Ulrich Murphy Siding I'm hesitant to jump into a thread that will probably run off the tracks as being not really about railroading. <There, I put in my effort to make it somewhat railroad oriented. euclid wants to make it all about money. That's too simple-minded. In more realistic terms, it's more like bang for the buck. Your job has to have a balance between what you get paid, how much you like or dislike the job, and whether you can pay the mortgage and have a life. It's a moving target, as so many factors affect it. Like it or not, I am middle management. I have about 17-18 guys working for me. On average, most of us have worked there between 10 and 15 years. (33 for me, and I'm about 6th in time companywide). My newest guy has been there a month. I haven't had an overly amount of turnover, but the rate is increasing. In the last 12 monts, I've had 4 people move on. All 4 had worked there less than a year. Two left for personal reasons (their personal lives were a mess and they thought being a mess at a different job would somehow be different?) One left for better pay, but more importantly, better opportunities to advance. The most recent one left to develop his part-time business into his full-time dream job. None of the 4 left simply because the employer down the road is paying more. There's always that balance. What works for my operation is to treat employees like humans and not like replaceable cogs in a machine. Treat your employees well and they will treat the company well. Treat them like dirt, and you get what you deserve. Right now, I have 18 guys that work together as a team. We're all rowing in the same direction and we all know where we're going, and why. And, they all get along with each other! Seven miles away, our sister company has the exact same operation, with a different outlook and different results. Our upper managment must be similar to that of a railroad, or any other big corporation. It's all about money and money is all about numbers- people be damned, you're getting in the way of additional profits. A lot of years back, I worked for a big corporation. When they sent any paperwork to employees, it was always sent to your home address. They didn't put your name on it. Mine were addressed to Big Corporation employee #43-04. I always felt like that was their way of reminding me that I was a replaceable part in a machine. This month, we set a new all-time sales record. Next week, I'm ordering pizzas for the crew and telling them thanks for their hard work. I won't hear a peep from upper management about the sales record, but I will hear about why I spent precious company money on pizza. I bet the railroads don't buy pizza for their employees or tell them thank you for their hard work. They probably should. Pay is important, but it's not the only thing that keeps people at a specific job. I guess a thank you and a pizza works for some. In my days working for various carriers large and small we had "appreciation days" and other "feel good" events, but they came across as contrived and insincere. But if it works for some people then I suppose they have some value. Personally I never needed thank you gestures, sincere or otherwise, pizzas or fake appreciation events. I did my job..they paid me..The End.
Murphy Siding I'm hesitant to jump into a thread that will probably run off the tracks as being not really about railroading. <There, I put in my effort to make it somewhat railroad oriented. euclid wants to make it all about money. That's too simple-minded. In more realistic terms, it's more like bang for the buck. Your job has to have a balance between what you get paid, how much you like or dislike the job, and whether you can pay the mortgage and have a life. It's a moving target, as so many factors affect it. Like it or not, I am middle management. I have about 17-18 guys working for me. On average, most of us have worked there between 10 and 15 years. (33 for me, and I'm about 6th in time companywide). My newest guy has been there a month. I haven't had an overly amount of turnover, but the rate is increasing. In the last 12 monts, I've had 4 people move on. All 4 had worked there less than a year. Two left for personal reasons (their personal lives were a mess and they thought being a mess at a different job would somehow be different?) One left for better pay, but more importantly, better opportunities to advance. The most recent one left to develop his part-time business into his full-time dream job. None of the 4 left simply because the employer down the road is paying more. There's always that balance. What works for my operation is to treat employees like humans and not like replaceable cogs in a machine. Treat your employees well and they will treat the company well. Treat them like dirt, and you get what you deserve. Right now, I have 18 guys that work together as a team. We're all rowing in the same direction and we all know where we're going, and why. And, they all get along with each other! Seven miles away, our sister company has the exact same operation, with a different outlook and different results. Our upper managment must be similar to that of a railroad, or any other big corporation. It's all about money and money is all about numbers- people be damned, you're getting in the way of additional profits. A lot of years back, I worked for a big corporation. When they sent any paperwork to employees, it was always sent to your home address. They didn't put your name on it. Mine were addressed to Big Corporation employee #43-04. I always felt like that was their way of reminding me that I was a replaceable part in a machine. This month, we set a new all-time sales record. Next week, I'm ordering pizzas for the crew and telling them thanks for their hard work. I won't hear a peep from upper management about the sales record, but I will hear about why I spent precious company money on pizza. I bet the railroads don't buy pizza for their employees or tell them thank you for their hard work. They probably should. Pay is important, but it's not the only thing that keeps people at a specific job.
