Site is legitimate and document is there -- download it as PDF as quick as you can "just in case".
Recommendation summary starts on p.116. Now watch the excitement from the men and the management!
An opinion from one of my coworkers when I was working
In my opinion (the views expressed in this post belong to the post creator and not the organization, its affiliates, or employees) 22% GWI is an insult to what every single one of us was put through in the Pandemic as we watched our very own Brothers & Sisters pass away. Not a single thank you from the carriers or any bonuses to thank us for our hard work. The PEB says they can’t include historic inflation into the GWI as a factor in coming up with the 22% number. I believe we should be up at 28-35% GWI. As for healthcare, it doesn’t look good this go around either and essentially they want to uncap health care. As a gimmick they are offering a $1,000 bonus for each year of service; essentially $5k that will be paid out. Remember that you lose about half of that to taxes. You’d only be getting $2.5k. I’m voting NO on the proposed agreement! Don’t sell out to the corporations! Please feel free to share so everyone has a chance to read the entire recommendation from the PEB 250. Would love to hear what many have to say after they read it as well.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Balt's post seems to follow the general sentiment I am hearing. It sounds like we will walk.
An "expensive model collector"
From page 32..
"The Carriers maintain that capital investment and risk are the reasons for their profits, not any contributions by labor. The Carriers further argue that there is no correlation historically between high profits and higher compensation, either in the freight rail industry or more generally. To the contrary, one of the Carriers’ experts maintained that the most profitable companies are not those whose compensation is the highest. The Carriers assert that since employees have been fairly and adequately paid for their efforts and do not share in the downside risks if the operations are less profitable, then they have no claim to share in the upside either."
IF there wasn't an anymore inflammatory paragraph than this.. I don't know what is..
This alone would make me resign. I wouldn't even wait for a strike..
It's basically true, from a financier's point of view. Railroaders are supposed to be compensated on the basis of the actual time and work they put in, plus fair benefits. They get this as agreed whether the railroad is profitable or not. They could negotiate for a pro-rata share of the profits... as in the bonus system for top-level executives... but anyone wanna bet how far that would fly in practice, even with an amenable Government?
Someone who remembers the 'employee owned' C&NW might comment on how profits, if any, were "shared" above dividends to shareholders.
The percentage of employees who participated in C&NW ownership war relatively low.
I would opine that perhaps the "fairly compensated" factor is dependent on one's point of view.
I'm sure the investors consider anything over the minumum wage to be a waste of their money.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
The floggings will continue until the employees are happy.
BaltACDThe floggings will continue until the employees are happy...
SD60MAC9500 From page 32.. "The Carriers maintain that capital investment and risk are the reasons for their profits, not any contributions by labor. The Carriers further argue that there is no correlation historically between high profits and higher compensation, either in the freight rail industry or more generally. To the contrary, one of the Carriers’ experts maintained that the most profitable companies are not those whose compensation is the highest. The Carriers assert that since employees have been fairly and adequately paid for their efforts and do not share in the downside risks if the operations are less profitable, then they have no claim to share in the upside either."
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy SidingAre these the same folks that can't hire enough employees right now? Don't the employees share in "the downside" by being laid off the minute traffic slows? I wonder how that capital investment and risk are going to make them profits without any contributions by labor?
Is it just me or do I smell "Too big to fail!" coming over the horizon?
Flintlock76 Murphy Siding Are these the same folks that can't hire enough employees right now? Don't the employees share in "the downside" by being laid off the minute traffic slows? I wonder how that capital investment and risk are going to make them profits without any contributions by labor? Is it just me or do I smell "Too big to fail!" coming over the horizon?
Murphy Siding Are these the same folks that can't hire enough employees right now? Don't the employees share in "the downside" by being laid off the minute traffic slows? I wonder how that capital investment and risk are going to make them profits without any contributions by labor?
I am wondering what form that might take. If the companies won't pay enough to attract sufficient labor, and the Country needs the rail transporation, something has to give. What will it be?
Euclid Flintlock76 Murphy Siding Are these the same folks that can't hire enough employees right now? Don't the employees share in "the downside" by being laid off the minute traffic slows? I wonder how that capital investment and risk are going to make them profits without any contributions by labor? Is it just me or do I smell "Too big to fail!" coming over the horizon? I am wondering what form that might take. If the companies won't pay enough to attract sufficient labor, and the Country needs the rail transporation, something has to give. What will it be?
Extended use of automation, whether the automation actually works or not. It just has to be good enough. Railroads aren't the only ones looking at replacing people with machines. Almost all say it's because they can't hire enough people to fill their needs. That in the long run it might save them money on employee costs is just an unintentional benefit.
There are other ways, too. Like getting more work out of those left. There is of course, a wall that you eventually come up against. But there's actually two walls. One is concrete and finite, the one where you have X number of people and they can actually work only so much. The other is more artificial and some may be more like hurdles. I'm thinking of things like the off days on regular assignments, paid personal and vacation days or weeks. Also things that would require changes in law, like repealing or amending working limits provided by Hours of Service/RSIA laws. Repealing or amending the Family Medical Leave Act. (Even before the recent harsh attendence policy changes many employees were getting FMLA. With the changes it's use as increased. You couldn't be denied being layed off and it didn't, and doesn't, affect the attendence policies. Managers currently encourage employees to get it for qualifying things that require taking time off on a quasi-schedule. I believe they really want to build a case that it's abused too much and needs to be repealed or amended to not cover railroad employees.)
I would like to think that some of these things won't, even can't happen. But I believe the current age of the employee or potential employee having the upper hand is transitory. Eventually employers will again have the advantage.
Jeff
EuclidI am wondering what form that might take. If the companies won't pay enough to attract sufficient labor, and the Country needs the rail transporation, something has to give. What will it be?
Don't know, but I'm sure it will require billions (at least) of your tax dollars being pumped into them to make whatever they want to work, work.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I am actually not surprised at the recommendations. I've tried telling co-workers that when you compare class one railroaders with every other blue collar worker, we're towards the top end. Which the class ones are quick to point out.
So many would respond with the gains made by other workers who were on strike over the last year or so. That people in general were more supportive of working people. Too some extent maybe, but many of those had in years past taken major consessions on wages and benefits. Even so, those that made gains haven't reached the levels they would've been at had they not made the original consessions years ago.
If it came right down to it, the average person doesn't have a clue in what it takes to make the premium wages the railroad pays. (It's the lifestyle, the call at all hours in any kind of weather any day of the year, time away from home - maybe working at an outlying point hundreds of miles from home. Etc.) The railroads play on this with their propaganda, twisting numbers to make class one railroaders out to be overpaid, primadonna, whiners. I believe the PEB members saw through the railroads smoke and mirrors, but also took into account where railroaders are compared to everyone else.
There are parts of the recommendations that the PEB has sent back to both parties for further negotiations, and barring agreement on them, binding arbitration. Some of those items I want no part of, like the new bidding system. Where in effect you have to rebid your current job every so often. I believe NS and CSX have this in whole or on part of their systems. (Zug, do you have this?)
The self-supporting pool concept also is suspect. (The reason is to get rid of or drastically reduce, the guaranteed extra boards that cover pool vacancies.) To be self-supporting, you'll need enough to run the volume of traffic even with vacancies. So the pools get flooded with excess people. (I know right now this is less of a problem since they're short handed.) But what if people don't lay off as much? My pool doesn't have a guarantee. If we go to self-supporting pools, will we get a guarantee? Right now, even short handed, my terminal and pool can be feast or famine. It's either work on or nearly on my rest or sit 48 or more hours between calls. (Even during the slower stretches, we have some who think we work too much.) In times past, when the slow stretches lasted too long, one could go to an extra board. But the idea is to get rid of them.
I don't have the answers, but it will be interesting times come the middle of September.
jeffhergert... The self-supporting pool concept also is suspect. (The reason is to get rid of or drastically reduce, the guaranteed extra boards that cover pool vacancies.) To be self-supporting, you'll need enough to run the volume of traffic even with vacancies. So the pools get flooded with excess people. (I know right now this is less of a problem since they're short handed.) But what if people don't lay off as much? My pool doesn't have a guarantee. If we go to self-supporting pools, will we get a guarantee? Right now, even short handed, my terminal and pool can be feast or famine. It's either work on or nearly on my rest or sit 48 or more hours between calls. (Even during the slower stretches, we have some who think we work too much.) In times past, when the slow stretches lasted too long, one could go to an extra board. But the idea is to get rid of them. I don't have the answers, but it will be interesting times come the middle of September. Jeff
Before I retired from CSX in 2016 - I recall seeing Divisional Notices being published quarterly that listed each Assignment/Pool/Yard Job/Extra Board on the division and their guaranteed earnings. Jobs would be bulletined as necessary to fill vacancies on the positions.
I don't know what the effective date of the contracts that expired in 2019 were, however, I suspect what I was seeing was in accordance with that contract, at least as it applied to CSX and the agreements that were effective on CSX. CSX had local agreements recognizing each of the legacy carriers that formed CSX - they are all different.
Not having been T&E I know there are more inticacies buried in the various agreements than I can comprehend.
