tree68 NKP guy In the event of a strike, would Amtrak trains still operate?
NKP guy In the event of a strike, would Amtrak trains still operate?
In the event of a strike, would Amtrak trains still operate?
Is Amtrak included in the national Class One joint negotiations? I thought not, in which cas the Corridor only could continue to operate. My understanding is that their relations with their operating employees is separate. Correct ne if necessary.
Strike looms larger.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-10/us-freight-railroads-to-cut-services-as-union-talks-fail-report?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=news_tab&leadSource=uverify%20wall
daveklepper Is Amtrak included in the national Class One joint negotiations? I thought not, in which cas the Corridor only could continue to operate. My understanding is that their relations with their operating employees is separate. Correct ne if necessary.
Amtrak is not a member of the NCCC..
BaltACD Amtrak does not employ enough operating officials to man their trains (they barely have enough craft personnel to man them.)
Are the dispatchers part of a bargaining unit?
Irrespective of whether they are members of a bargaining unit, if they agreed to work during a work stopage, could Amtrak run its long-distance and corridor trains?
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
PJS1 BaltACD Amtrak does not employ enough operating officials to man their trains (they barely have enough craft personnel to man them.) Are the dispatchers part of a bargaining unit? Irrespective of whether they are members of a bargaining unit, if they agreed to work during a work stopage, could Amtrak run its long-distance and corridor trains?
I believe CSX, NS & BNSF are represented by the ATDA. UP Dispatchers are non-contract company 'officials'. I don't recall about CN & CP(KCS).
If the Dispatch centers get picketed by striking employees from other crafts, the ATDA Dispatchers will honor the picket lines.
On CSX prior to EHH and PSR, many of the non-contract divisional operating supervision had moved to their non-contract positions by being promoted from the ranks of Dispatchers. What that level of supervision looks like since PSR cleaned house, I have no idea.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Not many of them. Amtrak has already started canceling trains so as not to strand passengers and the workforce somewhere.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/12/business/amtrak-suspends-long-haul-freight-rail-strike/index.html
An "expensive model collector"
PJS1Irrespective of whether they are members of a bargaining unit, if they agreed to work during a work stopage, could Amtrak run its long-distance and corridor trains?
Even if managers could dispatch the trains - It's bold to assume the mainlines aren't going to be blocked by stopped trains.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
All this business about various unions saying they have reached agreements to be voted on reminds me of the procedure for controversial bills in Congress. Everyone who can, takes the position that makes them look most popular... knowing that someone will be the 'goat' that takes the unpleasant steps or whatever. (Then they go back to their constituents and say "Hey! We tried reason, but it got voted down by others..."
You see the opposite, too, where slowly but surely the vote approaches the necessary majority, but isn't quite there yet. Everyone sits on the fence until someone makes the last unpleasant vote -- then like a string of firecrackers everyone else makes the most politically advantageous call.
I think the two unions that are 'holding out' actually represent how the strike call will go. I don't think the railroads will negotiate on the living stuff. I think it's going to go to Congress -- perhaps as Truman did, we'll see government people try to run things -- and somehow I predict that the most important of the living conditions get thrown under the bus as 'unimportant' in getting trains running again.
I really hope I'm wrong.
Meanwhile here in DC, the situation is becoming news for the general public. At the market today I scanned the front pages of NYT, WSJ and the Washington Post. Only the Post reported on the potential crisis and it's national and local implications on page 1. Yesterday NBC4 said VRE (CSX and NS) could shut down entirely but MARC would not be affected. Seems to me MARC DC to Martinsburg and Baltimore Camden station (both CSX) would be, whereas Penn Line DC to Perryville (Amtrak NEC) wouldn't.
Edit: today they're saying the two CSX MARC lines would shut down.
Looks like the full scope of a strike's impact on commerce and the economy is now hitting the Fed hard.
Rick
rixflix aka Captain Video. Blessed be Jean Shepherd and all His works!!! Hooray for 1939, the all time movie year!!! I took that ride on the Reading but my Baby caught the Katy and left me a mule to ride.
Overmod All this business about various unions saying they have reached agreements to be voted on reminds me of the procedure for controversial bills in Congress. Everyone who can, takes the position that makes them look most popular... knowing that someone will be the 'goat' that takes the unpleasant steps or whatever. (Then they go back to their constituents and say "Hey! We tried reason, but it got voted down by others..." You see the opposite, too, where slowly but surely the vote approaches the necessary majority, but isn't quite there yet. Everyone sits on the fence until someone makes the last unpleasant vote -- then like a string of firecrackers everyone else makes the most politically advantageous call. I think the two unions that are 'holding out' actually represent how the strike call will go. I don't think the railroads will negotiate on the living stuff. I think it's going to go to Congress -- perhaps as Truman did, we'll see government people try to run things -- and somehow I predict that the most important of the living conditions get thrown under the bus as 'unimportant' in getting trains running again. I really hope I'm wrong.
