Trains.com

CSX’s attendance policy

11551 views
93 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    April 2007
  • 4,557 posts
Posted by Convicted One on Friday, October 21, 2022 5:06 PM

BaltACD
Those that haven't worked under the conditions that railroaders in Pool or Extra Board service cannot comprehend what those working conditions actually are.  They can't comprehend the 2 AM phone call to report for duty at 4 AM Monday.  Working to get their train assembled.

I dunno about that Balt,  I've endured  my share of surprise calls that lead to 30 hour shifts, or to being called out of town on an hour's notice...and I was salaried, to boot.

 

Any job worth having experiences hardships. That's why they pay above minimum wage. My 2 Cents

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • 1,754 posts
Posted by diningcar on Friday, October 21, 2022 5:53 PM

[quote user="Convicted One"]I dunno about that Balt,  I've endured  my share of surprise calls that lead to 30 hour shifts, or to being called out of town on an hour's notice...and I was salaried, to boot.   Any job worth having experiences hardships. That's why they pay above minimum wage. 

Me too Convicted One, and I would do it all again, with perhaps a few days excluded that no one could control.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Friday, October 21, 2022 6:44 PM

Convicted One
 
BaltACD
Those that haven't worked under the conditions that railroaders in Pool or Extra Board service cannot comprehend what those working conditions actually are.  They can't comprehend the 2 AM phone call to report for duty at 4 AM Monday.  Working to get their train assembled. 

I dunno about that Balt,  I've endured  my share of surprise calls that lead to 30 hour shifts, or to being called out of town on an hour's notice...and I was salaried, to boot. 

Any job worth having experiences hardships. That's why they pay above minimum wage. My 2 Cents

When you get that type treatment as a one off, or even once or twice a year it isn't THAT objectionable.  When that is representative of your NORMAL work experience, day in, day out, week in, week out - that is when the 'indians' want to revolt - and do so in many cases by obtaining other employment.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    February 2016
  • From: Texas
  • 1,552 posts
Posted by PJS1 on Friday, October 21, 2022 10:43 PM
Everyone of the three corporations that I worked for granted employees time off for personal issues, i.e., doctor, dentist, funerals, new births, etc.  The was true for union as well as nonunion employees.  And it was true for everyone from the executive suite to the mailroom.
 
The challenge for supervisors and managers was to flag the relatively small number of employees that gamed the system.  We even had training programs to help detect the shirkers.  The other side of the coin were the employees that came to work sick. We had to counsel them in a supportive manner to go home until they were well. 
 
Every person wants and deserves to be respected.  Treating them like children is not the way to get there.    
 
I never worked for a railroad.  Having grown up in Altoona, I got some insights into what it was like to work in the shops and on the trains, but that is a long way from experiencing it.  

Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII

  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,221 posts
Posted by Euclid on Saturday, October 22, 2022 8:40 AM

BaltACD
Those that haven't worked under the conditions that railroaders in Pool or Extra Board service cannot comprehend what those working conditions actually are.

I don’t see how Labor can achieve what they regard as an improvement in attendance policies unless they can make the case that the policies are harming health and safety; thus posing a danger to employees and the general public.  Making that case convincingly would provide strong legal and regulatory leverage to improve the dangerous working conditions. 
 
I agree that people who have never worked under railroad conditions will not easily understand them.  But the legal and regulatory solution will have to come from many such people who don’t understand the problem.  
 
What is needed is a video presentation in the most clear, diagrammatic format that can present the entire case of these dangerous working conditions in a way that anyone can truly relate to them.   With the intense focus on this problem that exists, I am surprised that this has not already been done.  
 
There has already been a lot of focus on the dangers of fatigue created by the biological dangers of night shift work upsetting the natural balance of humans. Unpredictable shift work scheduling further upsets this balance.  So it seems to me that sets the stage for making the case that this problem is being accelerated as things move forward with widely publicized understaffing of railroad workers in safety sensitive work.   
  • Member since
    January 2002
  • From: Canterlot
  • 9,575 posts
Posted by zugmann on Saturday, October 22, 2022 12:45 PM

But you have to explain all this to people that have the attention span of half a tiktok video. 

