Attn: greyhounds. Several years ago there was a discussion: "Why did the railroads stop cattle trains?"
You noted that you had met a gentleman named William Gentleman. He is a prominent figure in a history I'm writing, and you are the first person I've found who actually met him.
I'd like to talk with you. What is the best way we can get together?
Thank you
I'll allow greyhounds to answer your question.
The advent of trucks with their versality and capacity eliminated the need for railroads to haul livestock.
Plus livestock by law had to be taken out of the car, rested in pens, fed and watered after a certain number of hours. Which increases shipment time, unlike trucks which took less time to ship cows to the stock yards and meat packers.
Last load was Pigs on Conrail Autoracks heading to Oak Island Yard in New Jersey to be turned into Nathans Hot Dogs in the early to late 1990s. Someone at the Conrail Historical Soceity has info on this
Don't forget many years ago meat packers were more consolidated in the large cities, like Chicago, Omaha, and Kansas City. Eventually much of the meat production moved closer to where the livestock was produced. Livestock didn't need to move as far, which just gave trucks more advantage.
Livestock had to be unloaded for feeding, watering and rest every 28 hours. A shipper could sign a release to increase the time to 36 hours.
Jeff
The project I've been working on for the past three years is about an experimental cattle car. It was an 85-foot Ortner Steer Palace modified with feed and water facilities to allow cattle to eat and drink while the train was under way. The objective was to see how cattle fared on long-distance rail trips.
Most of the experiments were done by researchers at Texas A&M. The government (ICC or USDA, forgot which) approved the experiments as meeting the feed-water-rest requirements of the 28-hour law.
Between 1977 and 1984 the car made 10 trips. The first was a trial run on the Union Pacific between Idaho and Nebraska. The rest terminated in Amarillo from sources in Kentucky, Tennessee, Alabama and Florida. Other than UP, no Western railroad provided transportation.
Participating Eastern roads included the Louisville & Nashville, Norfolk Southern, and Seaboard Coast Lines. Burlington Northern and possibly the Rock Island handled the car west of the Mississippi. The last trip in 1984 was a move from Iowa to Pennsylvania via the Miwaukee Road and Conrai.
Most of the information I have comes from agriculture scientific journals, and unfortunately the authors were not railfans. Their reports documented the condition of the cattle, not the rail line they were on. I've inquired of archives holding corporate records, and historical societies, but so far the pickings have been slim.
That's a little surprising. In at least 3 trials in 1982, NS provided the business car Royal Arch to house scientists and their instruments. The car was coupled between the Ortner car and a flat car with a highway trailer modified with food and water. Has to be one of the oddest consists to ride the rails. Surely some railfan took note.
Effective Refrigeration.
Before it, livestock had to be LIVE arriving the slaughter and distribution area, otherwise it would spoil and rot before it could be sold and used.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I don't see why anyone would waste time arranging to ship cattle on the hoof when the same amount of money applied to handle strategic packaged meat products could be far more lucrative and far less risky.
We've had whole threads on how to go about doing that.
BaltACDEffective Refrigeration.
That's what killed the East India spice trade (and the clippers that carried it).
Based on what I've read, a prime use of the spices was to cover the taste of rancid butter. Once the refrigerated boxcar came into being, that need ceased to exist. The butter could be churned in remote areas and shipped to the cities.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
OvermodI don't see why anyone would waste time arranging to ship cattle on the hoof when the same amount of money applied to handle strategic packaged meat products could be far more lucrative and far less risky. We've had whole threads on how to go about doing that.
When you don't have the technology to handle a packaged meat product, you do what you have to do with the product and technology you have.
Refrigeration suitable for shipping butchered meat products didn't exist until well after WW II. My early years as ATTM at Bayview Yard in Baltimore Esskay Meat Packing (Schluderberg Kurdle ) was getting two or three loads of hogs per night in the early 1970. Upon arrival, the cars would be pulled into a track known as 'The Wye' where a water stantion where the Car Dept would 'hose down' the hogs and the Yard Engine crew would go on down the the Esskay plant and deliver the load of hogs and pull the empties from the prior day. By 1975 or thereabouts the movement of hogs stopped.
Does Australia still have livestock trains on some routes?