BaltACD jeffhergert ... The self-supporting pool concept also is suspect. (The reason is to get rid of or drastically reduce, the guaranteed extra boards that cover pool vacancies.) To be self-supporting, you'll need enough to run the volume of traffic even with vacancies. So the pools get flooded with excess people. (I know right now this is less of a problem since they're short handed.) But what if people don't lay off as much? My pool doesn't have a guarantee. If we go to self-supporting pools, will we get a guarantee? Right now, even short handed, my terminal and pool can be feast or famine. It's either work on or nearly on my rest or sit 48 or more hours between calls. (Even during the slower stretches, we have some who think we work too much.) In times past, when the slow stretches lasted too long, one could go to an extra board. But the idea is to get rid of them. I don't have the answers, but it will be interesting times come the middle of September. Jeff Before I retired from CSX in 2016 - I recall seeing Divisional Notices being published quarterly that listed each Assignment/Pool/Yard Job/Extra Board on the division and their guaranteed earnings. Jobs would be bulletined as necessary to fill vacancies on the positions. I don't know what the effective date of the contracts that expired in 2019 were, however, I suspect what I was seeing was in accordance with that contract, at least as it applied to CSX and the agreements that were effective on CSX. CSX had local agreements recognizing each of the legacy carriers that formed CSX - they are all different. Not having been T&E I know there are more inticacies buried in the various agreements than I can comprehend.
jeffhergert ... The self-supporting pool concept also is suspect. (The reason is to get rid of or drastically reduce, the guaranteed extra boards that cover pool vacancies.) To be self-supporting, you'll need enough to run the volume of traffic even with vacancies. So the pools get flooded with excess people. (I know right now this is less of a problem since they're short handed.) But what if people don't lay off as much? My pool doesn't have a guarantee. If we go to self-supporting pools, will we get a guarantee? Right now, even short handed, my terminal and pool can be feast or famine. It's either work on or nearly on my rest or sit 48 or more hours between calls. (Even during the slower stretches, we have some who think we work too much.) In times past, when the slow stretches lasted too long, one could go to an extra board. But the idea is to get rid of them. I don't have the answers, but it will be interesting times come the middle of September. Jeff
On a now defunct forum populated mostly by railroaders from all over, guys were talking about this new bid assignment system. I remember a CSX guy (There were sub-forums for each class one.) talking about going to this system. It happened two or three years ago.
Every period, and I don't remember how long the period lasts, you rebid your job. It's like how some of our yards work. In the yards it's called a "Daily Mark Up Board." Every day you had to call in on a bid recorder telephone line, leaving your name and ID and then what jobs you wanted to work the next day. You listed them in preference order. The bid clerk would take all the bids and assign each yard job by seniority and after assignments were made you called the line and found out which assignment you received.
I believe the system referred to in the carrier's proposal is the same basic system, but for all assignments: road pools, yard, local and extra boards. Instead of calling by phone, you maintain in preference order the assignments you want in the computer. If the bids are maintained, so that you don't have to fill out bids for every new cycle it might not be so bad. Except for those at the bottom of pools and extra boards who might find out that they now are assigned some where else. Woe be to those that either don't fill out enough options or forget to fill out the bids.
If the railroads want it, they have a reason and it isn't to help employees know where or when they are going to work.
Murphy Siding SD60MAC9500 From page 32.. "The Carriers maintain that capital investment and risk are the reasons for their profits, not any contributions by labor. The Carriers further argue that there is no correlation historically between high profits and higher compensation, either in the freight rail industry or more generally. To the contrary, one of the Carriers’ experts maintained that the most profitable companies are not those whose compensation is the highest. The Carriers assert that since employees have been fairly and adequately paid for their efforts and do not share in the downside risks if the operations are less profitable, then they have no claim to share in the upside either." Are these the same folks that can't hire enough employees right now?Don't the employees share in "the downside" by being laid off the minute traffic slows?I wonder how that capital investment and risk are going to make them profits without any contributions by labor?
Are these the same folks that can't hire enough employees right now?Don't the employees share in "the downside" by being laid off the minute traffic slows?I wonder how that capital investment and risk are going to make them profits without any contributions by labor?
The minute you get hired you get furloughed... For them to say that's not a downside?.. Back around 2002 I got a job offer from NS out of its Toledo Terminal. The only problem I would be furloughed as soon as I got hired... Yeah I'm good...
The outright lie that labor doesn't add to the bottom line is disrespectful.. I guess ghost must operate trains these days. I wouldn't tell anybody to try and hire on the rails these days.. With the exception of a shortline or regional.
Labour is viewed as a cost, not an asset. And a cost is something you try to reduce or get rid of.
It's the same with operations and customer service, they shoot themselves in the foot all the time by giving up on dollars of revenue so they can cut cents of costs.
CP's Canadian guys just got 'awarded' a two year contract at 3.5% per year. Apparently that's all the union asked for (they must have made their submission before the recent inflation surge became apparent).
Our CTY contract expired on July 1, of course we're still working as negotiations continue. Probably going to be another strike this winter.
As for labour not adding anything to the bottom line, when I was the conductor on an outlying switcher assignment I would end up adding revenue and improving car utilization simply by ignoring our paperwork and talking to the customers to find out what they actually wanted (they would often forget to order a full spot of cars or release ones they had finished with). If I obeyed the paperwork and our official company policies plenty of cars would get delayed by an extra day or two and a bunch more carloads per day would end up leaving on trucks.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
When I worked under the CSX bid system you entered a list of your prefered jobs in the computer and it was retained there until you changed it or the available jobs changed. The assignments were awarded once per week according to senoirty.
This weekly awarding of prefered assignments helped people change assignments more easily since under the old system you couldn't change assignments unless you were displaced off your current job, another job was vacated, or a new one created.
I used this to move to a yard job for awhile if I wanted a regular schedule and then back to a road assignment. It also worked for moving to a different home terminal.
Mark
SD70DudeLabour is viewed as a cost, not an asset. And a cost is something you try to reduce or get rid of. ...
...
You get the biggest cost reductions by eliminating the occupants of the Board Room.
Questions: Do CP and CN in Canada have crew shortages? Are CN and CP empoloyees in Canada as dissatisfied with working conditios as USA operating employees appear to be? Are CP and CN in any way thyinking of ground-based conductors and one-man train crews?
And does Canadian praqctse have anything to teach USA Class-!s?
What about the larger USA Regionals?
An awful lot has changed since 70 years ago and my Boston & Maine days. There was nothing like the employee dissatisfaction that has existed for the past several yeaers, particularly worse with bso-called PSR (whach I claim should be called Asset Utilization Railroading as opposed to Customer Resposive Railroading, and both need Precision._)
PEB set a baseline for how much workers can expect in terms of wages and health care benefits and costs. Not surprisingly, PEB did not make recommendations for much else. Really, trying to get into the details of bid processes, layoff and attendance policies, and crew consists. But now that a baseline is set, the individual crafts are free to negotiate tradeoffs where they get quality-of-life improvements for reductions in the proposed wage increases. People here have claimed that wages are not the most important factor, so should we expect to see such deals being cut (or at least offered up by the unions) on the TYE side?
(I don't think that MOW and MOE have quite the same concerns with quality-of-life issues, so I doubt they would be interested.)
Dan
SD60MAC9500 From page 32.. "The Carriers maintain that capital investment and risk are the reasons for their profits, not any contributions by labor. The Carriers further argue that there is no correlation historically between high profits and higher compensation, either in the freight rail industry or more generally. To the contrary, one of the Carriers’ experts maintained that the most profitable companies are not those whose compensation is the highest. The Carriers assert that since employees have been fairly and adequately paid for their efforts and do not share in the downside risks if the operations are less profitable, then they have no claim to share in the upside either." IF there wasn't an anymore inflammatory paragraph than this.. I don't know what is.. This alone would make me resign. I wouldn't even wait for a strike..
Labor is one input needed to make the business run. Many others are needed too. Suppose Exxon and BP said, "The railroads are making their huge profits only because we have supplied them with diesel fuel, therefore we deserve higher prices for that fuel."
I mean, what the carriers articulated is the basis of capitalism: investors buy inputs from suppliers and add value; labor is an input they need to buy, and workers sell their labor in exchange for wages. I don't see how it's offensive or insulting.
And having this view doesn't prevent you from placing special min,-monetary value on employees, just like most companies have special relationships with some of their suppliers. A company like, say, Loram has special strategic relationships with its Class 1 customers, and a big enough downturn in the rail industry could put Loram out of business. But Loram still understands that they don't have an ownership interest in those railroads and don't get a share of their profits.
daveklepper Questions: Do CP and CN in Canada have crew shortages? ... What about the larger USA Regionals?
Questions: Do CP and CN in Canada have crew shortages?
Maybe you've missed this info, it has been mentioned several times but bears repeating: almost every company in North America, in almost every industry, is having trouble hiring and retaining people. Period.
There's some anecdotal evidence that railroads are having it worse than other industries, but apparently no hard numbers to back that up - or at least, it doesn't sound like labor organizations submitted any such comparisons to the PEB.
dpeltier daveklepper Questions: Do CP and CN in Canada have crew shortages? ... What about the larger USA Regionals? Maybe you've missed this info, it has been mentioned several times but bears repeating: almost every company in North America, in almost every industry, is having trouble hiring and retaining people. Period. There's some anecdotal evidence that railroads are having it worse than other industries, but apparently no hard numbers to back that up - or at least, it doesn't sound like labor organizations submitted any such comparisons to the PEB. Dan
Not hard to understand why.. the baby boomer generation is retiring in droves now, and other inputs like the pandemic and poor planning (at some companies) simply exacerbates this trend. We knew it was coming.. even we boomers retire and won't live forever. That's not to say that all labor shortages and retention issues are due to the retirement curve, but a big part of it is. Looking back to the late 60s and 70s all companies good and bad had their pick for just about any job. Some of the companies I worked for didn't even have HR or hiring departments. Good luck trying to get on at most places unless you had someone pulling for you on the inside. A couple of people from my HS graduating class got on with CN in 1979.. both had connections on the inside that got them in. Both are still with CN today. Were companies back then so much better? Not a chance.. they were for the most part worse in every way.. but lots of desperate young people around back then so it didn't matter as every crummy job had multiple applicants.