I'm hesitant to jump into a thread that will probably run off the tracks as being not really about railroading. <There, I put in my effort to make it somewhat railroad oriented. euclid wants to make it all about money. That's too simple-minded. In more realistic terms, it's more like bang for the buck. Your job has to have a balance between what you get paid, how much you like or dislike the job, and whether you can pay the mortgage and have a life. It's a moving target, as so many factors affect it. Like it or not, I am middle management. I have about 17-18 guys working for me. On average, most of us have worked there between 10 and 15 years. (33 for me, and I'm about 6th in time companywide). My newest guy has been there a month. I haven't had an overly amount of turnover, but the rate is increasing. In the last 12 monts, I've had 4 people move on. All 4 had worked there less than a year. Two left for personal reasons (their personal lives were a mess and they thought being a mess at a different job would somehow be different?) One left for better pay, but more importantly, better opportunities to advance. The most recent one left to develop his part-time business into his full-time dream job. None of the 4 left simply because the employer down the road is paying more. There's always that balance. What works for my operation is to treat employees like humans and not like replaceable cogs in a machine. Treat your employees well and they will treat the company well. Treat them like dirt, and you get what you deserve. Right now, I have 18 guys that work together as a team. We're all rowing in the same direction and we all know where we're going, and why. And, they all get along with each other! Seven miles away, our sister company has the exact same operation, with a different outlook and different results. Our upper managment must be similar to that of a railroad, or any other big corporation. It's all about money and money is all about numbers- people be damned, you're getting in the way of additional profits. A lot of years back, I worked for a big corporation. When they sent any paperwork to employees, it was always sent to your home address. They didn't put your name on it. Mine were addressed to Big Corporation employee #43-04. I always felt like that was their way of reminding me that I was a replaceable part in a machine. This month, we set a new all-time sales record. Next week, I'm ordering pizzas for the crew and telling them thanks for their hard work. I won't hear a peep from upper management about the sales record, but I will hear about why I spent precious company money on pizza. I bet the railroads don't buy pizza for their employees or tell them thank you for their hard work. They probably should. Pay is important, but it's not the only thing that keeps people at a specific job.
I guess a thank you and a pizza works for some. In my days working for various carriers large and small we had "appreciation days" and other "feel good" events, but they came across as contrived and insincere. But if it works for some people then I suppose they have some value. Personally I never needed thank you gestures, sincere or otherwise, pizzas or fake appreciation events. I did my job..they paid me..The End.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
jeffhergert n012944 Backshop If the railroads offered higher wages now, they would want more onerous work rules in return. Railroads are currently pushing the unions to accept the PEB's 24% raise without any work rules changes. I've heard the negotiations with SMART-TD and BLE&T are not looking good. The railroads still are wanting less than the PEB recommended. I've not heard details, but I'm guessing it's over the Healthcare portion. Labor came out ahead compared to what the railroads wanted. Jeff
n012944 Backshop If the railroads offered higher wages now, they would want more onerous work rules in return. Railroads are currently pushing the unions to accept the PEB's 24% raise without any work rules changes.
Backshop If the railroads offered higher wages now, they would want more onerous work rules in return.
If the railroads offered higher wages now, they would want more onerous work rules in return.
Railroads are currently pushing the unions to accept the PEB's 24% raise without any work rules changes.
I've heard the negotiations with SMART-TD and BLE&T are not looking good. The railroads still are wanting less than the PEB recommended. I've not heard details, but I'm guessing it's over the Healthcare portion. Labor came out ahead compared to what the railroads wanted.
Jeff
The ATDA has just reached an agreement that pretty much matches the PEB. I am hearing that it won't pass, do to the lack of a "me too" clause. We will see.
https://www.atda.org/atda-reaches-tentative-national-agreement/
An "expensive model collector"
But if the ATDA were to ratify, but 'everybody else' votes to strike, would the dispatchers not stand in solidarity when management starts trying to operate trains?
Extinction.
EuclidReferences say that the Presidential Emergency Board refused to include working conditions in the negotiations.
What references? you can read the actual PEB document and their refusal to address those concerns. No need for references.
EuclidMy general conclusion is that a concentration on working conditions negotiation would result in very little improvement in working conditions, and far less improvement than what has been accomplished in current wage negotiations.