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Anyone care for a flashback of moving cattle in the old days?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_rHrLHIeyI
Flintlock76Anyone care for a flashback of moving cattle in the old days? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_rHrLHIeyI
FETV (Family Entertainment TV on cable) Broadcasts Rawhide at 2 PM & 3 PM Eastern daily.
I knew that Clint was on that show, but I didn't know about Martin Milner. Also featuring the ever-sinister Dan Duryea. I miss all those Westerns from my childhood and there were so many.
54light15I knew that Clint was on that show, but I didn't know about Martin Milner. Also featuring the ever-sinister Dan Duryea. I miss all those Westerns from my childhood and there were so many.
Many of the Westerns are being shown on cable channels - Charge, METV, FETV and others.
BaltACDFETV (Family Entertainment TV on cable) Broadcasts Rawhide at 2 PM & 3 PM Eastern daily.
Don't I know it! Lady Firestorm's addicted to "Rawhide!" She never saw the show growing up but she's making up for lost time!
On the other hand "Rawhide" was required viewing at my house, Mom was crazy about Westerns!
54light15 I knew that Clint was on that show, but I didn't know about Martin Milner. Also featuring the ever-sinister Dan Duryea. I miss all those Westerns from my childhood and there were so many.
Martin Milner wasn't one of the regulars, he was a guest star along with Dan Duryea on that particular episode.
Oh yeah, the TV Western craze that began in the 50's and didn't begin to fade until the late 60's. "Bonanza" and "Gunsmoke" were the last survivors.
BaltACD Overmod I don't see why anyone would waste time arranging to ship cattle on the hoof when the same amount of money applied to handle strategic packaged meat products could be far more lucrative and far less risky. We've had whole threads on how to go about doing that. When you don't have the technology to handle a packaged meat product, you do what you have to do with the product and technology you have.
Overmod I don't see why anyone would waste time arranging to ship cattle on the hoof when the same amount of money applied to handle strategic packaged meat products could be far more lucrative and far less risky. We've had whole threads on how to go about doing that.
Yes, important to remember that an iced refrigerator car could only get the inside temperature to a few degrees above freezing. It wasn't until the development of mechanical reefers that you had cars that could be cooled to below freezing. Once that technology came along after WW2, meat packing companies could slaughter the cattle locally, and ship the frozen sides of beef to a main processing plant. Before that, you had to ship the live cattle to end plant.
It's the same technology that created the boom in consumer frozen food in the same time. Iceboxes couldn't keep frozen food frozen, it could only keep them cold. Mechanical refrigerators with a freezer allowed the creation of a market for frozen pizzas, TV dinners, etc.
p.s. Since the old Western TV shows came up, it's kinda similar to the question 'why did the big cattle drives of the 1870s end?'. When the UP was completed, it's line was the only line anywhere near the big cattle raising areas - particularly Texas. Ranchers drove their cattle from Texas to Dodge City Kansas so the cattle could then be sent east by rail. Once railroads reached Texas, there was no need for the long cattle drives to the railhead.
SD70Dude Does Australia still have livestock trains on some routes?
chutton01 SD70Dude Does Australia still have livestock trains on some routes? Well, they have livestock trains of a sort...
Well, they have livestock trains of a sort...
Recall several years ago reading an article about a shipment of 100K sheep from Australia to Saudi Arabia that was rejected account excessive mortality of the cargo.
oldmancatAttn: greyhounds. Several years ago there was a discussion: "Why did the railroads stop cattle trains?" You noted that you had met a gentleman named William Gentleman. He is a prominent figure in a history I'm writing, and you are the first person I've found who actually met him. I'd like to talk with you. What is the best way we can get together? Thank you
My email is rabbiteer@sbcglobal.net. Feel free to contact me regarding this subject.
Bill Gentleman actually got the Federal Government to agree to waive the 28 hour rule. This rule required that livestock moving by rail be let out into pens for food and water every 28 hours. An exception was that livestock that would reach their final destination within 36 hours could move on through. This rule did not apply to truck movement of livestock.
The waiver was contingent on: 1) The livestock could move freely about in the railcar, 2) The livestock had access to food and water in the railcar. Neither of these conditions was a significant problem.
Although I am generally loathe to conceed any freight market to trucking, I don't see much opportunity for rail transport of livestock.