Totally agree. And like you, I hope it doesn't go this way. If BNSF keeps its attendwnc policy, I suspect there will be a revolt. The old expression about you can lead the horse to water but you can't make it drink. They can't fire all who refuse to answer the call.
The Brotherhood of Railway Signalmen is also holding out.
Amtrak, while not part of the NCCC, does have unionized employees. They would not cross a picket line.
Congress is getting nervous. At least one resolution has been made to force the PEB recommendations.
https://rollcall.com/2022/09/12/lawmakers-to-delve-into-rail-and-farm-freight-as-strike-looms/
Jeff
Electroliner 1935 Overmod All this business about various unions saying they have reached agreements to be voted on reminds me of the procedure for controversial bills in Congress. Everyone who can, takes the position that makes them look most popular... knowing that someone will be the 'goat' that takes the unpleasant steps or whatever. (Then they go back to their constituents and say "Hey! We tried reason, but it got voted down by others..." You see the opposite, too, where slowly but surely the vote approaches the necessary majority, but isn't quite there yet. Everyone sits on the fence until someone makes the last unpleasant vote -- then like a string of firecrackers everyone else makes the most politically advantageous call. I think the two unions that are 'holding out' actually represent how the strike call will go. I don't think the railroads will negotiate on the living stuff. I think it's going to go to Congress -- perhaps as Truman did, we'll see government people try to run things -- and somehow I predict that the most important of the living conditions get thrown under the bus as 'unimportant' in getting trains running again. I really hope I'm wrong. Totally agree. And like you, I hope it doesn't go this way. If BNSF keeps its attendwnc policy, I suspect there will be a revolt. The old expression about you can lead the horse to water but you can't make it drink. They can't fire all who refuse to answer the call.
Exactly!! Much of this strikes me [sorry!] as political theatrics.
My carrier just got notified that as of today no further pick ups or deliveries of anything until further notice nationwide as some of the stuff we ship or deliver is considered hazmat under the railroads and they do not want that sitting unsecured on the rails. So they are refusing to ship it or take even empties in. Good thing we have enough resins and other chemicals to last us at least 2 months stockpiled. However if the railroads due go on strike this would be a death bell for this economy if it lasts longer than a week. Why the OTR industry will try to pick up the slack in terms of tonnage but we can not come up with enough trucks to carry the sheer amount of weight the railroads move on a daily basis.
The machinists rejected their contract proposal.
IAM District 19 Members Vote to Reject Freight Rail Agreement - IAMAW (goiam.org)
The Biden Admiration cannot stand a strike at this time because of the damage it would to them just ahead of the Midterms. The Unions know this, and so they are in an exceptionally powerful position to hold out for their demands.
Considering this unique situation, I expect the unions will strike. If they do, the strike must be ended immediately to prevent the effect on the Midterms. There is no time for Congress to develop a settlement proposal even if they do have the authority to impose it onto both sides.
This leaves the option of simply imposing the PEB recommendations as the immediate solution. But this will not give the unions any improvement in the working conditions.
I assume there might be another possibility in which new contract is created in a very short time and then imposed by the government. It might be created in a day or two, and give a further concession to the demands of labor.
Then if labor does not accept any new offer, and refuses to return to work as though they were still on strike, they would be resisting a governmental demand to end the strike and return to work.
What happens then? Would all the hold out employees be terminated from their employment? If the answer is yes, would that be regardless of the number of employees refusing to return to work?
Does anyone here believe railroad employee morale is worse now than in the 1970s, when some railroads were bankrupt?
cbalduccDoes anyone here believe railroad employee morale is worse now than in the 1970s, when some railroads were bankrupt?
But they were bankrupt. They at least had that as an excuse.
I believe employees are under a lot more personal pressure from the carriers than what existed in the 1970's. Employees are all being expected to perform the duties that in past times were being performed by up to 5 additional employees and they are also being held to performing those duties at a higher standard than was done in the 1970's.
Bankruptcy only affected the employees when the axe fell and eliminated their employment. The 'art' of micromanaging from afar didn't exist in the 1970's as there weren't computer networks to permit it.
Metra's Union Pacific lines will stop running commuter trains shortly after 9 PM Thursday night. My son, who is Metra-dependant and doesn't own a car, just asked if the parallel EL will still run. I answered, sure, but you won't be able to get on! Uber? Sure, if you can pay $1,000 per ride (or whatever it will be). Fun surprise coming to many starting tomorrow. I wouldn't be surprised if it went on for awhile given the political constraints.
