It's what I'm hearing as well from my colleagues in the PNW. We feel union leadership let us down as well. They wanted their case to go before the PEB because they thought they'd get a better deal. Not so. The PEB essentially sided with the carriers.
You're essentially correct, track and signal/telecom want the money.
But in places such as the Puget Sound region where the cost of living is higher, we want adjustments for housing, like the military gets. Signal maintainers in Seattle make the same money as those in Nowhere Nebraska make.
And don't say, "Well, move to Nebraska." Doesn't work that way.
dpeltier PEB set a baseline for how much workers can expect in terms of wages and health care benefits and costs. Not surprisingly, PEB did not make recommendations for much else. Really, trying to get into the details of bid processes, layoff and attendance policies, and crew consists. But now that a baseline is set, the individual crafts are free to negotiate tradeoffs where they get quality-of-life improvements for reductions in the proposed wage increases. People here have claimed that wages are not the most important factor, so should we expect to see such deals being cut (or at least offered up by the unions) on the TYE side? (I don't think that MOW and MOE have quite the same concerns with quality-of-life issues, so I doubt they would be interested.) Dan
PEB set a baseline for how much workers can expect in terms of wages and health care benefits and costs. Not surprisingly, PEB did not make recommendations for much else. Really, trying to get into the details of bid processes, layoff and attendance policies, and crew consists. But now that a baseline is set, the individual crafts are free to negotiate tradeoffs where they get quality-of-life improvements for reductions in the proposed wage increases. People here have claimed that wages are not the most important factor, so should we expect to see such deals being cut (or at least offered up by the unions) on the TYE side?
(I don't think that MOW and MOE have quite the same concerns with quality-of-life issues, so I doubt they would be interested.)
Dan
tree68 Methinks part of the problem is summed up in a relatively recent "saw:" A lot of kids get out of college expecting to find a position and end up with a job. Some won't accept that and end up in mom & dad's basement until they do find something they consider suitable. Today's potential worker has a far different expectation of what a "job" is. And that expectation isn't spinning lug nuts on car wheels or moving rolls of paper around paper mills. Industry with smokestacks is a dying breed in this country. Another factor I've heard from two very different sources - those entering the workforce today are from a generation that oftimes has never heard the word "no."
Methinks part of the problem is summed up in a relatively recent "saw:" A lot of kids get out of college expecting to find a position and end up with a job. Some won't accept that and end up in mom & dad's basement until they do find something they consider suitable.
Today's potential worker has a far different expectation of what a "job" is. And that expectation isn't spinning lug nuts on car wheels or moving rolls of paper around paper mills. Industry with smokestacks is a dying breed in this country.
Another factor I've heard from two very different sources - those entering the workforce today are from a generation that oftimes has never heard the word "no."
The younger people coming in now seem to be more self assured and won't put up with alot of stuff my generation did...maybe because they don't have to. My kids both work hard and have summer jobs.. and they both cherry picked the employers they wanted to work for and interviewed them.. Back in the day we job seekers would go hat in hand to The Man, and hopefully someone..anyone.. would see fit to hire us. How times have changed, and in many ways for the better.
Paul Schmidt You're essentially correct, track and signal/telecom want the money. But in places such as the Puget Sound region where the cost of living is higher, we want adjustments for housing, like the military gets. Signal maintainers in Seattle make the same money as those in Nowhere Nebraska make. And don't say, "Well, move to Nebraska." Doesn't work that way.
This is an issue for exempts as well. The Sound Transit construction department is rapidly becoming the Seattle chapter of the BNSF Alumni Club.
IMO ---- What is going to happen is that union members will reject. Strike . Quick congressional action. Then the great job quit version 2 will happen. As to what happens to the quiters ????
Can any judge force them to work?
blue streak 1 IMO ---- What is going to happen is that union members will reject. Strike . Quick congressional action. Then the great job quit version 2 will happen. As to what happens to the quiters ???? Can any judge force them to work?
tree68Another factor I've heard from two very different sources - those entering the workforce today are from a generation that oftimes has never heard the word "no."
You will have no retirement.
You will have no way to afford a nice house.
You will have no way to afford the hobbies/toys/trips you want.