The funny thing is that there are so many parallels to what occurred to cause early demise of large steam road power in the latter half of the 1940s. Guess people think Santayana's observation is just a platitude or a cliche...
And yet we have objections to single physical man on the locomotive, and no human-scheduled calls, and no active fatigue-reducing measures, and... well, I think we'll see the same sort of changes to operating paradigms that occurred in shop practice three-quarters of a century ago.
Financiers may not like it. Screw 'em. Sorry not to be family-friendly.
A growing economy combined with a shrinking pool of available labor will only further incentivize automation and better pay and working conditions for those who are left. Henry Ford came up with the assembly line to avoid having to rely on a large pool of skilled craftsmen... the assembly line allowed the automotive industry to grow exponentially through the use of largely unskilled labor. Similar changes will be required going forward to address labor shortages which are here for the longterm. Businesses will need to adapt to this new reality or go under.
Methinks part of the problem is summed up in a relatively recent "saw:" A lot of kids get out of college expecting to find a position and end up with a job. Some won't accept that and end up in mom & dad's basement until they do find something they consider suitable.
Today's potential worker has a far different expectation of what a "job" is. And that expectation isn't spinning lug nuts on car wheels or moving rolls of paper around paper mills. Industry with smokestacks is a dying breed in this country.
Another factor I've heard from two very different sources - those entering the workforce today are from a generation that oftimes has never heard the word "no."
It's what I'm hearing as well from my colleagues in the PNW. We feel union leadership let us down as well. They wanted their case to go before the PEB because they thought they'd get a better deal. Not so. The PEB essentially sided with the carriers.
You're essentially correct, track and signal/telecom want the money.
But in places such as the Puget Sound region where the cost of living is higher, we want adjustments for housing, like the military gets. Signal maintainers in Seattle make the same money as those in Nowhere Nebraska make.
And don't say, "Well, move to Nebraska." Doesn't work that way.
dpeltier PEB set a baseline for how much workers can expect in terms of wages and health care benefits and costs. Not surprisingly, PEB did not make recommendations for much else. Really, trying to get into the details of bid processes, layoff and attendance policies, and crew consists. But now that a baseline is set, the individual crafts are free to negotiate tradeoffs where they get quality-of-life improvements for reductions in the proposed wage increases. People here have claimed that wages are not the most important factor, so should we expect to see such deals being cut (or at least offered up by the unions) on the TYE side? (I don't think that MOW and MOE have quite the same concerns with quality-of-life issues, so I doubt they would be interested.) Dan
tree68 Methinks part of the problem is summed up in a relatively recent "saw:" A lot of kids get out of college expecting to find a position and end up with a job. Some won't accept that and end up in mom & dad's basement until they do find something they consider suitable. Today's potential worker has a far different expectation of what a "job" is. And that expectation isn't spinning lug nuts on car wheels or moving rolls of paper around paper mills. Industry with smokestacks is a dying breed in this country. Another factor I've heard from two very different sources - those entering the workforce today are from a generation that oftimes has never heard the word "no."
The younger people coming in now seem to be more self assured and won't put up with alot of stuff my generation did...maybe because they don't have to. My kids both work hard and have summer jobs.. and they both cherry picked the employers they wanted to work for and interviewed them.. Back in the day we job seekers would go hat in hand to The Man, and hopefully someone..anyone.. would see fit to hire us. How times have changed, and in many ways for the better.
Paul Schmidt You're essentially correct, track and signal/telecom want the money. But in places such as the Puget Sound region where the cost of living is higher, we want adjustments for housing, like the military gets. Signal maintainers in Seattle make the same money as those in Nowhere Nebraska make. And don't say, "Well, move to Nebraska." Doesn't work that way.
This is an issue for exempts as well. The Sound Transit construction department is rapidly becoming the Seattle chapter of the BNSF Alumni Club.
IMO ---- What is going to happen is that union members will reject. Strike . Quick congressional action. Then the great job quit version 2 will happen. As to what happens to the quiters ????
Can any judge force them to work?
blue streak 1 IMO ---- What is going to happen is that union members will reject. Strike . Quick congressional action. Then the great job quit version 2 will happen. As to what happens to the quiters ???? Can any judge force them to work?
tree68Another factor I've heard from two very different sources - those entering the workforce today are from a generation that oftimes has never heard the word "no."
You will have no retirement.
You will have no way to afford a nice house.
You will have no way to afford the hobbies/toys/trips you want.
But please spend your entire life working 100 hours a week for global industries, inc.
Paul SchmidtSignal maintainers in Seattle make the same money as those in Nowhere Nebraska make. And don't say, "Well, move to Nebraska." Doesn't work that way.
Hey now! It's not that bad out here -- in fact, it's kind of nice.
Posted from Nowhere, Nebraska.
York1 John
Change 'Management' to 'Shareholders'
BaltACDChange 'Management' to 'Shareholders'
Actually "activist investors" would be more appropriate, methinks.
tree68 BaltACD Change 'Management' to 'Shareholders' Actually "activist investors" would be more appropriate, methinks.
BaltACD Change 'Management' to 'Shareholders'
In any event the 'trickle' to employees is accurate.
BaltACDIn any event the 'trickle' to employees is accurate.
Yep.
Paul Schmidt It's what I'm hearing as well from my colleagues in the PNW. We feel union leadership let us down as well. They wanted their case to go before the PEB because they thought they'd get a better deal. Not so. The PEB essentially sided with the carriers.
It was going to go to a PEB eventually. The unions forced it sooner rather than later by being asked to be released from mediation when they did. There was no way the carriers were ever going to agree to what the unions wanted, and vice-versa. In negotiations you ask for the moon and stars, but then negotiate until you get something less. That goes for both sides, but that is happeneing less and less in everything these days.
A few of us, while thinking we thought we would've done a little better with a Democratic appointed PEB, aren't too surprised. The PEB recommends more of a wage hike than the carriers want, but did give the carriers a big bone with health care.
The one thing the unions should've handled differently is their request for a couple more holidays. Instead of asking for specific days, they should've asked to add any holiday that the carriers use to penalize employees under their attendence policies.
The next contract is going to be the big thing. I believe section 6 notices can be served at the end of 2024. I fear the anger for the current round will be nothing compared to the next one.
The labor agreements should contain a provision whereby employees are rewarded for taking initiative..i.e. SD70 Dude's post above. When a conductor circumvents the red tape in favor of going the extra mile for the customer. That should be encouraged and rewarded somehow, perhaps by giving the people on the front lines more autonomy in decision making. Likely for every conductor who goes that extra mile now there are ten who won't do that for fear of being reprimanded. Give the front line people more power to make decisions and reward them generously for it..that's a "win" for everyone.
That would involve admitting that employees can actually make a positive contribution.....
It's not just crews, trainmasters and mid-level managers don't get rewarded for finding additional business either, we are all just supposed to follow the plan (they do get punished when cars that are released don't move according to the plan).
Management doesn't want to deal with customers, it's still the PSR mentality of "here's our service, take it or leave it". They just want us to do whatever the paperwork says, even if it is obviously wrong.
zugmann tree68 Another factor I've heard from two very different sources - those entering the workforce today are from a generation that oftimes has never heard the word "no." You will have no retirement. You will have no way to afford a nice house. You will have no way to afford the hobbies/toys/trips you want. But please spend your entire life working 100 hours a week for global industries, inc.
tree68 Another factor I've heard from two very different sources - those entering the workforce today are from a generation that oftimes has never heard the word "no."
Hmm, drive into the CSX dispatch parking lot some time. Lots of jacked up trucks, a couple of vipers, a brand new M5, lots of real nice Harleya and an AMG G wagon. Union people that seem to be able to afford their toys just fine. Maybe because they will not take no for and answer and do not expect those toys to be handed to them.
Unfortunately not everyone can be a CSX dispatcher. Or a CN mainline conductor or engineer, plenty of our guys are also able to obtain those things. But you really have to put in a lot of hours and work as much as possible.
Sometimes I wonder just how much is theirs and how much is the bank's.........
Jobs that pay like ours are disappearing. And precious few have a company pension waiting at the end.
We're all due for a big raise this time around simply to keep up with inflation.
Drive into any Costco parking lot and you'll see the same.. I drive a ten year old van..sometimes get nervous looks when I park next to someone rich and successful like that.
SD70Dude Sometimes I wonder just how much is theirs and how much is the bank's.........
n012944Union people that seem to be able to afford their toys just fine. Maybe because they will not take no for and answer and do not expect those toys to be handed to them.
Ah, yes, your one example of anecdotal evidence must be true for all the younger generations of workers.
I wans't just talking about RRers, but people as a whole.
Yeah, many people have nice cars, trucks and houses. And many people are up to their eyeballs in debt and one paycheck away from bankruptcy.
zugmann n012944 Union people that seem to be able to afford their toys just fine. Maybe because they will not take no for and answer and do not expect those toys to be handed to them. Ah, yes, your one example of anecdotal evidence must be true for all the younger generations of workers. I wans't just talking about RRers, but people as a whole. Yeah, many people have nice cars, trucks and houses. And many people are up to their eyeballs in debt and one paycheck away from bankruptcy.
n012944 Union people that seem to be able to afford their toys just fine. Maybe because they will not take no for and answer and do not expect those toys to be handed to them.
When I left my non-contract 'Official' job I was making minimum credit card payments and sinking financially. Having to go to a contract position, with the availability of Overtime, allowed me to dig myself. At times I full resembled the one paycheck from bankruptcy.
The PEB is flying the middle finger to the crafts.