 

 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, October 22, 2022 12:52 PM

Heard something on radio today that I have NEVER heard before!

CSX advertizing as a equal opportunity employer, no degree required for CONDUCTORS.

This is in the Baltimore area, I don't know if they are running ads in other areas.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Sunday, October 23, 2022 10:02 AM

BaltACD

Heard something on radio today that I have NEVER heard before!

CSX advertizing as a equal opportunity employer, no degree required for CONDUCTORS.

This is in the Baltimore area, I don't know if they are running ads in other areas.

 
I have seen electronic billboards in the Chicago area with similar messages from CSX.
The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,221 posts
Posted by Euclid on Sunday, October 23, 2022 5:54 PM

zugmann

But you have to explain all this to people that have the attention span of half a tiktok video. 

Oh I think they will be able to understand it if it is clearly explained.  But the explanation contains many interrelated facts.  Explainers of something like this tend to state one fact after another, thus building the explanation “one brick at a time.”  They know where all those facts lead, so they assume one hearing the explanation will understand it if they are shown the same pile of facts. 
 
But the one receiving the explanation has no prior knowledge of it, so they must wait until they have the whole pile of facts without knowing how they fit together.  Only then can they begin to assemble the pile of facts as though it were a puzzle where every possible solution must be tried out. 
 
A good explanation should begin with a summary of the conclusion to convey the whole picture in a generally understandable way.  Then using that conclusion as a  template, you fill in the facts along with an explanation of how each fact fits into the preceding facts stated, thus maintaining a total understanding of whole story as it develops.   Each added fact has to be built into the total explanation along the way.  This way, the explanation can be tracked as it develops.  Video graphics could help to reinforce this explanation as it builds. 
 
By using this approach, an increment of the entire explanation is conveyed with each added fact; but the understanding of all facts up to that point is maintained throughout the total explanation.
 
Developing this kind of super-explanation would be a lot of work, but spreading an understanding of this complex issue is essential to building support for a solution.  
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Sunday, October 23, 2022 7:24 PM

Euclid
 
zugmann

But you have to explain all this to people that have the attention span of half a tiktok video.  

Oh I think they will be able to understand it if it is clearly explained.  But the explanation contains many interrelated facts.  Explainers of something like this tend to state one fact after another, thus building the explanation “one brick at a time.”  They know where all those facts lead, so they assume one hearing the explanation will understand it if they are shown the same pile of facts. 
 
...

It can be fully and factually explained to someone and they will go - I know, I know I know.  But until the reality of the real situations hit them squarely up side the head - THEY DON'T KNOW.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    August 2004
  • From: The 17th hole at TPC
  • 2,283 posts
Posted by n012944 on Sunday, October 23, 2022 8:59 PM

CSSHEGEWISCH

 

 
BaltACD

Heard something on radio today that I have NEVER heard before!

CSX advertizing as a equal opportunity employer, no degree required for CONDUCTORS.

This is in the Baltimore area, I don't know if they are running ads in other areas.

 

 

 
I have seen electronic billboards in the Chicago area with similar messages from CSX.
 

 

You will see them in JAX as well.

An "expensive model collector"

  • Member since
    August 2006
  • From: Matthews NC
  • 363 posts
Posted by matthewsaggie on Sunday, October 23, 2022 9:42 PM

Ads are on Facebook, too.

  • Member since
    March 2016
  • From: Burbank IL (near Clearing)
  • 13,540 posts
Posted by CSSHEGEWISCH on Monday, October 24, 2022 10:02 AM

Any number of trucking firms are posting the same "Help Wanted" ads.  It would appear that jobs that involve a fair amount of time away from home are viewed as to be avoided and getting new hires is difficult at best.