But please spend your entire life working 100 hours a week for global industries, inc.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Paul SchmidtSignal maintainers in Seattle make the same money as those in Nowhere Nebraska make. And don't say, "Well, move to Nebraska." Doesn't work that way.
Hey now! It's not that bad out here -- in fact, it's kind of nice.
Posted from Nowhere, Nebraska.
York1 John
Change 'Management' to 'Shareholders'
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDChange 'Management' to 'Shareholders'
Actually "activist investors" would be more appropriate, methinks.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
tree68 BaltACD Change 'Management' to 'Shareholders' Actually "activist investors" would be more appropriate, methinks.
BaltACD Change 'Management' to 'Shareholders'
In any event the 'trickle' to employees is accurate.
BaltACDIn any event the 'trickle' to employees is accurate.
Yep.
Paul Schmidt It's what I'm hearing as well from my colleagues in the PNW. We feel union leadership let us down as well. They wanted their case to go before the PEB because they thought they'd get a better deal. Not so. The PEB essentially sided with the carriers.
It was going to go to a PEB eventually. The unions forced it sooner rather than later by being asked to be released from mediation when they did. There was no way the carriers were ever going to agree to what the unions wanted, and vice-versa. In negotiations you ask for the moon and stars, but then negotiate until you get something less. That goes for both sides, but that is happeneing less and less in everything these days.
A few of us, while thinking we thought we would've done a little better with a Democratic appointed PEB, aren't too surprised. The PEB recommends more of a wage hike than the carriers want, but did give the carriers a big bone with health care.
The one thing the unions should've handled differently is their request for a couple more holidays. Instead of asking for specific days, they should've asked to add any holiday that the carriers use to penalize employees under their attendence policies.
The next contract is going to be the big thing. I believe section 6 notices can be served at the end of 2024. I fear the anger for the current round will be nothing compared to the next one.
Jeff
SD60MAC9500 From page 32.. "The Carriers maintain that capital investment and risk are the reasons for their profits, not any contributions by labor. The Carriers further argue that there is no correlation historically between high profits and higher compensation, either in the freight rail industry or more generally. To the contrary, one of the Carriers’ experts maintained that the most profitable companies are not those whose compensation is the highest. The Carriers assert that since employees have been fairly and adequately paid for their efforts and do not share in the downside risks if the operations are less profitable, then they have no claim to share in the upside either." IF there wasn't an anymore inflammatory paragraph than this.. I don't know what is.. This alone would make me resign. I wouldn't even wait for a strike..
From page 32..
"The Carriers maintain that capital investment and risk are the reasons for their profits, not any contributions by labor. The Carriers further argue that there is no correlation historically between high profits and higher compensation, either in the freight rail industry or more generally. To the contrary, one of the Carriers’ experts maintained that the most profitable companies are not those whose compensation is the highest. The Carriers assert that since employees have been fairly and adequately paid for their efforts and do not share in the downside risks if the operations are less profitable, then they have no claim to share in the upside either."
IF there wasn't an anymore inflammatory paragraph than this.. I don't know what is..
This alone would make me resign. I wouldn't even wait for a strike..
The labor agreements should contain a provision whereby employees are rewarded for taking initiative..i.e. SD70 Dude's post above. When a conductor circumvents the red tape in favor of going the extra mile for the customer. That should be encouraged and rewarded somehow, perhaps by giving the people on the front lines more autonomy in decision making. Likely for every conductor who goes that extra mile now there are ten who won't do that for fear of being reprimanded. Give the front line people more power to make decisions and reward them generously for it..that's a "win" for everyone.
That would involve admitting that employees can actually make a positive contribution.....
It's not just crews, trainmasters and mid-level managers don't get rewarded for finding additional business either, we are all just supposed to follow the plan (they do get punished when cars that are released don't move according to the plan).
Management doesn't want to deal with customers, it's still the PSR mentality of "here's our service, take it or leave it". They just want us to do whatever the paperwork says, even if it is obviously wrong.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
zugmann tree68 Another factor I've heard from two very different sources - those entering the workforce today are from a generation that oftimes has never heard the word "no." You will have no retirement. You will have no way to afford a nice house. You will have no way to afford the hobbies/toys/trips you want. But please spend your entire life working 100 hours a week for global industries, inc.
tree68 Another factor I've heard from two very different sources - those entering the workforce today are from a generation that oftimes has never heard the word "no."