As a non-rail guy myself who is salaried, my sympathies are with these unions, especially on the days-off issue. Ask me how I feel again in a few weeks if the strike goes on for awhile and I'm burning furniture to heat my house! (But you won't be able to ask because, well, no power, no Internet.)
So, if the impasse is primariy a result of management's unwillingness to concede "quality of life" issues ....is it fair to say that the quality of life issues are the product of Wall street's pressure for ever improving metrics?
I just say this because if ultimately there ends up being a strike, I suspect the spin will attribute the blame to employee expectations being unrealistic...and personally I don't believe that to be the case.
Convicted Oneis it fair to say that the quality of life issues are the product of Wall street's pressure for ever improving metrics? I just say this because if ultimately there ends up being a strike, I suspect the spin will attribute the blame to employee expectations being unrealistic...
Since the Administration claims to be a big friend to the unions, it will take a lot of spin to make them a big friend of Wall street at the same time. This seems like a good time for labor to hold out for their demands.
Convicted OneSo, if the impasse is primariy a result of management's unwillingness to concede "quality of life" issues ....is it fair to say that the quality of life issues are the product of Wall street's pressure for ever improving metrics? I just say this because if ultimately there ends up being a strike, I suspect the spin will attribute the blame to employee expectations being unrealistic...and personally I don't believe that to be the case.
If only the Ops could have the bean counters and pencil pushers experience the quality of life that the Ops have, especially those on Wall Street that wouldn't recognize a train if it rain over them.
[quote user="BaltACD"]
cbalducc Does anyone here believe railroad employee morale is worse now than in the 1970s, when some railroads were bankrupt?
Of course morale is worse, as described above. Employees hadn't had the morale drummed out of them by constant, contradictory effusiveness about a "safe work envrionment" while being exhausted and by supervisors without first-hand experience.
The situation in the 70s was to a large extent a Northeastern matter - later to expand as the affects of ICC regulation took their inexorable toll. As one who worked for PC for most if its life, morale was generally pretty good for the first few years until deferred maintenance and uncertainty about payday took their toll - neither of which prevail at present. But there was still an "espirit de corps" that was ingrained and ran strong; and this is what has been drummed out of the atmosphere over the past few decades with little appreciation as to its result, being an unquantifiable entity.
Railroaders, as with others whose work is more or less 24/7, have long accepted the inherent inconveniences of the industry's nature. The carriers seems to have embarked upon an aggressive program of assaulting the dedication that drives this acceptance - part pay, part pride in one's occupation, part self-respect. I hope the pay issue doesn't cloud the quality of life issue that seems to be and is largely a rightful part of this dilemma.
EuclidSince the Administration claims to be a big friend to the unions, it will take a lot of spin to make them a big friend of Wall street at the same time. This seems like a good time for labor to hold out for th
I really haven't gotten the feeling that the "Administration" have been the ones whittling away at comfort factors within the industry. While it's true they will likely pay a price in popularity at the polls if a strike is not avoided, I believe that to be more or less a symptom of the greater ill.
I somehow got the feeling that most of the QOL issues are a result of pressure to enhance efficiencies in service to equity. (appeasing Wall street demands)
Am I wrong about that? Much of the grumbling I've read around here the past several years seems to suggest that tightening the screws to enhance share holder value, has left a bad taste in the mouths of many.
Is management unwilling to make concessions in the QOL areas because doing so would constitute a reversal on what they likely regard to be hard fought "progress"? ....... Is what I'm getting at.
Convicted OneIs management unwilling to make concessions in the QOL areas because doing so would constiture a reversal on what they likely regard to be hard fought "progress"? ....... Is what I'm getting at.
I understand your point. I am just saying that the Administraition is not going to want to blame Wall St., but they are also not going to want to blame the unions and their members. If anything, I would expect the Administration to not side with Wall St. or the railroads, although the PEB seems to have sided with the railroads.
Mainly, the Administration is not going to want a strike. But I expect a strike to happen. Regarding QOL, what would be the ideal solution that would satisfy the unions and their members? How would that solution be implemented? How do they give employees more time off when they need everyone working?
Convicted One Euclid Since the Administration claims to be a big friend to the unions, it will take a lot of spin to make them a big friend of Wall street at the same time. This seems like a good time for labor to hold out for th I really haven't gotten the feeling that the "Administration" have been the ones whittling away at comfort factors within the industry. While it's true they will likely pay a price in popularity at the polls if a strike is not avoided, I believe that to be more or less a symptom of the greater ill. I somehow got the feeling that most of the QOL issues are a result of pressure to enhance efficiencies in service to equity. (appeasing Wall street demands) Am I wrong about that? Much of the grumbling I've read around here the past several years seems to suggest that tightening the screws to enhance share holder value, has left a bad taste in the mouths of many. Is management unwilling to make concessions in the QOL areas because doing so would constitute a reversal on what they likely regard to be hard fought "progress"? ....... Is what I'm getting at.