The daily commute is part of everyday life but I get two rides a day out of it. Paul
  • Member since
    July 2010
  • 351 posts
Posted by ns145 on Monday, October 24, 2022 11:24 AM

zugmann

 

 
Convicted One
Over the past month or so, I've come to the same conclusion.  The draconian rules wouldn't even be necessary if every employee was a model servant

 

But that's not what happened. It's a cute story  - but far from reality.  What really happened is they laid off a lot of people, got rid of many scheduled and regular jobs, and when people started quitting and new people stopped trying to hire on,  they freaked out because they couldn't staff the pools/lists like they did just before the new operating philosophies.   But that isn't as fun as a story to tell on railfan boards.  

 

 

 

Careful zugman.  You're starting to come across as one of those uppity chest-thumpers that need to be "dealt with" in order for the poor, beleagured Class I railroad industry to survive. 

  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,221 posts
Posted by Euclid on Monday, October 24, 2022 1:07 PM

BaltACD

 

 
Euclid
 
zugmann

But you have to explain all this to people that have the attention span of half a tiktok video.  

Oh I think they will be able to understand it if it is clearly explained.  But the explanation contains many interrelated facts.  Explainers of something like this tend to state one fact after another, thus building the explanation “one brick at a time.”  They know where all those facts lead, so they assume one hearing the explanation will understand it if they are shown the same pile of facts. 
 
...

 

 

It can be fully and factually explained to someone and they will go - I know, I know I know.  But until the reality of the real situations hit them squarely up side the head - THEY DON'T KNOW.

 

They will never know what the problem is like if it is explained as I describe in the part of my post that you quoted.  That was my point of how not to do it.  And yes I agree with your point that there are people who will refuse to hear an explanation no matter how carefully it is laid out.  However, if it is explained well to a person who will listen, they will understand it without needing to experience it directly as railroad employees do.
 
I have seen many videos by railroaders making great effort to explain their plight of bad working conditions.  Obviously, they are trying to explain it to non-railroaders.  Why would they be doing that if they believe that nobody can understand the grievance unless they are actually working under the bad conditions?
 
I think the public does have a general idea of the history of the problem.  Everyone I ever talked to about working for a railroad told me that the working conditions were bad because irregular working schedules, night shift work, regular days off that were not on weekends, being away from home, being on call without knowing when or if the call will come, and being outside is all types of weather for much of the time.  They all told me that the job was okay for single guys, but not for family men.  I assume this was well known before 1900.
 
So one thing that needs to be made clear in today’s explanation of the problem is whether or not it refers to this long standing, widely recognized issue of bad working conditions.  If it refers to that, it seems that a demand to suddenly eliminate that is an awful lot to ask for. 
 
But apparently, the complaint today is only about what has changed in the last 2-4 years, and it is generally blamed on PSR, which itself has conflicting interpretations of what it is. 
  • Member since
    January 2002
  • From: Canterlot
  • 9,575 posts
Posted by zugmann on Monday, October 24, 2022 1:34 PM

BaltACD
CSX advertizing as a equal opportunity employer, no degree required for CONDUCTORS.

My favorite are the companies (obvisouly not railroads)  that advertise "NO THC TESTING!!!"

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

  • Member since
    January 2002
  • From: Canterlot
  • 9,575 posts
Posted by zugmann on Monday, October 24, 2022 1:35 PM

Euclid
I have seen many videos by railroaders making great effort to explain their plight of bad working conditions.  Obviously, they are trying to explain it to non-railroaders.  Why would they be doing that if they believe that nobody can understand the grievance unless they are actually working under the bad conditions?

Sisyphus?

 

 Also, sometimes it can be therapeutic to type out a response you know will be ignored.  Or make a vlog, if you're into that.  

 

I know half the stuff I pound out on here isn't going to be read.  That's ok.  

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

  • Member since
    September 2017
  • 5,636 posts
Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, October 24, 2022 1:51 PM

zugmann

 

 
Euclid
I have seen many videos by railroaders making great effort to explain their plight of bad working conditions.  Obviously, they are trying to explain it to non-railroaders.  Why would they be doing that if they believe that nobody can understand the grievance unless they are actually working under the bad conditions?

 

Sisyphus?

 

 Also, sometimes it can be therapeutic to type out a response you know will be ignored.  Or make a vlog, if you're into that.  

 

I know half the stuff I pound out on here isn't going to be read.  That's ok.  