Ulrich. I drive a ten year old van..sometimes get nervous looks when I park next to someone rich and successful like that.
Hey, I drive an 11-year-old Hyundai and I always park next to expensive cars!
If one of us is going to get broken into or have our cars stolen guess who it's gonna be?
Flintlock76 Ulrich . I drive a ten year old van..sometimes get nervous looks when I park next to someone rich and successful like that. Hey, I drive an 11-year-old Hyundai and I always park next to expensive cars! If one of us is going to get broken into or have our cars stolen guess who it's gonna be?
Ulrich . I drive a ten year old van..sometimes get nervous looks when I park next to someone rich and successful like that.
I love doing that. I already have so many scratches and dents it's gotta make them nervous, and if they scrape me on the way out I won't even notice!
I've spent my whole career living in a town 'renowned' for its high level of petty crime, and I've never had my car broken into (yet, knock on wood). It's like they think I'm one of them.
Expensive luxury cars on the left, us on the right.....
My progression of street cars for the past 38 years. 1984 Dodge Daytona Turbo that was traded in November 1994 with 230K on the Odo for a used 1990 Jeep Cherokee that had 78K on the clock. Got rid of the Jeep in 2003 with 300K on the odometer for 2003 Dodge Durango demonstrator with 6K, got rid of the Durango in 2018 for a used 2017 Ram 1500 pick up with 17K. Ram is still the daily driver with 81K on the clock and put a new battery in it last week.
Ulrich I drive a ten year old van..sometimes get nervous looks when I park next to someone rich and successful like that.
Two Men have $100,000..
One buys a 2022 Z06 Corvette...
The other bought a 7 year old vehicle $8500 cash. Car is free and clear with 75K on the odometer and some issues, but the cars runs reliably and he has garage know how if repairs are needed. He invested the rest.
I wonder who's more successful in this scenario?..
Looks can be deceiving..
So, I guess being able to afford toys is not that big of a deal as one on here makes it out to be...
So I'm guessing all these companies will have no problems filling all their employment needs.
Let the outcomes speak for themselves.
zugmann So I'm guessing all these companies will have no problems filling all their employment needs. Let the outcomes speak for themselves.
Railroads will struggle to fill jobs as long as there is not some sort of drug testing that only checks if you are currently impaired approved. The desire to toke up is just to important to the current generation.
SD60MAC9500 Ulrich I drive a ten year old van..sometimes get nervous looks when I park next to someone rich and successful like that. Two Men have $100,000.. One buys a 2022 Z06 Corvette... The other bought a 7 year old vehicle $8500 cash. Car is free and clear with 75K on the odometer and some issues, but the cars runs reliably and he has garage know how if repairs are needed. He invested the rest. I wonder who's more successful in this scenario?.. Looks can be deceiving..
A third man buys a Z06 with 10% down, and finances the rest at a low apr. Then he invests the remaining 90k. Let someone else's money do the work for you.
In this market, the guy can probably flip the Vette for a profit. A guy at work ordered a ZL1 from the factory, and on delivery the dealer offered to buy it for 10k over what he paid.
I know, I know, more anecdotal evidence. Better to just make broad unsupported statements.
n012944Railroads will struggle to fill jobs as long as there is not some sort of drug testing that only checks if you are currently impaired approved. The desire to toke up is just to important to the current generation.
Sure. That must be it.
Even if they got rid of the Mary Jane testing, the loss of many regular jobs and draconian attendance policies will keep people from staying, even if they can hire on without the Marijuana testing.
n012944I know, I know, more anecdotal evidence. Better to just make broad unsupported statements.
It really isn't. But whatever. Your mind is set.
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zugmann Euclid I understand that the Presidential Emergency Board was just created this summer. Is this a new concept or has there been an equivalent to it in the past? Regarding the PEB mission to prevent labor disputes from interfering with the public interest in the supply of transportation, what is the ultimate remedy available to the PEB? I find references to ways to encourage settlement, but no mention about what will be done if no settlement is obtained. It's part of the Railway Labor Act. Here's a summary. And if a strike were to happen, expect congress to get involved per the United States Consitution, Article 1, Section 8.
Euclid I understand that the Presidential Emergency Board was just created this summer. Is this a new concept or has there been an equivalent to it in the past? Regarding the PEB mission to prevent labor disputes from interfering with the public interest in the supply of transportation, what is the ultimate remedy available to the PEB? I find references to ways to encourage settlement, but no mention about what will be done if no settlement is obtained.
It's part of the Railway Labor Act.
Here's a summary.
And if a strike were to happen, expect congress to get involved per the United States Consitution, Article 1, Section 8.
Actually it's not part of the Railway Labor Act. With the end of the cooling off period, the RLA has run it's course. Both sides may invoke "self-help," a strike or lock-out.
Congressional action is, as is cited, under the authority provided by the Consitution, upheld by a Supreme Court decision circa in 1917. They can "rubber stamp" the PEB recommendations or they can pretty much do as they please. They can add things to it, or take things out of it, in effect write what the contract will be and then vote to impose it. Usually, they just do the rubber stamping thing.
In years past, many years - 1952 being the last time, the President has Federalized railroad employees using powers granted during and by war time acts. In those cases, the army was put in charge of the railroads. I don't know if the current defense production laws would allow this now. Possibly, but I would see that being tried only if Congress can't agree on what to vote on. With an election approaching, I don't see any member up for re-election "rocking the boat" to help labor out.
Euclid I understand that the Presidential Emergency Board was just created this summer. Is this a new concept or has there been an equivalent to it in the past? Regarding the PEB mission to prevent labor disputes from interfering with the public interest in the supply of transportation, what is the ultimate remedy available to the PEB? I find references to ways to encourage settlement, but no mention about what will be done if no settlement is obtained. The board can end strikes, but the ultimate weapon labor has is to resign in mass. They would lose their jobs, but that may only be temporary. In any case they will win the dispute, and the public will be left without rail transportation. What then? This would truly be the ultimate emergency to be resolved by the Presidential Emergency Board. How will they resolve it?
Supply and demand. When vacancies can't be filled the pay and job requirements will be adjusted ..no PEB required. It may take a strike, or maybe some carriers will stay ahead of the game by making changes to avoid worst case scenarios.
UlrichSupply and demand. When vacancies can't be filled the pay and job requirements will be adjusted ..no PEB required. It may take a strike, or maybe some carriers will stay ahead of the game by making changes to avoid worst case scenarios.
As PSR has indicated - the carriers are not capable of independent throught.
jeffhergertIn years past, many years - 1952 being the last time, the President has Federalized railroad employees using powers granted during and by war time acts. In those cases, the army was put in charge of the railroads. I don't know if the current defense production laws would allow this now.
I doubt it, since the country isn't in a state of war at the moment. (OK, there's the War on Terror but the railroads aren't a vital component of that) In 1917 the country was in a declared war on Germany. In 1952 the Korean War was raging and though not a declared war it was an intense one and the railroads were vital to its prosecution.
No such situation exists now to call for Federalization of any kind.
Flintlock76 jeffhergert In years past, many years - 1952 being the last time, the President has Federalized railroad employees using powers granted during and by war time acts. In those cases, the army was put in charge of the railroads. I don't know if the current defense production laws would allow this now. I doubt it, since the country isn't in a state of war at the moment. (OK, there's the War on Terror but the railroads aren't a vital component of that) In 1917 the country was in a declared war on Germany. In 1952 the Korean War was raging and though not a declared war it was an intense one and the railroads were vital to its prosecution. No such situation exists now to call for Federalization of any kind.
jeffhergert In years past, many years - 1952 being the last time, the President has Federalized railroad employees using powers granted during and by war time acts. In those cases, the army was put in charge of the railroads. I don't know if the current defense production laws would allow this now.
The 1952 use of presidential power was under a 1916 law that granted powers to the president and was due to run out with the formal signing of peace treaties ending WW2. That law was extended by a 1952 act of congress. The Korean conflict was undeclared and did not by itself meet the parameters of the 1916 act.
The Defense Production Act has been used by both Trump and Biden using the Covid 19 pandemic as a background. It would be a stretch to apply it to railroads, some think it was a stretch for both to have used this act the way they did, however railroads do carry DOD freight.
I think this move would only be tried if Congress can't or won't act in timely manner. I expect Congress to immediately take steps to prevent any strike or lock out.
The carriers have already said that while they don't like the PEB recommendations, they'll accept them.
Regarding how often PEBs have been used, this is the 250th board that has been convened. Hence PEB250 as appears in the original post.
What's so hard to understand about supply and demand? If wages need to go up and working conditions need to be adjusted then that will happen..There's inertia of course as people aren't hired instantly..there's a process, and that takes time. In five and ten years from now there will be trains, and they will be crewed by one or two people..The sky is not falling..
Extinction.
Ulrich What's so hard to understand about supply and demand?
What's so hard to understand about supply and demand?
Who said anything about supply and demand being hard to understand? In previous theads, I said that an ongoing difficulty in hiring people is basically proof that the wages are too low. I said that supply and demand is what determines the price of labor. So if a big industry sector cannot get people to work for it, that proves that wages are not high enough. Many disagreed with me and said that wages are not the issue. They said the issue was working conditions. So fine, improve the working conditions. But if they cannot fix the working condtions, they have to pay more. If they won't pay enough to make the whole job package attractive to workers, they will go out of business. It is all supply and demand, and probably the easiest part of economics to understand.
When the national unemployment rate is 3.5 percent - the lowest in the past century and a fifth - the industry standing on deplorable working conditions and insufficient compensation to make up for the working conditions is not a winning hand going forward.
The PEB and its recommendations think unemployment is at 12 percent.