Euclid Since the Administration claims to be a big friend to the unions, it will take a lot of spin to make them a big friend of Wall street at the same time. This seems like a good time for labor to hold out for th
Over the past years management has been the horse trainer that has been training his horse to perform without drinking water. Management is then surprised when the horse drops dead from dehydration.
EuclidRegarding QOL, what would be the ideal solution that would satisfy the unions and their members? How would that solution be implemented? How do they give employees more time off when they need everyone working?
I really don't know, for sure. It would be interesting to hear Zug and Jeff state what they see as a desirable compromise.
Adding enough staff to provide a little flexibility in scheduling seems like a winner to me. But that's just my "outside looking in" perspective.
SFbrkmn I have let my views & concerns, to the folks that need to know, be known. This is my 5th contract which has turned into the most ugly in in 24 yrs on the ballast. While very concerned, at the sametime, Im not spending a great amount of time allowing to become upset as I will wait for a direct propsal pesented to memebership for review and a vote. This has become a learning process. My neighbor is the BLET LC for UP @ Wichita and explained about their health plans, which is entirely different from what we work under on the orange & green. I thought all this was universal, but that it is not. Each carrier has their own plan, and some providers (like mine) seem to be better than others (UP). Word is that our out of pocket monthly will increase only $60.00 through the contract. That was told to me by a BLET engr who attended a recent national meeting in New Orleans. I'm nit fom Missouri, but you have to show me and when I see it in writing proposal, then I'll take thought into it. Whenever this is finaled and completed and all receieve back wages, odds are strong their will be another round of nation walking off the property. Many indistries have acught up w/the rail industry on wages. For ones working a rd xtra bd or high mileage pool turn, that is where $$$ is at but for other assignments, that is the exception. Righ here in Wichita at the aircraft plants, one can make more per day than working a yd or basic local assignmenton the rails. Sam
I have let my views & concerns, to the folks that need to know, be known. This is my 5th contract which has turned into the most ugly in in 24 yrs on the ballast. While very concerned, at the sametime, Im not spending a great amount of time allowing to become upset as I will wait for a direct propsal pesented to memebership for review and a vote. This has become a learning process. My neighbor is the BLET LC for UP @ Wichita and explained about their health plans, which is entirely different from what we work under on the orange & green. I thought all this was universal, but that it is not. Each carrier has their own plan, and some providers (like mine) seem to be better than others (UP). Word is that our out of pocket monthly will increase only $60.00 through the contract. That was told to me by a BLET engr who attended a recent national meeting in New Orleans. I'm nit fom Missouri, but you have to show me and when I see it in writing proposal, then I'll take thought into it.
Whenever this is finaled and completed and all receieve back wages, odds are strong their will be another round of nation walking off the property. Many indistries have acught up w/the rail industry on wages. For ones working a rd xtra bd or high mileage pool turn, that is where $$$ is at but for other assignments, that is the exception. Righ here in Wichita at the aircraft plants, one can make more per day than working a yd or basic local assignmenton the rails.
Sam
The strike, if called as soon as it's allowed, would happen at 1201am Eastern time. That's 1101pm 09/15 Central time, 1001pm 09/15 Mountain time, and 901pm 09/15 Pacific time.
From some of the news reports from various sources, Biden is not happy with either side, nor are the Democrats (especially those up for reelection) for being put in the position of between a rock and a hard place. The Senate measure (which failed today) was put up by Republicans (who blame labor) because they see it as a chance to blame Democrats if the strike happens and the economy becomes worse. (I don't want to make this political, but this has become political.)
IMO, this first Senate measure being turned down is symbolic. They are still negotiating, but I'm not hopeful. Congress really can't let it last more than a few days, no matter which side they support.
I don't see labor has having any more clout in congress. To get something passed, they will have to be bipartisan and that means those who might be friendlier to labor won't be able to rewrite a new contract in favor of labor because they will need to get the other side to agree. I expect that the PEB recommendations will ultimately be imposed, with those items (which seem to be the ones holding up an agreement) that the PEB didn't address sent for further negotiation and then binding arbitration. Binding arbitration usually favors the carriers. Which is probably why the carriers don't seem to want to budge on those issues.
Barring any last minute breakthroughs, between the carriers and management or in congress, I expect a strike will happen in about 23 hours.
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