That makes zero sense.
EuclidFortunately, this process seems to have moved away from that danger.
Yeah, a real danger improving working conditions. Dodged that bullet.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
n012944 jeffhergert n012944 Backshop If the railroads offered higher wages now, they would want more onerous work rules in return. Railroads are currently pushing the unions to accept the PEB's 24% raise without any work rules changes. I've heard the negotiations with SMART-TD and BLE&T are not looking good. The railroads still are wanting less than the PEB recommended. I've not heard details, but I'm guessing it's over the Healthcare portion. Labor came out ahead compared to what the railroads wanted. Jeff The ATDA has just reached an agreement that pretty much matches the PEB. I am hearing that it won't pass, do to the lack of a "me too" clause. We will see. https://www.atda.org/atda-reaches-tentative-national-agreement/
Being retired I don't have a vote. I do recall CSX trying to foist a 'Profit Sharing Plan' in place to negotiated increases in a prior contract. As I recall the official vote held by the NLRB was 374-0 against Profit Sharing.
ATDA does submit agreements to the membership for ratification.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Overmod But if the ATDA were to ratify, but 'everybody else' votes to strike, would the dispatchers not stand in solidarity when management starts trying to operate trains?
I would hope so.
Murphy Siding Ulrich Murphy Siding I'm hesitant to jump into a thread that will probably run off the tracks as being not really about railroading. <There, I put in my effort to make it somewhat railroad oriented. euclid wants to make it all about money. That's too simple-minded. In more realistic terms, it's more like bang for the buck. Your job has to have a balance between what you get paid, how much you like or dislike the job, and whether you can pay the mortgage and have a life. It's a moving target, as so many factors affect it. Like it or not, I am middle management. I have about 17-18 guys working for me. On average, most of us have worked there between 10 and 15 years. (33 for me, and I'm about 6th in time companywide). My newest guy has been there a month. I haven't had an overly amount of turnover, but the rate is increasing. In the last 12 monts, I've had 4 people move on. All 4 had worked there less than a year. Two left for personal reasons (their personal lives were a mess and they thought being a mess at a different job would somehow be different?) One left for better pay, but more importantly, better opportunities to advance. The most recent one left to develop his part-time business into his full-time dream job. None of the 4 left simply because the employer down the road is paying more. There's always that balance. What works for my operation is to treat employees like humans and not like replaceable cogs in a machine. Treat your employees well and they will treat the company well. Treat them like dirt, and you get what you deserve. Right now, I have 18 guys that work together as a team. We're all rowing in the same direction and we all know where we're going, and why. And, they all get along with each other! Seven miles away, our sister company has the exact same operation, with a different outlook and different results. Our upper managment must be similar to that of a railroad, or any other big corporation. It's all about money and money is all about numbers- people be damned, you're getting in the way of additional profits. A lot of years back, I worked for a big corporation. When they sent any paperwork to employees, it was always sent to your home address. They didn't put your name on it. Mine were addressed to Big Corporation employee #43-04. I always felt like that was their way of reminding me that I was a replaceable part in a machine. This month, we set a new all-time sales record. Next week, I'm ordering pizzas for the crew and telling them thanks for their hard work. I won't hear a peep from upper management about the sales record, but I will hear about why I spent precious company money on pizza. I bet the railroads don't buy pizza for their employees or tell them thank you for their hard work. They probably should. Pay is important, but it's not the only thing that keeps people at a specific job. I guess a thank you and a pizza works for some. In my days working for various carriers large and small we had "appreciation days" and other "feel good" events, but they came across as contrived and insincere. But if it works for some people then I suppose they have some value. Personally I never needed thank you gestures, sincere or otherwise, pizzas or fake appreciation events. I did my job..they paid me..The End. We also have a commision system, so that makes the pay more in line with the work produced. It never hurts to thank people for their work.
We also have a commision system, so that makes the pay more in line with the work produced. It never hurts to thank people for their work.
For sure, so long as its sincere. I think that's the key..if it comes across as "the manual says I should thank you" it won't work. Hmm..maybe dancing girls and live music instead of a pizza..
n012944 Overmod But if the ATDA were to ratify, but 'everybody else' votes to strike, would the dispatchers not stand in solidarity when management starts trying to operate trains? I would hope so.
ATDA members won't cross picket lines. If there are no picket lines at their work location they cannot refuse to do their jobs if their craft has signed a contract.