Euclid Well, actually my main point was in my second paragraph of my question on the previous page as follows: “The board can end strikes, but the ultimate weapon labor has is to resign in mass. They would lose their jobs, but that may only be temporary. In any case they will win the dispute, and the public will be left without rail transportation. What then? This would truly be the ultimate emergency to be resolved by the Presidential Emergency Board. How will they resolve it?” If it does not go that far, I can see the refusal of labor to accept the offer and voting to strike, and then the strike being prevented by the government. Then a solution will be imposed that offers a higher rate of pay. The higher pay will not be deemed sufficient, but labor will accept it and continue working. But I am thinking that we are in revolutionary times, and many railroaders are quitting or vowing to quit if things don’t get a lot better soon. And even though that may be in the future, it has already begun as an emerging trend. And in reaction, management is doubling down to push labor harder than ever. At the same time, they are finding it impossible to hire replacements. So I see the possibility of these current negotiations reaching a breaking point of frustration that will actually lead to some degree of mass resignation as a collective protest statement demanding that change must happen. This would be a very radical move, but it might lead to radical improvements if the time were right for it. And right now, the time just may be right. Regulators are already expressing worries that railroads are facing such a labor shortage that they may not be able to meet their common carrier obligations. If this did happen, it would trigger the very emergency that the PEB was founded to prevent. So they would most certainly swing into action to solve the problem. Some remedies that come to mind are nationalizing railroad operations and then trying to impose a solution, subsidizing railroad labor with very large pay increases, or undertaking massive training programs to cultivate a whole new class of labor who will agree to work under the present pay and conditions.
The PEB has no authority to prevent a strike or lock out. It is an advisory board, it's recommendations are not binding. If one or both sides reject it's recommendations, they are free to exercise self-help, strike or lock-out, after the last 30 day cooling off period. Both sides are still free to try to negotiate any differences within that last 30 days.
It's congressional action that can make PEB recommendations, with or without amendments to it, to be what the final labor contract is.
I know a lot are saying they will leave. Well, they may as well walk now. (Some are saying they are waiting for the back pay. They'll get that whether they are current employees or not. It's money they should've already been paid.) Unless Congress makes changes, "sweetening the pot" as it were, what the PEB handed down will be what the contract is.
Will some leave? Maybe some. I think a lot more of them are grumbling then will actually leave. Especially those with time in. Exceptions are those who are able to go to another railroad, even a short line/regional to maintain RR retirement. We have one guy currently training who gave up 20 years on the BNSF to come to us. I guess he got tired of the frying pan and decided to jump into the fire.
Despite not getting the raise they want, most aren't going to make anywhere near what they make now. Money isn't everything, and I agree, but most are going to take a 25 to 50% cut, and go back to social security. (I hear many say that if they ever took away RR retirement they'll leave.) I do believe they need to provide either rest days or more friendly attendence policies, but many already have FMLA so they can get time off without repurcussions, at least from the company.
https://acrobat.adobe.com/link/track?uri=urn:aaid:scds:US:9d875b7d-506d-3447-a87e-67e0e12510b5
jeffhergertThe PEB has no authority to prevent a strike or lock out. It is an advisory board, it's recommendations are not binding. If one or both sides reject it's recommendations, they are free to exercise self-help, strike or lock-out, after the last 30 day cooling off period. Both sides are still free to try to negotiate any differences within that last 30 days. It's congressional action that can make PEB recommendations, with or without amendments to it, to be what the final labor contract is. I know a lot are saying they will leave. Well, they may as well walk now. (Some are saying they are waiting for the back pay. They'll get that whether they are current employees or not. It's money they should've already been paid.) Unless Congress makes changes, "sweetening the pot" as it were, what the PEB handed down will be what the contract is. Will some leave? Maybe some. I think a lot more of them are grumbling then will actually leave. Especially those with time in. Exceptions are those who are able to go to another railroad, even a short line/regional to maintain RR retirement. We have one guy currently training who gave up 20 years on the BNSF to come to us. I guess he got tired of the frying pan and decided to jump into the fire. Despite not getting the raise they want, most aren't going to make anywhere near what they make now. Money isn't everything, and I agree, but most are going to take a 25 to 50% cut, and go back to social security. (I hear many say that if they ever took away RR retirement they'll leave.) I do believe they need to provide either rest days or more friendly attendence policies, but many already have FMLA so they can get time off without repurcussions, at least from the company. Jeff
BaltACDWhen the national unemployment rate is 3.5 percent - the lowest in the past century and a fifth
That's what they're saying, but on the other hand they're saying hundreds of thousands of jobs are going unfilled. Are there more jobs than people to fill them? Or no-one wants to fill them?
Honestly I don't know what to think, but if the latter point's true if railroaders decide to walk away from the job it would seem there's other work waiting for them. Maybe not "perfect" jobs but jobs just the same.
Flintlock76 BaltACD When the national unemployment rate is 3.5 percent - the lowest in the past century and a fifth That's what they're saying, but on the other hand they're saying hundreds of thousands of jobs are going unfilled. Are there more jobs than people to fill them? Or no-one wants to fill them? Honestly I don't know what to think, but if the latter point's true if railroaders decide to walk away from the job it would seem there's other work waiting for them. Maybe not "perfect" jobs but jobs just the same.
BaltACD When the national unemployment rate is 3.5 percent - the lowest in the past century and a fifth
Today people don't have have to 'settle' for a job they really don't want just for the money that really doesn't compensate for what the job actually entails. With UE at 3.5% they can job shop. I fully understand that I was a dinosaur in working 51+ years for one organization; during that time I saw many come and leave for what they perceived as being better jobs (if they were better or not, only they know).
US citizens, by and large, don't want to perform the jobs that immigrant labor is more than happy to do. US hiring organizations really WISH they were dealing with the desparate immigrant population that they can hire for pennies on the dollar.
zugmann n012944 I know, I know, more anecdotal evidence. Better to just make broad unsupported statements. It really isn't. But whatever. Your mind is set.
n012944 I know, I know, more anecdotal evidence. Better to just make broad unsupported statements.
As is yours.
zugmann n012944 Railroads will struggle to fill jobs as long as there is not some sort of drug testing that only checks if you are currently impaired approved. The desire to toke up is just to important to the current generation. Sure. That must be it. Even if they got rid of the Mary Jane testing, the loss of many regular jobs and draconian attendance policies will keep people from staying, even if they can hire on without the Marijuana testing.
n012944 Railroads will struggle to fill jobs as long as there is not some sort of drug testing that only checks if you are currently impaired approved. The desire to toke up is just to important to the current generation.
It will keep new hires from replacing those choose to move on. We, as a county, has spent the last 30 years saying that smoking one leaf (tobacco) is bad, however another leaf is okay.
n012944It will keep new hires from replacing those choose to move on. We, as a county, has spent the last 30 years saying that smoking one leaf (tobacco) is bad, however another leaf is okay.
I don't disagree with you on that, but I also don't think it's the main thing from keeping people from wanting to work for the RRs.
When will Nicotine testing start?
Part of the reason for the worker shortage is that for many workers in the retirement age range, Covid was the final deciding factor on whether to retire or stick it out an extra couple of years. I was one of them and I retired.
BaltACD When will Nicotine testing start?
If the carrier's provision to have smokers pay more for their health insurance monthly premium is kept in the next contract, as soon as that contract takes effect.
n012944 zugmann n012944 Railroads will struggle to fill jobs as long as there is not some sort of drug testing that only checks if you are currently impaired approved. The desire to toke up is just to important to the current generation. Sure. That must be it. Even if they got rid of the Mary Jane testing, the loss of many regular jobs and draconian attendance policies will keep people from staying, even if they can hire on without the Marijuana testing. It will keep new hires from replacing those choose to move on. We, as a county, has spent the last 30 years saying that smoking one leaf (tobacco) is bad, however another leaf is okay.
You think tobacco smoking is harmless? You can show real studies showing MJ is more harmful physically than tobacco?
It's not about legalizing stuff based on whether or not it is good for you. Alcohol and tobacco are both addictive and harmful, we have centuries of data to base this on, and yet they are both perfectly legal for adults to purchase and consume. How many accidents on both rail and road has alcohol contributed to over the years? How did Prohibition work out? How many people would support resurrecting that law?
MJ has been legal in my country for several years. Legalizing it didn't create a wave of reefer madness, it simply removed the prohibition on something a sizeable percentage of the population was already doing in their time off, including many railroaders.
The police and railways are slowly adapting to the new reality, both CN and CP have fired a number of people who failed a urine test but passed a mouth swab, and they have lost the majority of those cases at arbitration (there were other circumstances in some of the others). The tests still need to get better but things are slowly going in the right direction.
Just like drinking alcohol, consuming MJ in moderation on your time off has no effect on one's performance at work as long as you show up sober and rested. Some of the best railroaders I've worked with have been regular dope smokers, on their time off of course. One guy would take a few puffs to put himself to sleep, he found this actually worked better than the heavy-duty sleeping pills his doctor had prescribed.
charlie hebdoYou think tobacco smoking is harmless? You can show real studies showing MJ is more harmful physically than tobacco?
From my point of view, it's the lack of objective information on the effects of MJ that is the problem. We know pretty well what alcohol does to the senses, reaction time, etc. Although the "legal intoxication" levels vary, the effects are basically known.
Not so much for MJ. So the question is "how high is too high?" Right now it's pretty much an all or nothing proposition.
Add to that the fact that MJ tends to hang in the body longer.