I would love to see a return of livestock movement to rails as much as anyone but without the big livestock processing centers you had back in the day (Chicago, Omaha, Kansas City, Dallas/Ft Worth, South St Paul, et al) I just don't know where/how you could do it. I do wonder, however, with the persistent drought conditions that exist in some parts of Texas, if you could move livestock to other locations by rail for grazing (or if it would even make sense to do so).
My big regret is the loss of the Farmer John's traffic (hogs) out to their facility in LA on Union Pacific. I remember being on the UP portion of the Overland Route mainline back in the mid-80s and seeing the livestock cars at various pens in Nebraska and have the pics too. The question I'll always have is why neither CNW and/or ICG couldn't have participated in this traffic over the CBLUF gateway. Keep in mind, there are several counties in Iowa that are well-known for hog production; Delaware County (on the now-CN Iowa Division mainline) is one of them.
Los Angeles Rams GuyI would love to see a return of livestock movement to rails as much as anyone but without the big livestock processing centers you had back in the day (Chicago, Omaha, Kansas City, Dallas/Ft Worth, South St Paul, et al) I just don't know where/how you could do it. I do wonder, however, with the persistent drought conditions that exist in some parts of Texas, if you could move livestock to other locations by rail for grazing (or if it would even make sense to do so). My big regret is the loss of the Farmer John's traffic (hogs) out to their facility in LA on Union Pacific. I remember being on the UP portion of the Overland Route mainline back in the mid-80s and seeing the livestock cars at various pens in Nebraska and have the pics too. The question I'll always have is why neither CNW and/or ICG couldn't have participated in this traffic over the CBLUF gateway. Keep in mind, there are several counties in Iowa that are well-known for hog production; Delaware County (on the now-CN Iowa Division mainline) is one of them.
Some comments about livestock - Note the percieved difference between cattle and hogs.
https://youtu.be/V52_PZB22JM?t=598
Hogs dont have to stink, Free range pigs have no smell what so ever
Los Angeles Rams Guy My big regret is the loss of the Farmer John's traffic (hogs) out to their facility in LA on Union Pacific. I remember being on the UP portion of the Overland Route mainline back in the mid-80s and seeing the livestock cars at various pens in Nebraska and have the pics too. The question I'll always have is why neither CNW and/or ICG couldn't have participated in this traffic over the CBLUF gateway. Keep in mind, there are several counties in Iowa that are well-known for hog production; Delaware County (on the now-CN Iowa Division mainline) is one of them.
Why could the feeding and watering systems used on horse cars not be adapted for use with other stock types?
'Misting' evaporative cooling could keep temperatures down.
OvermodWhy could the feeding and watering systems used on horse cars not be adapted for use with other stock types? 'Misting' evaporative cooling could keep temperatures down.
1) The steer/heifer is born on a place alternatively called a ranch, or a farm, or a “cow-calf operation.”
2) Said steer/heifer is left with its mother for nurturing until it reaches a certain age and size. Several such animals will reach the required age and size at roughly the same time.
3) The human running things will then call a trucker to come pick up the calves. It is common for the trucker to make pick-ups at several ranches/farms/cow-calf operations to fill out the load.
4) The trucker then goes like Hell (time is of the essence) to a feed lot located near the slaughter facility.
5) The feed lot will bring the beef critter to slaughter weight. It will do this by feeding a blend that will produce the marbling in the beef desired by consumers.
6) The beef critter will then get its 2nd truck ride. A short haul from the feed lot to slaughter. A steer will lose one hundred pounds in the first 24 hours of transit. There is no good way to habituate a beef animal to transportation. Transport stresses the animals, and they lose weight as a result. Since people have spent a lot of time, effort and money putting weight on the animal, this weight loss is to be avoided as much as possible. So, they keep the truck ride as short as they can.
Right!!! Historically cattle-cars were common 100 years ago, when nearly all of the USA's meet processing took place in Chicago, and the Chicago Stock Yards occupied a large area, including several railroad freight branches and one dedicated passenger elevated rairoad branch, all gone.
Plenty of opportunity for railroads to handle processed meet to consumer area a long distance from meet pricessing plants. Fish could be a back-haul.
Livestock and meat processing is a far more localized industry than it was years ago. Guelph is a large processing hub for Southern Ontario. I see the same cattle trucks multiple times every day, running the same routes..presumably they're picking up cattle within 100 miles of Guelph and then hauling them to Better Beef Co. for slaughter and processing. Better this way I suppose than having these poor critters in transit for a number of days.
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