Hmm, drive into the CSX dispatch parking lot some time. Lots of jacked up trucks, a couple of vipers, a brand new M5, lots of real nice Harleya and an AMG G wagon. Union people that seem to be able to afford their toys just fine. Maybe because they will not take no for and answer and do not expect those toys to be handed to them.
An "expensive model collector"
Unfortunately not everyone can be a CSX dispatcher. Or a CN mainline conductor or engineer, plenty of our guys are also able to obtain those things. But you really have to put in a lot of hours and work as much as possible.
Sometimes I wonder just how much is theirs and how much is the bank's.........
Jobs that pay like ours are disappearing. And precious few have a company pension waiting at the end.
We're all due for a big raise this time around simply to keep up with inflation.
Drive into any Costco parking lot and you'll see the same.. I drive a ten year old van..sometimes get nervous looks when I park next to someone rich and successful like that.
SD70Dude Sometimes I wonder just how much is theirs and how much is the bank's.........
n012944Union people that seem to be able to afford their toys just fine. Maybe because they will not take no for and answer and do not expect those toys to be handed to them.
Ah, yes, your one example of anecdotal evidence must be true for all the younger generations of workers.
I wans't just talking about RRers, but people as a whole.
Yeah, many people have nice cars, trucks and houses. And many people are up to their eyeballs in debt and one paycheck away from bankruptcy.
zugmann n012944 Union people that seem to be able to afford their toys just fine. Maybe because they will not take no for and answer and do not expect those toys to be handed to them. Ah, yes, your one example of anecdotal evidence must be true for all the younger generations of workers. I wans't just talking about RRers, but people as a whole. Yeah, many people have nice cars, trucks and houses. And many people are up to their eyeballs in debt and one paycheck away from bankruptcy.
n012944 Union people that seem to be able to afford their toys just fine. Maybe because they will not take no for and answer and do not expect those toys to be handed to them.
When I left my non-contract 'Official' job I was making minimum credit card payments and sinking financially. Having to go to a contract position, with the availability of Overtime, allowed me to dig myself. At times I full resembled the one paycheck from bankruptcy.
The PEB is flying the middle finger to the crafts.
Ulrich. I drive a ten year old van..sometimes get nervous looks when I park next to someone rich and successful like that.
Hey, I drive an 11-year-old Hyundai and I always park next to expensive cars!
If one of us is going to get broken into or have our cars stolen guess who it's gonna be?
Flintlock76 Ulrich . I drive a ten year old van..sometimes get nervous looks when I park next to someone rich and successful like that. Hey, I drive an 11-year-old Hyundai and I always park next to expensive cars! If one of us is going to get broken into or have our cars stolen guess who it's gonna be?
Ulrich . I drive a ten year old van..sometimes get nervous looks when I park next to someone rich and successful like that.
I love doing that. I already have so many scratches and dents it's gotta make them nervous, and if they scrape me on the way out I won't even notice!
I've spent my whole career living in a town 'renowned' for its high level of petty crime, and I've never had my car broken into (yet, knock on wood). It's like they think I'm one of them.
Expensive luxury cars on the left, us on the right.....
My progression of street cars for the past 38 years. 1984 Dodge Daytona Turbo that was traded in November 1994 with 230K on the Odo for a used 1990 Jeep Cherokee that had 78K on the clock. Got rid of the Jeep in 2003 with 300K on the odometer for 2003 Dodge Durango demonstrator with 6K, got rid of the Durango in 2018 for a used 2017 Ram 1500 pick up with 17K. Ram is still the daily driver with 81K on the clock and put a new battery in it last week.
Ulrich I drive a ten year old van..sometimes get nervous looks when I park next to someone rich and successful like that.
Two Men have $100,000..
One buys a 2022 Z06 Corvette...
The other bought a 7 year old vehicle $8500 cash. Car is free and clear with 75K on the odometer and some issues, but the cars runs reliably and he has garage know how if repairs are needed. He invested the rest.
I wonder who's more successful in this scenario?..
Looks can be deceiving..
So, I guess being able to afford toys is not that big of a deal as one on here makes it out to be...
So I'm guessing all these companies will have no problems filling all their employment needs.
Let the outcomes speak for themselves.
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