I've read that the making of MJ into an illegal substance was politically motivated. The folks who used tended to fall into a group the powers that be didn't like very well, so making their choice to partake an illegal activity was one way to remove them from the voting pool.
tree68 charlie hebdo You think tobacco smoking is harmless? You can show real studies showing MJ is more harmful physically than tobacco? From my point of view, it's the lack of objective information on the effects of MJ that is the problem. We know pretty well what alcohol does to the senses, reaction time, etc. Although the "legal intoxication" levels vary, the effects are basically known. Not so much for MJ. So the question is "how high is too high?" Right now it's pretty much an all or nothing proposition. Add to that the fact that MJ tends to hang in the body longer. I've read that the making of MJ into an illegal substance was politically motivated. The folks who used tended to fall into a group the powers that be didn't like very well, so making their choice to partake an illegal activity was one way to remove them from the voting pool.
charlie hebdo You think tobacco smoking is harmless? You can show real studies showing MJ is more harmful physically than tobacco?
The War on Drugs, was also the War on Learning anything about drugs and many other things.
Well, there are methods to administer cannabis that don't involve smoke in the lungs -- methods that would cause poisoning when tobacco/nicotine are the active agents in comparable quantity, and discomfort when in lower quantity. CBD oil is touted as a tonic; nicotine oil is a potent and dangerous insecticide.
When I was in my early teens, my grandfather closed his EENT office in Kingston, and all the contents were shipped down to be stored in our basement. In the '20s and '30s, ethical drug houses like Parke Davis 'advertised' by putting out informative color brochures about physiological problems, with a page on the back cover touting whatever it was they produced that was effective on the conditions described. Thus I came across a gaudily-covered booklet called "Dramatic Episodes of the Heart" -- which I took to be some sort of strange religious tract or pulp magazine until I started reading it. This was all about various kinds of problems with heart action. When I got to the back I was surprised to find that the touted nostrum was something called 'Neurosine" which I had never heard of. It was strange that this miracle potion was effective on a great many of the conditions described in the booklet... conditions that were difficult to treat in the early '70s, let alone with minimal side effects.
Now, there was a cut of a Neurosine bottle on that back panel, done as a line illustration, but if you squinted, you could almost make out the ingredients. In fact if you squinted enough at just the right distance you could make out the active ingredient. Extract of cannabis sativa.
Now what you may find amusing was that, in a comparatively short time, the Reefer Madness crowd was prominently claiming that marihoochie had no legitimate medical applications. And I suspect that in order to fabricate the necessary 'truth', Neurosine had to go, and its memory be stuffed as far down the memory hole as possible.
Now, on the other hand, researchers have, or claim to have, scientific evidence that cannabis deleteriously affects the developing brain, and that it should be restricted or forbidden until users are well into their 20s. I have no reason to dispute their findings.
Meanwhile up in New Jersey cannabis products are legal (sort of, they're still working out the nuances) but the plastic bags to take those products home with are illegal!
Maybe that's why NJ has such a dynamic model railroading culture. Everything else is illegal as well!
OvermodNow, on the other hand, researchers have, or claim to have, scientific evidence that cannabis deleteriously affects the developing brain, and that it should be restricted or forbidden until users are well into their 20s. I have no reason to dispute their findings.
Likely under age 15 is neurologically unwise. The product sold legally here has a much higher THC potency than the stuff back in the 60s. More like hashish.
My mom was a heavy smoker who died of lung cancer.. a slow drawn out death over months where her muscles atrophied until she eventually suffocated. My dad died the same way last year, although fortunately he remained of sound mind and could thus opt for a medical assisted death, at least avoiding the hell my mom went through in her last weeks.. I'm no medical doctor or expert in that field, but I'm not going to put anythng into my body that may cause it harm or which may inhibit my ability to think or earn a living...I don't want my kids to go through what I did with respect to end of life care. If one can do so.. avoid alcohol, tobacco and any kind of drug.. they're just not worth it.
You don't even have to be a smoker to get lung cancer.
charlie hebdo n012944 zugmann n012944 Railroads will struggle to fill jobs as long as there is not some sort of drug testing that only checks if you are currently impaired approved. The desire to toke up is just to important to the current generation. Sure. That must be it. Even if they got rid of the Mary Jane testing, the loss of many regular jobs and draconian attendance policies will keep people from staying, even if they can hire on without the Marijuana testing. It will keep new hires from replacing those choose to move on. We, as a county, has spent the last 30 years saying that smoking one leaf (tobacco) is bad, however another leaf is okay. You think tobacco smoking is harmless? You can show real studies showing MJ is more harmful physically than tobacco?
Murphy SidingI gotta be honest. I don't see where anyone suggested that tobacco smoking is harmless.
I didn't infer the poster was saying tobacco smoking is harmless. What I did get from his comment was the basic illogic of how the fanatical crusade against tobacco products just doesn't square with the almost evangelic promotion of cannabis products.
You've got to smoke 'em both, right? (For the most part.)
Mary Jane's got just as many nasty's in it as tobbaco does, if not more, right?
So why is one so bad, and the other so "good?" It makes no sense, not to me anyway.
Legalizing weed seems like more of a tax gimmick than anything else.
Backshop You don't even have to be a smoker to get lung cancer.
That's true, but the odds go way up if you are. May as well put the odds in your favor if you can. Suffocating to death slowly as your lungs fail is less fun than it sounds.
SD70Dude How did Prohibition work out? How many people would support resurrecting that law?
How did Prohibition work out? How many people would support resurrecting that law?
Recent studies suggest that consumption of alcohol in the beginning fell to 30% of pre-prohibition levels. Consumption later rose back to about 70% of pre-prohibition levels.
Some suggest, that despite headlines of major crime events-St. Valentine's Day Massacre etc., it may not have led to an overall increase in organized crime. Just another line of "business" to get involved in.
And no, most people would not like to see prohibition reinstated.
jeffhergert SD70Dude How did Prohibition work out? How many people would support resurrecting that law? Recent studies suggest that consumption of alcohol in the beginning fell to 30% of pre-prohibition levels. Consumption later rose back to about 70% of pre-prohibition levels. Some suggest, that despite headlines of major crime events-St. Valentine's Day Massacre etc., it may not have led to an overall increase in organized crime. Just another line of "business" to get involved in. And no, most people would not like to see prohibition reinstated. Jeff
Whenever you make illegal something that a sizable portion of the population is willing to pay for - you have opened up the business opportunity for organized crime. Prohibition was the vehicle that highlighted the potential of 'big business' to the organized crime element. Once prohibition was repealed the criminal element floated toward gambling and for the most part created Las Vegas; once gambling became socially acceptable organized crime bowed out of the enterprise as there were too many governmental agencies involved in policing the action. When the 'War on Drugs' was announced, is made the illegal drug trade a worldwide affair. The Columbian cartels, the Mexican cartels, the Taliban and many other organizations are in the enterprise today and the totally dwarf anything the US 'organized crime' elements could even dream of.
Business opportunity and ruthless market share enforcement - that's the ticket!
n01***We, as a county, has spent the last 30 years saying that smoking one leaf (tobacco) is bad,
Murphy: Certainly strongly implied. Or is he thinking the Surgeon General should have ignored the evidence?
Flintlock: Tobacco contains carcinogenic tars that are not found in MJ. And tobacco often leads to COPD, a major debilitating and frequently fatal condition. MJ is not to be taken lightly, but I don't know anyone who only used MJ who suffered from lung cancer. Not so with cigarettes.
It's more about not having drivers of vehicles or rail locomotives intoxicated on drugs or alcohol.
Flintlock76I didn't infer the poster was saying tobacco smoking is harmless. What I did get from his comment was the basic illogic of how the fanatical crusade against tobacco products just doesn't square with the almost evangelic promotion of cannabis products.
There's also the issue that cannabis is being touted for healthy benefits as well as "getting high". And as I noted there actually are some prospective advantages, although I susped nowhere near what some of the claims are.
The amusing thing is that it's still a scheduled-drug Federal crime... just that enforcement is selective (e.g. through banking-system prohibitions). You'd think fixing this would have been a priority for the current House. Perhaps it is and they just haven't worked the legislation through for approval yet.
I suspect some of the reason for smoking was that it was convenient to package the covert stuff in nickel bags, and consume it on the sly or in private by simple rolling. When provided via "legal" business, THC-containing material does not have to be smoked.
Mary Jane's got just as many nasties in it as tobacco does, if not more, right?
It would be pathetically easy to run the necessary lab tests. It would be slightly less easy -- but now that it's legal, perhaps less secretly -- to look at long-term incidence of lung cancer or other complications in various levels of tokers compared with their coffin-nail counterparts. I won't hold my breath for the results, though.
OvermodSmoking by lighting up is a stupid excuse for atomizing 'psychogenic substances' for inhalation. Freebasing involves a source of clean combustion for this purpose; nobody pours 7% solution on wacky tobaccy to stack the high. The 'correct' answer is that you use the oil or extract in vape form if you want to toke, or put it in brownies or use that pathetic CBD oil otherwise
I get the impression that few on this post have much if any first-hand knowledge.
CBD oil Is a silly nostrum no better than snake oil for medicinal use and it lacks the euphoria and muscle relaxant effects of THC. THC can be used more safely in gummies.
charlie hebdoI get the impression that few on this post have much if any first-hand knowledge.
"Don't ask, don't tell!"
The problem with today's marijuana is there is no control on THC levels (unlike "proof" of alcohol and tar/nicotine levels in cigs) The higher THC level, the higher chance of mental issues like schizoprenia.
The THC levels in gummies are clearly provided.
Another thing to consider is how many cigarettes does a moderate user smoke compared to how many joints are toked. There's a lot more volume of cigarette smoke going into the lungs than marijuana.
(Throws switch in what will likely be a vain attempt to get the train off the MJ/ CBD siding and and back onto the PEB recommendation mainline.......)