 

More "chest thumping" on here?  Maybe you need some "stick," whatever that is?!!!

Oops - Sign

 

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • 4,557 posts
Posted by Convicted One on Monday, October 24, 2022 2:35 PM

BaltACD
When that is representative of your NORMAL work experience, day in, day out, week in, week out - that is when the 'indians' want to revolt - and do so in many cases by obtaining other employment.

 

It was really your singing the old "No one knows the Trouble I've seen"  lyric that I took exception to, it seems to have been  a popular dodg'em ploy here for years.  Could we also say  that only a plumber understands what always flows downhill?  Whistling

I think I can look in from the outside and appreciate the deterioration of the QOL issues without joining the union.

But hey, I've also had to come to understand with jobs where  I objected to their working conditions, (I've had a few)  that until it's my name on the door, I can make recommendations, hope for redress. But ultimately  it's the decision whether to stay and endure unremedied problems,  is the one under my control.    Hoot'in, Holler'in, and threatening to hold my breath, usually bears little fruit.

It's unfortunate, but I firmly believe the one ace the ownership is holding is an understanding that many of the  disgruntled employees are unlikely to find equivalent earnings potential doing anything else that they are qualified to do. So, management has the will to play out their hand.

It doesn't take a weatherman to know which way that wind blows. Wink

  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,221 posts
Posted by Euclid on Monday, October 24, 2022 2:36 PM

zugmann

 

 
Euclid
I have seen many videos by railroaders making great effort to explain their plight of bad working conditions.  Obviously, they are trying to explain it to non-railroaders.  Why would they be doing that if they believe that nobody can understand the grievance unless they are actually working under the bad conditions?

 

Sisyphus?

 

 Also, sometimes it can be therapeutic to type out a response you know will be ignored.  Or make a vlog, if you're into that.  

 

I know half the stuff I pound out on here isn't going to be read.  That's ok.  

 

 
Are you saying they are complaining about something that is not real just for the pleasure of rolling the boulder up the hill? 
  • Member since
    April 2007
  • 4,557 posts
Posted by Convicted One on Monday, October 24, 2022 2:48 PM

Euclid
Why would they be doing that if they believe that nobody can understand the grievance unless they are actually working under the bad conditions?

The claim that one is "only able to understand once they are a railroad employee" is mostly posturing, IMO.   Similar in scope to the "the railroad was here first" defense we typically hear directed towards NIMBY's (try telling that to a Bison)

  • Member since
    January 2002
  • From: Canterlot
  • 9,575 posts
Posted by zugmann on Monday, October 24, 2022 3:48 PM

Euclid
Are you saying they are complaining about something that is not real just for the pleasure of rolling the boulder up the hill? 

No.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

  • Member since
    July 2016
  • 2,631 posts
Posted by Backshop on Monday, October 24, 2022 5:07 PM

Euclid
  And yes I agree with your point that there are people who will refuse to hear an explanation no matter how carefully it is laid out.  

You just described yourself to a "T".

  • Member since
    September 2017
  • 5,636 posts
Posted by charlie hebdo on Monday, October 24, 2022 6:04 PM

Convicted One

 

 
Euclid
Why would they be doing that if they believe that nobody can understand the grievance unless they are actually working under the bad conditions?

 

The claim that one is "only able to understand once they are a railroad employee" is mostly posturing, IMO.   Similar in scope to the "the railroad was here first" defense we typically hear directed towards NIMBY's (try telling that to a Bison)

 

Not impossible to understand another person's working conditions but very hard unless you have an open mind and empathy.  Your essentially "love it or leave it" remark informs us that you don't.

  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,221 posts
Posted by Euclid on Monday, October 24, 2022 8:22 PM
Here is a far reaching and detailed discussion about the problems of railroad working conditions including the objectionable business practices of the railroads.  It explores solutions such as government ownership of the track infrastructure.
 
RAILROAD WORKERS ARE BEING GROUND TO DUST. WHO WILL HELP THEM?
 