PJS1Pay is pretty far down the scale of job values when it meets most employees needs. However, if they believe they are not being compensated fairly, it shoots to the top of the need’s hierarchy.
It's funny when we get the new guys that are all about "making money". They go on and on about they want to work, work, work, make the most money as quick as possible.
And then after a month or 2 marked up they're quitting because they get written up for marking off on multiple weekends or holidays, and complain when they get called to work off the board.
I'm sure Jeff or 70dude has seen those types as well.
So I'll say again, since I don't think I said it in this repeat of a thread topic: higher wages will attract people but working conditions will make them stay.
zugmann It's funny when we get the new guys that are all about "making money". They go on and on about they want to work, work, work, make the most money as quick as possible. And then after a month or 2 marked up they're quitting because they get written up for marking off on multiple weekends or holidays, and complain when they get called to work off the board. So I'll say again,... higher wages will attract people but working conditions will make them stay.
So I'll say again,... higher wages will attract people but working conditions will make them stay.
EuclidIf new hires are quitting because they can’t get weekends off; and if better working conditions will make them stay, will the new working conditions give everyone weekends off?
While weekends off are nice, this is not a new problem, or one limited to the railroad industry.
Any business that needs to run 24/7 has a similar issue. I worked in those circumstances for a number of years - rotating shifts, weekends, holidays, etc. But we normally had a couple of days off in a row - our 'weekend.' And it was predictable. Between working the same shift for several weeks in a row and fairly consistant days off, I could plan something a month out without too much trouble.
The issue with the railroads, based on what I've read here, is the unpredictability of the work. Penalties for taking time off certainly don't help any.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68The issue with the railroads, based on what I've read here, is the unpredictability of the work. Penalties for taking time off certainly don't help any.
There used to be a lot more jobs, so you had something to hold much faster. But regualr jobs are replaced with pools/lists, and you used to be able to take time off easier when you did work pools/lists, but they don't let you do that as easy anymore. I doubt I would stay if I was a new guy today.
Euclid zugmann It's funny when we get the new guys that are all about "making money". They go on and on about they want to work, work, work, make the most money as quick as possible. And then after a month or 2 marked up they're quitting because they get written up for marking off on multiple weekends or holidays, and complain when they get called to work off the board. So I'll say again,... higher wages will attract people but working conditions will make them stay. If new hires are quitting because they can’t get weekends off; and if better working conditions will make them stay, will the new working conditions give everyone weekends off?
Ha ha.. No. I've been employed in the transportation industry since 1982, and working long irregular hours including weekends is part of the gig.
zugmann It's funny when we get the new guys that are all about "making money". They go on and on about they want to work, work, work, make the most money as quick as possible. And then after a month or 2 marked up they're quitting because they get written up for marking off on multiple weekends or holidays, and complain when they get called to work off the board.
Yep. And they'll also complain about how they can't afford the new truck and toys they just bought financed.....
But there are also a lot of people who don't have a problem with working nights or weekends, so long as they do eventually get time off in one form or another.
In general, people don't have a problem with working, but we do have a problem with doing nothing but working. And the railroad solution to this problem is (like usual) to blame the employees for being lazy, or simply pretend that there isn't a problem.
We have pizza/family days every now and then too, but everyone knows that they are not representative of management's true attitude toward us. One small annual event doesn't quite make up for the other 364 days of disrespect.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Most of us talk about work and think about work even when we're not working..hey..look at what we're doing right now. I'm on vacation in Italy, but I'm still working as much as my wife will tolerate.
Murphy Siding Euclid- On a thread a little while back, you mentioned that you did contract excavating work, or something similar (?) How are you compensating your employees so that their real wages are keeping up with inflation?
Euclid- On a thread a little while back, you mentioned that you did contract excavating work, or something similar (?) How are you compensating your employees so that their real wages are keeping up with inflation?
Raising prices in an inflationary environment isn't all that difficult..everyone has heard of inflation, and asking for a raise to compensate is justifiable and doesn't require a hard sell.