What are you talking about? Where did I say anything about smoking tobacco being harmless? I didn't "imply" anything else. I was pointing out the irony of our current situation on smoking.
BTW, it doesn't have to be "more harmful physically" to be bad for someone to consume.....
https://www.lung.org/quit-smoking/smoking-facts/health-effects/marijuana-and-lung-health
https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/31/2/280
n012944 I was pointing out the irony of our current situation on smoking.
Irony oh irony! Wherefore art thou irony?
As I said, if one doesn't care for "smoking" they can use edibles.
charlie hebdo n012944 I was pointing out the irony of our current situation on smoking. Irony oh irony! Wherefore art thou irony? As I said, if one doesn't care for "smoking" they can use edibles.
Cool story. Judging from the smells on my many walks down the Las Vegas strip, many people are not making that choice.
However, my point still stands, regardless of your failed attempt to say I was "implying" anything else.
The railroads will struggle to find people who are both willing to work an unconventional schedule, and be unable to enjoy the wacky tabacky in their off time. As i said, if a test comes out that is like an alcohol test, only showing if they are currently under the influence, that will make a huge difference.
Railroads in 5 years : "Good news candidate, you can now enjoy Marijuana when you have a few days off!"
Candidate: "Yay!"
Railroad: "But about you having a few days off....."
n012944Cool story. Judging from the smells on my many walks down the Las Vegas strip, many people are not making that choice.
I wouldn't know about Vegas. Not a place I would be caught dead hanging out unless I were a gambling addict or lover of entertainment by has beens.
Looking back I wonder what your initial point was?
charlie hebdo n012944 Cool story. Judging from the smells on my many walks down the Las Vegas strip, many people are not making that choice. I wouldn't know about Vegas. Not a place I would be caught dead hanging out unless I were a gambling addict or lover of entertainment by has beens. Looking back I wonder what your initial point was?
n012944 Cool story. Judging from the smells on my many walks down the Las Vegas strip, many people are not making that choice.
I believe it can be. Is not the drug CBD a duistillation of the weed's mdicinal properties?
Murphy SidingMy question about marijuana is, if it's a good medicine for treating some things- which it seems to be- why can't it be administered in a pill or shot form, like other drugs?
I would offer that more people are interested in the recreational aspect of MJ than in the medicinal aspect.
The demonization of MJ has resulted in a dearth of research into actual beneficial uses. Eventually, hopefully, such uses will become more apparent as research does occur. It appears there may be many, and perhaps the appropriate extracts will be made.
tree68 The demonization of MJ has resulted in a dearth of research into actual beneficial uses.
Personally, I can't stand marijuana, smoked or otherwise -- not from 'not inhaling' in college years, but just because I dislike it and what it does to people who overindulge in it. I'm told that once you get past the tunnel vision and the microamnesia the high can be interesting. Never cared to do that.
I concur that CBD is 'snake oil', of a particularly irritatingly-promoted kind. Whether it contains the demonstrably-active components of the extract that was in Neurosine remains to be established, at least to me. I don't propose to become an expert in cannabinoid pharmacology, so most of what I know will be what I read.
[/diversion], now we should respect the attempt to get back to PEB-related matters in this thread...
charlie hebdoI wouldn't know about Vegas. Not a place I would be caught dead hanging out unless I were a gambling addict or lover of entertainment by has beens.
Same here. A friend of mine who went there and wasn't impressed said "Vegas is a good place if you're a drinker, gambler, or womanizer. If you're not in those categories do yourself a favor and stay home."
OK, back to the original topic. Just my
charlie hebdo n012944 Cool story. Judging from the smells on my many walks down the Las Vegas strip, many people are not making that choice. I wouldn't know about Vegas. Not a place I would be caught dead hanging out unless I were a gambling addict or lover of entertainment by has beens.
So you are boring, got it. I saw The Weekend at Allegiant stadium on Saturday. If you think he is a "has been", you might want to crawl back into your hole, as the world has passed you by.
charlie hebdo Looking back I wonder what your initial point was?
It was spelled out quite clearly in the post that you cut off the last quote from. However, since you somehow thought I implied that tobacco was "harmless", I am not surprised that you missed it.
The demonization of MJ has resulted in a dearth of research into actual beneficial uses.
It has also resulted in a dearth of research into actual harmful causes.
https://www.webmd.com/lung-cancer/guide/marijuana-lung-cancer-risk
"Most of the research on marijuana dates to when it was still widely illegal. It’s hard to gather information about behavior that’s against the law."
Overmod [/diversion], now we should respect the attempt to get back to PEB-related matters in this thread...
At this point, the unions will walk, they will get ordered by Congress to go back to work, and will get a BS contract shoved up their ......
And the railroads will be laughing all to the way to single man crews.
zugmann Railroads in 5 years : "Good news candidate, you can now enjoy Marijuana when you have a few days off!" Candidate: "Yay!" Railroad: "But about you having a few days off....."
There are other crafts besides T&E. They also work non traditional hours, however they often have back to back rest days.
n012944There are other crafts besides T&E. They also work non traditional hours, however they often have back to back rest days.
We'll have to work on that.
Flintlock76 charlie hebdo I wouldn't know about Vegas. Not a place I would be caught dead hanging out unless I were a gambling addict or lover of entertainment by has beens. Same here. A friend of mine who went there and wasn't impressed said "Vegas is a good place if you're a drinker, gambler, or womanizer. If you're not in those categories do yourself a favor and stay home." OK, back to the original topic. Just my
charlie hebdo I wouldn't know about Vegas. Not a place I would be caught dead hanging out unless I were a gambling addict or lover of entertainment by has beens.
I was there for a conference. Interesting place, and I can say I've been there. But I have no want or need to return.
I love Vegas. We spent several days walking the city, seeing the sights, and eating at great restaurants.
It's cheaper than most major cities, has amazing architecture, and it's almost all in walking distance or connected by public transit.
The public transit is cheap, and the transit to the hotels from the airport is free.
We don't gamble. We don't drink a lot. We saw one show, Cirque du Soleil, but we did that only because we had cheap tickets.
We haven't been back in several years because, at our age, we've decided we have to say, "Been there, done that". We have a lot of other places we want to see before we hit the nursing home.
Murphy SidingMy question about marijuana is, if it's a good medicine for treating some things- which it seems to be- why can't it be administered in a pill or shot form, like other drugs? It seems like anyone who has ever tried to justify the need to smoke the product in order to get the correct benefits was someone who was smoking it recreationaly.
Good question. Mayo Clinic gives the answers. Used for a variety of conditions. It's available in alternative forms including pills.
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/medical-marijuana/art-20137855
Back to the so-called irony. While tobacco has no medical usage, cannabis products do. Mayo Clinic seems to recognize this. So there is nothing ironic about the campaign against tobacco while cannabis has been legalized in many states for retail in regulated outlets for adults.
York1I love Vegas. We spent several days walking the city, seeing the sights, and eating at great restaurants.
Hey, if you've been and enjoyed yourself that's all that matters.
charlie hebdo Back to the so-called irony. While tobacco has no medical usage, cannabis products do. Mayo Clinic seems to recognize this. So there is nothing ironic about the campaign against tobacco while cannabis has been legalized in many states for retail in regulated outlets for adults.
As pointed out, pot can be given in non smoked ways. According to the CDC, smoking weed has many of the same negative heath effects as smoking tobacco. By legalizing the Cheech and Chong method, states have undid years and millions of dollars of work in anti smoking campaigns. Hence the irony.
https://www.cdc.gov/marijuana/health-effects/lung-health.html
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irony
charlie hebdo Murphy Siding My question about marijuana is, if it's a good medicine for treating some things- which it seems to be- why can't it be administered in a pill or shot form, like other drugs? It seems like anyone who has ever tried to justify the need to smoke the product in order to get the correct benefits was someone who was smoking it recreationaly. Good question. Mayo Clinic gives the answers. Used for a variety of conditions. It's available in alternative forms including pills. https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/consumer-health/in-depth/medical-marijuana/art-20137855
Murphy Siding My question about marijuana is, if it's a good medicine for treating some things- which it seems to be- why can't it be administered in a pill or shot form, like other drugs? It seems like anyone who has ever tried to justify the need to smoke the product in order to get the correct benefits was someone who was smoking it recreationaly.
Chicken/egg. Troubled people continue to have problems, possibly worsened by drugs, especially opiates meth and coke.
charlie hebdo Chicken/egg. Troubled people continue to have problems, possibly worsened by drugs, especially opiates meth and coke.
I've long been of the opinion that some people are risk takers. Not in the financial sense of the term, although there may be something to that, but in the participation in dangerous activities like smoking, alcohol, drugs, physical activities, etc.
Some people can handle such activities, some can't. It can be hard to understand why one person can smoke two packs a day and drink half a bottle of whiskey for a nightcap, yet live to be 100, while a non-smoker dies at 35 of lung cancer and a moderate drinker suffers the worst alcohol has to offer.
BackshopI read a quote quite awhile ago that has a lot of truth to it. "Poor people stay poor by acting like they're rich. Rich people stay rich by acting like they're poor". We all know people that make the same as us, or less, but have nicer cars, bigger houses and every new toy and gadget that comes out. Yet, they don't have an emergency fund and hardly contribute to their retirement plan.
I didn't have a penny saved at 37, maxed out my 401k for almost 20 years and made sacrifices and have over a million saved now plus pension. I will retire probably with over 2 million plus pension. I am not paid excessively.
The problems are two fold in the United States. People on a tight budget do not want to take any smidgen of risk with their investments.....which of course means they will always be restricted to low returns on the stock market if they get any decent returns at all. Second is most people have no clue on the time value of money or how to invest or spot a bargain priced stock. A lot put their faith in targeted funds that invest by your age group. While better than not investing, these funds typically fall short by 10-15 points per year of growth.