  • Member since
    January 2014
  • 8,221 posts
Posted by Euclid on Tuesday, October 25, 2022 9:18 AM
Here is a good description of the overall problem with working conditions:
 
‘Completely demoralized’: US railroad workers pushed to the brink
 
  • Member since
    April 2007
  • 4,557 posts
Posted by Convicted One on Tuesday, October 25, 2022 12:39 PM

charlie hebdo
Not impossible to understand another person's working conditions but very hard unless you have an open mind and empathy.  Your essentially "love it or leave it" remark informs us that you don't.

Sorry if my frankness displeases you.

I believe on a more macro level, what is happening here is ABSOLUTELY "nothing new".

It might be new to railroaders, but seeded (or "provoked",  if one prefers that word) attrition is not a new tool. It came to retail when they decided that creativity was best left up to corporate minds and store employees time is best spent keeping shelves stocked. It came to manufacturing when they decided  anyone in the 3rd world could pull a lever as well as anyone in America........and since they cannot offshore domestic logistics, they have to work with the means available to them.

I've had jobs where new corporate strategy dictated a thinning of the herd through any means possible, and it didn't take me long to figure out that the employees I was being forced to find creative ways to get rid of, were NOT going to be replaced. Corporate intention was to simply load up the employees "lucky" enough to stay,  with the work previously performed by the departed ones (in addition to their normal duties).

As an industry matures, it's needs in employees change. Those are the things they teach you in pursuit of advanced degrees.  Welcome to Capitalism 201. Indifferent

We keep hearing footsteps about automated trains,  perhaps (this is just speculation, so don't come out accusing me of conspiracy theory)....but it's not unthinkable the industry might try to use a work stoppage as an excuse to make the next logical step towards automation.

Perhaps they are more ready for it, than we commoners can appreciate?

Just a thought.

 

  • Member since
    September 2017
  • 5,636 posts
Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, October 25, 2022 1:01 PM

Sorry if I misunderstood your position.  I sadly agree with you about corporate philosophy with regard to its employees. The concept of decency has largely departed all in the name of the almighty market. Automated trains, at least on major mainlines of the class ones, aren't far off.

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: US
  • 25,292 posts
Posted by BaltACD on Tuesday, October 25, 2022 1:17 PM

Ah yes!  The automated Board Room.

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

  • Member since
    April 2007
  • 4,557 posts
Posted by Convicted One on Tuesday, October 25, 2022 2:18 PM

This is not intended as any slight to the working railroaders we have here....but there is this odd corporate dementia where the top dogs trivialize the contributions of the rank and file to the point they really start believing "anyone with a pulse can do (whatever task)"

And when they start thinking that way, they see everyone as just a $number, afterall, with the execs doing all the thinking, all the "hard work" is already done, right?  <-----sarcasm   

Brief tangent ....but after my main career, I had to fill in a few  years with "bridge" jobs to get to retirement age. And one of those was retail.  After 9 months the regional manager comes into the store one day, takes the store manager into the back room...comes out 10 minutes later, hands me her keys and tells me that I am the new store manager. 

What he didn't tell me that day was that all thinking parts of that job were being moved upstairs, and that I would essentially be foreman of the sales floor, with a fancy title.    And immediately they began enforcing a rigid points system, that really was just a formula designed to reduce staff.

It killed me to have to write up my most productive staff for being 2 minutes late....knowing that a third write up meant mandatory dismissal. Especially after the discovery that there would be no new hires to replace them.  Attrition was the new order.

I think the moral here is that once the companies start readily dismissing even their best producers over picayune reasons (the "stick", in other words)  it's foolish to take anything they tell you at face value.  "Bigger things" are almost always part of the mix. After a couple years of being "rack foreman",  I started feeling more like a stooge than a manager, and put in my notice.

The guy who had handed me those keys ended up quitting 6 months later. It's easy to paint an evil face on the bearer of bad news. But with his departure I came to suspect he had been in the same boat I had been in...just a little "closer to the flame".

I'd like to think that my resignation might have inspired him.  Smile, Wink & Grin

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

Newsletter Sign-Up

By signing up you may also receive occasional reader surveys and special offers from Trains magazine.Please view our privacy policy