Euclid Murphy Siding Euclid- On a thread a little while back, you mentioned that you did contract excavating work, or something similar (?) How are you compensating your employees so that their real wages are keeping up with inflation? It is possible for inflation to get so bad that an employer cannot raise wages enough to keep up with inflation. I have never had employees. If I had some now during this inflation, and believed they would quit without a raise to compensate for inflation, I would raise their pay within limits. Bear in mind that the inflation would also force me to raise the price of service to compensate for the falling value of money. This happens to all businesses. But raising your price always reduces demand for your product. Many, if not most businesses simply raise their prices to compensate for the rising costs resulting from falling value of money. Many probably feel they are entirely justified in raising their prices, and owe their customers no apology. They can raise their prices and not lose a penny to inflation. BUT—they can lose sales and/or lose customers. I am sure that some merchants are completely overlooking that fact. So, overall, it may be wiser for a merchant to absorb some of the inflation increase coming from their suppliers in order to retain customers. That may be more cost effective than passing all the inflation cost to the end user. Thus, my intention is to not raise customer prices for services to compensate for my rising costs caused by inflation. If I had employees, I would explain that to them and ask them for a similar sacrifice.
jeffhergertI say the only reason they DO get some to hire out is the current wages. They are above almost all other blue collar jobs.
You would be surprised on that topic. My Nephew works for bathfitter installing shower tub overlays and earns $125-130,000 a year without any overtime or away from home. In my personal opinion Conductor and Engineers pay is ridiculously low given the exposure to the elements as well as the risk to life and limb. One reason I never persued a railroad career was the heavy handed rules based work atmosphere. Too much like the Military with hassle but not enough like it in the compensation area.
Murphy SidingLong, windy responses like this accentuate my belief that you have no idea how business works.
He lost me a long time ago. I get compensated for inflation as do most white collar folks do eventually, it just lags by a year or two.
Murphy SidingOn a thread a little while back, you mentioned that you did contract excavating work, or something similar (?) How are you compensating your employees so that their real wages are keeping up with inflation?
Murphy Siding Euclid Murphy Siding Euclid- On a thread a little while back, you mentioned that you did contract excavating work, or something similar (?) How are you compensating your employees so that their real wages are keeping up with inflation? It is possible for inflation to get so bad that an employer cannot raise wages enough to keep up with inflation. I have never had employees. If I had some now during this inflation, and believed they would quit without a raise to compensate for inflation, I would raise their pay within limits. Bear in mind that the inflation would also force me to raise the price of service to compensate for the falling value of money. This happens to all businesses. But raising your price always reduces demand for your product. Many, if not most businesses simply raise their prices to compensate for the rising costs resulting from falling value of money. Many probably feel they are entirely justified in raising their prices, and owe their customers no apology. They can raise their prices and not lose a penny to inflation. BUT—they can lose sales and/or lose customers. I am sure that some merchants are completely overlooking that fact. So, overall, it may be wiser for a merchant to absorb some of the inflation increase coming from their suppliers in order to retain customers. That may be more cost effective than passing all the inflation cost to the end user. Thus, my intention is to not raise customer prices for services to compensate for my rising costs caused by inflation. If I had employees, I would explain that to them and ask them for a similar sacrifice. Long, windy responses like this accentuate my belief that you have no idea how business works.
Long, windy responses like this accentuate my belief that you have no idea how business works.
CMStPnPHe lost me a long time ago.
Many years and a few user names ago?
I'm no executive, CEO, HR rep, or post hole digger, but I thought that is why we are supposed to get new contracts every 5 years. To re-negotiate compensation to in part help keep up with inflation.
zugmann CMStPnP He lost me a long time ago. Many years and a few user names ago? I'm no executive, CEO, HR rep, or post hole digger, but I thought that is why we are supposed to get new contracts every 5 years. To re-negotiate compensation to in part help keep up with inflation.
CMStPnP He lost me a long time ago.
Off with their heads! The beatings will continue until morale improves.
zugmann I thought that is why we are supposed to get new contracts every 5 years. To re-negotiate compensation to in part help keep up with inflation.
CMStPnPToo much like the Military with hassle...
But the military doesn't recruit you then spend the rest of your career trying to fire you...
And outside of combat, most GI's work a regular schedule.
EuclidSince you asked me how I am compensating my employees so that their wages are keeping up with inflation, let me ask you...
In other words, he doesn't have an answer...
tree68 Euclid Since you asked me how I am compensating my employees so that their wages are keeping up with inflation, let me ask you... In other words, he doesn't have an answer...
Euclid Since you asked me how I am compensating my employees so that their wages are keeping up with inflation, let me ask you...
I don't know why you edited my quote to eliminate the point it was making. The edited quote of me is meaningless and then you insert your own untrue meaning into the quote.
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