CMStPnP Second is most people have no clue on the time value of money or how to invest or spot a bargain priced stock.
I would opine that most people don't want to take the time and effort to actively invest. Stuffing money in a sock under the mattress is almost too labor intensive.
Some form of automatic deduction is more like it, but even that takes a bit of foresight. A twenty year old isn't thinking of what his/her needs will be fifty years hence. Even $10 every two weeks will turn into $13,000 in that time, interest, etc, notwithstanding. That twenty year old is thinking more about the couple of six packs the $10 will buy...
My wife and I mainly invested in mutual funds. One of my favorites for those who don't want to do a lot of research is the Fidelity Four-in-One Index Fund. It's composed of their S&P500, Extended Market, Foreign and US Bond Index Funds. It's rated 5 Stars by Morningstar.
tree68I've long been of the opinion that some people are risk takers.
Extreme sports are a good example of that.
Murphy Siding charlie hebdo Chicken/egg. Troubled people continue to have problems, possibly worsened by drugs, especially opiates meth and coke. And alcohol.
And alcohol.
Absolutely! Combine predisposing factors with stress and you have alcohol abuse/dependence, a much bigger killer than most/all drugs, plus a disrupting impact on those in the life of the alcoholic.
Returning to the aftermath of PEB250: This article ran in Railway Age on the 24th:
https://www.railwayage.com/news/peb-250-correcting-misinformation-in-labor-ranks/?utm_source=&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=34424
(I did not edit the link because of the seemingly fascinating information in the metadata)
I was amused at the numbers given for "applicants" to new railroad positions. A far better statistic would involve, first, how the candidates are selected for hire; second, how many of them are making it through orientation and training; third, how many are remaining past some sensible benchmark, say 3 years' employment.
Add to it: What was the voluntary quit rate a few years ago? Let's compare apples to apples.
What? We're discussing railroad related items relevant to the thread?! Is that allowed?
The correction about health care is from the unions.
The "correction" about resignations and hiring is from the carriers.
We've had a few leave with enough time in that they don't usually leave voluntarily. And a good portion of the involuntary departures seem to get back with back pay. It's not surprising those that leave, really those that don't come back when recalled, who are low on the roster the way they are furloughed and recalled.
It used to be you would be furloughed the first few years, the time cut off being shorter each period. Now it seems to be the opposite. They cut people at the slightest hint of a slack period and when things pick up again, by the time they decide to recall things are starting to slow down again. Couple that with the new attendence policies and it's no wonder people don't come back, or even try to hire on in the first place.
As I said, we've had a few leave with significant time in. We've had a bit of that before so I can't say if the current trend in my area is higher than usual or not. Include in the past that some of those who've left may have been involuntary and I didn't hear the reason. With a large seniority district it's easy to lose track of people who work out of other terminals.
I'm not sure how they are figuring the 42 applicants for every opening. Of course they're using an average and I would guess that means they're manipulating them to some extent. When I hired out you registered through the state job service and were notified of when hiring sessions were going to be held. Now I think they first have applicants fill out a preliminary application on the railroad's website. Then the railroad notifies them of hiring sessions.
In any case when I hired out (1998) until the last big hirings about 8 or so years ago, they would have about 20 to 30 show up per day, 3 or 4 days a week. Out of those applicants they would get a new hire class of about 15. When I hired out, they were running hiring sessions almost weekly. Towards the end the sessions would only be one or two weeks, but they still had a large turnout.
One of the last sessions that I know of, they held one weekly session, only 10 people showed up over the entire week. I don't know if all 10 were offered jobs or not.
I do know that they were allowing people to hire out in one area and once done with training move to another area. Areas being seniority districts. A couple of new hires training on our district ultimately took seniority on a different district.
I'm late to the thread, but ...
Anecdotal:
My friend retired from BNSF after 42 years. He was in ROW work. He said he hated every minute of it.
But, from him: With only a high school diploma, he drew a salary, along with benefits, that was on par with or beat many other jobs that required college degrees.
Now, he is drawing a great pension and his wife, who didn't work, is getting in addition an amount equal to about half his pension. He is enjoying a great retirement.
He said it was worth it.
York1He said it was worth it.
Little comfort to those with 2 decades+ left to work.
zugmann York1 He said it was worth it.
York1 He said it was worth it.
From all that I read things have deteriorated significantly over the past decade. Use to be one actually looked forward to working on the RR or, at least, the benefits and environment were tolerable. I don't regret 40+ years of service in the operating dept. at all, but I got out of train service right away. Imagine the 16 hour law that was the routine when I was a pup. Twelve hours of rock around the clock isn't much better. Working conditions became progressively more difficult and dysfunctional following the 90s mergers and seem to have "progressed" in inverse proportion to the corporate ballyhoo about being the best and all that related blather. My sympathies are with the rank and file given how distant and out-of-touch upper management has proven itself (unless you are all for short-term myopia). Seems the Class 1s are building themselves into a ditch. It will be someone else's fault, of course. No accountability, only hubris.
York1 zugmann York1 He said it was worth it.
The two decades he worked through had much better 'prospects' entering than does the present outlook for the next two decades. The carriers have been doing everything possible to sabatoge Railroad Retirement as well as the working enviornment of the railroads.
What are the unions doing while this is going on?
York1At one time, he had 2 decades+ left to work, he stuck it out, and he feels he is now being rewarded for the decision.
RR was a different beast just 5 years ago, nevermind 20.
PennsyBoomerSeems the Class 1s are building themselves into a ditch
None of us want to see this happen, but you know what? If the Class 1's collapse due to their own intransigence and inertia someone will be waiting in the wings to pick up the pieces, especially if those someones think railroading is a viable industry and there's money to be made in it by those who understand the business. Railroading here in the US may just devolve into what it was before the era of mega-mergers.
One thing I don't want to hear is the Class 1's singing the "Too Big To Fail!" song. I've said it before and I'll say it now, if you're too big to fail then you're too big.
Too big to fail can also mean too big to succeed when you come down to it.
zugmann York1 At one time, he had 2 decades+ left to work, he stuck it out, and he feels he is now being rewarded for the decision. RR was a different beast just 5 years ago, nevermind 20.
York1 At one time, he had 2 decades+ left to work, he stuck it out, and he feels he is now being rewarded for the decision.
Glad I retired before PSR mania hit CSX and the rest of the US Class 1's.
From several FB and other groups I am a part of now since my new boss has extensive dealings with the railroads and we now deal directly with NS CSX UP KCS BNSF CN and CP in our operations all over the USA and into Canada now. I can tell you this about what I am hearing from our railroad side of operations what the boys there hear from crews that service us. The Class 1s have managed to tick off about every single craft and operations personal they have with that single sentance. I ran into a friend of mine a section worker for the BNSF and he has voted to Strike and not approve the PEB contract and everyone he has talked to in his local did the same. I was down at the SIT yard taking care of a driver emergency last night and our local was dropping off some cars and asked the crew what they thought all they said is be glad your owner has ordered extra cars before the cooling off period is over as they are going to walk off as soon as possible. They are tired of being treated like crap and it is nationwide. Even if they are ordered back close to 80% are saying from what they have heard are going to refuse to go back even if Congress ordered them back saying why WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR PROFITS. They are willing to risk their jobs to make a statement that shakes the industry to the core right now.
Just curious, I have read that contracts often include back pay, for any raises for the time worked after the old contract expired, do employees that have left during the period without a contract, get the back pay for their time without a contract?
If an employee works for 6 months after the contract expires are they paid back pay?
If they work 2.5 years without a contract do they get back pay?
what about furloughed, or furloughed then not returned?
is there a criteria for determining back pay, or if you leave the day before the contract settlement, you are just SOL?
If there is no back pay for anyone leaving for any reason, I can understand (not to be confused with AGREEING With) the carriers delaying the contract settlement as long as possibl, back pay can add up to a very sizable amount
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Shadow the Cats owner Even if they are ordered back close to 80% are saying from what they have heard are going to refuse to go back even if Congress ordered them back saying why WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR PROFITS. They are willing to risk their jobs to make a statement that shakes the industry to the core right now.
Sure they are.
The mortgage/truck/alimony payments will still be due. You really think 80% are going to walk off? That's all locker room/reddit talk.
Shadow the Cats ownerThey are willing to risk their jobs to make a statement that shakes the industry to the core right now.
Wanna bet??
They only have to stay out long enough to shake up the proper people...
If a majority accept a contract, or one is imposed by congressional action, those unhappy have two options. Accept it or quit.
Taking part in an illegal job action could open up those participating to law suits from the carriers. That's unlikely, but possible. Our union leadership is very careful to distance themselves from such talk because they are easier targets. However they've cautioned us that rank and file members, especially those who have been shooting off their mouths on social media, could conceivably be targeted.
In the hours before the strike deadline, I noticed the number of people marking off the boards had gone up. It was stressed that doing so could be construed has being an illegal job action. In reality, I think most were afraid of going to work and getting stuck at the away from home terminal. (We did have plans to get those away from home back, but depending on how may were there could've taken some time.)
As Zug mentioned, there's a lot of talk but I believe reality would rear it's ugly head for the vast majority.
nevermind.
challenger3980Just curious, I have read that contracts often include back pay, for any raises for the time worked after the old contract expired, do employees that have left during the period without a contract, get the back pay for their time without a contract?
Reading through the tentative agreement a bit.
You only qualify for backpay if you are working for the carrier on the date of ratification for the new contract. Unless you died or retired since 2020.
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