do not forget that just West of KC's Argentine Yard is the BNSF's Logistics Park at Gardner, Kansas; it is an origin/ destination for many of BNSF's East orWest bound stackers (Domestic and Import-Export stuff). At a recent time, it was touted as KC's 'Inland Port' (?)
SD60MAC9500He does more PR stunts than produce actual remedies for POLA issues..
So sad when you get someone in an important position that views shameless self promotion as a higher priority than actual results. Seen that more than I care too in my life. Usually always a politician or government appointee.
CMStPnP SD60MAC9500 A few of us have been advocating over the years for this to happen. Not only is the IE running out of real estate. BNSF and UP have very little room to build or expand current IM ramps. Hence why UP is slowly converting West Colton into its IE IM ramp. It won't be a full conversion as WC still plays an important role in Sou Cal carload business.. WC will probably morph into a mini-hump a la Livonia, Louisiana. It seems to me that if either railroad knew the clients business a little better. And both railroads should be asking detailed questions to learn their clients business so they can tailor their service levels better. This whole practice could have been resolved a lot sooner and more efficiently at far less cost. To me this seems very reactive vs proactive and only reacting when the situation becomes an obvious logjam.
SD60MAC9500 A few of us have been advocating over the years for this to happen. Not only is the IE running out of real estate. BNSF and UP have very little room to build or expand current IM ramps. Hence why UP is slowly converting West Colton into its IE IM ramp. It won't be a full conversion as WC still plays an important role in Sou Cal carload business.. WC will probably morph into a mini-hump a la Livonia, Louisiana.
It seems to me that if either railroad knew the clients business a little better. And both railroads should be asking detailed questions to learn their clients business so they can tailor their service levels better. This whole practice could have been resolved a lot sooner and more efficiently at far less cost. To me this seems very reactive vs proactive and only reacting when the situation becomes an obvious logjam.
One was a matter of cost. Making the shorthaul feasible. I'll add Gene Seroka the current Port Director at POLA isn't about creating efficiency. He does more PR stunts than produce actual remedies for POLA issues..
YoHo1975 SD60MAC9500 A few things. I imagine most of the traffic to BIG will ride in existing trains. Such as UP is currently doing from POLB-SLC. It probably isn't worth the investment to keep a different set of locos for a supposed electrification of Cajon Pass. The big benefit will be the reduction of dray moves between the IE and POLA/POLB. Also once UP starts building out more of its WC IM ramp. This will reduce fuel use, dray cost, and help with traffic congestion somewhat. Which existing trains? How would that even work? There aren't currently trains moving from PoLA/LB to Barstow. I would imagine that some portion of intermodal trains that formerly originated and terminated in the basin would now terminate in Barstow. Shuttle trains from the port to Barstow would be all new trains. Or are you suggesting trains that currently handle drayage within the basin (not many of those I imagine) would now do the same to Barstow? But even then, a local in the basin doesn't have the same power requirements as a unit train climbing the pass. So yeah, dedicated locomotives COULD make a lot of sense in this service.
SD60MAC9500 A few things. I imagine most of the traffic to BIG will ride in existing trains. Such as UP is currently doing from POLB-SLC. It probably isn't worth the investment to keep a different set of locos for a supposed electrification of Cajon Pass. The big benefit will be the reduction of dray moves between the IE and POLA/POLB. Also once UP starts building out more of its WC IM ramp. This will reduce fuel use, dray cost, and help with traffic congestion somewhat.
A few things. I imagine most of the traffic to BIG will ride in existing trains. Such as UP is currently doing from POLB-SLC. It probably isn't worth the investment to keep a different set of locos for a supposed electrification of Cajon Pass. The big benefit will be the reduction of dray moves between the IE and POLA/POLB.
Also once UP starts building out more of its WC IM ramp. This will reduce fuel use, dray cost, and help with traffic congestion somewhat.
Which existing trains? How would that even work? There aren't currently trains moving from PoLA/LB to Barstow. I would imagine that some portion of intermodal trains that formerly originated and terminated in the basin would now terminate in Barstow. Shuttle trains from the port to Barstow would be all new trains.
Or are you suggesting trains that currently handle drayage within the basin (not many of those I imagine) would now do the same to Barstow? But even then, a local in the basin doesn't have the same power requirements as a unit train climbing the pass.
So yeah, dedicated locomotives COULD make a lot of sense in this service.
I'm sure you are familair with pre-blocking. Which has been pretty numerous under "PSR"... Exisitng trains.. Trains that already originate in the Basin and flow through the Barstow Terminal would SO/PU blocks from, to POLA/POLB. UP is doing this now for traffic to be setout at SLC.
rdamon SD60MAC9500 rdamon I seem to remember BNSF purchasing this land many years ago with this in mind. The original location was to be Victorville, but that didn't pan out. Wasn't that a different group trying to build something at the former George AFB site? You can see the initial construction on Google Earth
SD60MAC9500 rdamon I seem to remember BNSF purchasing this land many years ago with this in mind. The original location was to be Victorville, but that didn't pan out.
rdamon I seem to remember BNSF purchasing this land many years ago with this in mind.
I seem to remember BNSF purchasing this land many years ago with this in mind.
The original location was to be Victorville, but that didn't pan out.
Wasn't that a different group trying to build something at the former George AFB site?
You can see the initial construction on Google Earth
It was suppose to be a joint project between BNSF and another entity. BNSF signed a letter of intent. That's about all it amounted too.
Here's an old news link on the then proposed SCRC(Southern California Rail Complex) https://www.progressiverailroading.com/rail_industry_trends/news/New-intermodal-terminal-at-southern-California-airport-on-BNSFs-agenda--3071
YoHo1975 I mentioned in the Locomotives forum that I could also see this driving electricifcation in the Basin and potentially over Cajon...Not saying I'm bullish on that, but a 130mile route that is going to be a massively busy corridor with a lot of trains ending at Barstow is a pretty good test subject for electrification. Barstow isn't going to win any awards for California living. and the Traffic on I15 is already terrible, but It is convinent to Las Vegas and the Inland Empire while still being a day trip to LA. I don't think it will be that hard a sell.
I mentioned in the Locomotives forum that I could also see this driving electricifcation in the Basin and potentially over Cajon...Not saying I'm bullish on that, but a 130mile route that is going to be a massively busy corridor with a lot of trains ending at Barstow is a pretty good test subject for electrification.
Barstow isn't going to win any awards for California living. and the Traffic on I15 is already terrible, but It is convinent to Las Vegas and the Inland Empire while still being a day trip to LA. I don't think it will be that hard a sell.
CMStPnPTo me this seems very reactive vs proactive and only reacting when the situation becomes an obvious logjam.
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