Flintlock76 Overmod This reminded me of a quote from PC Magazine's John Dvorak, a kind of computer-guy version of Kneiling, who noted that the advent of the 'paperless office' was a clear call to go out and invest in a paper mill... Pretty good advice, as I understand it the paper mills that converted to cardboard boxes are doing pretty well in this "order-on-line" age. All that stuff ordered from Amazon, Wayfair, and others has to be shipped in something. Oh, take it from me, the paperless office doesn't exist, at least not when I retired in 2018. I doubt things have changed much.
Overmod This reminded me of a quote from PC Magazine's John Dvorak, a kind of computer-guy version of Kneiling, who noted that the advent of the 'paperless office' was a clear call to go out and invest in a paper mill...
Pretty good advice, as I understand it the paper mills that converted to cardboard boxes are doing pretty well in this "order-on-line" age. All that stuff ordered from Amazon, Wayfair, and others has to be shipped in something.
Oh, take it from me, the paperless office doesn't exist, at least not when I retired in 2018. I doubt things have changed much.
When I was working in CCSI (Chessie Computer Services Inc.) the big push was to create and develop the programs and processes for CSX, as a transportation company, to GO PAPERLESS.
The reality is - the world will never be paperless. Putting all information in digital format to only be displayed on electronic display devices as manipulation of the devices do not supply the utility that paper does for the ultimate users of the data being presented.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
OvermodThis reminded me of a quote from PC Magazine's John Dvorak, a kind of computer-guy version of Kneiling, who noted that the advent of the 'paperless office' was a clear call to go out and invest in a paper mill...
HillyardAll, that is a very moving video. BaltACD, Not sure I agree with Euclid's post. Usually I just browse the forum. However, I have to respond. "It has been explained in the over 22K post I have made in the last 19 years. Do your research." Your post seems snippy and arrogant following your earlier one quoted below. You must have been having a bad day.-- Again, you display your lack of understanding of railroads and their employment issues - both from the top down and the bottom up. Please explain what you think I am not understanding.
that is a very moving video.
BaltACD,
Not sure I agree with Euclid's post.
Usually I just browse the forum. However, I have to respond.
"It has been explained in the over 22K post I have made in the last 19 years. Do your research."
Your post seems snippy and arrogant following your earlier one quoted below. You must have been having a bad day.--
Again, you display your lack of understanding of railroads and their employment issues - both from the top down and the bottom up. Please explain what you think I am not understanding.
Again, you display your lack of understanding of railroads and their employment issues - both from the top down and the bottom up.
Please explain what you think I am not understanding.
Rejoice - Snark Week is fast approaching!
All,
Your post seems snippy and arrogant following your earlier one quoted below. You must have been having a bad day.
--
Your problem - not mine!
azrailThe solution to labor shortages is unfortunately, automation.
We have had extensive discussions on further 'automation' of T&E. Imagine the fun when, not if, the automated control fails. Or when a knuckle fails on a bridge or heavily-wooded country. You may have higher cost for the emergency response than you had with regular wages (the whole 'call' system scheme being to reduce the number of actual payable hours as low as possible...)
What a nightmare. When everything is summed up it seems railroading is designed to create chaos rather than order.
It took me about 90 minutes to post my reply. I kept getting a 403 Forbidden message. Finally went through.
Jeff
samfp1943 Response to Tree's comment of last evening [Posted by tree68 on Sunday, July 10, 2022 10:08 PM] Apparently the systyem gitched me out? showed aain this AM? ] Just watched the OP's Video....As a long time railfan and interested observer who has known many railroad employees down through a number pof years. I am surprised that this situation has gone on without a 'Contract' fpr so long. Where is the dues paying member's Union leadership? It certainly seems as if the Union's are not giving the dues paying membership, any value for their dues? What is the deal with that? Just askin'
Response to Tree's comment of last evening [Posted by tree68 on Sunday, July 10, 2022 10:08 PM] Apparently the systyem gitched me out? showed aain this AM? ]
Just watched the OP's Video....As a long time railfan and interested observer who has known many railroad employees down through a number pof years. I am surprised that this situation has gone on without a 'Contract' fpr so long.
Where is the dues paying member's Union leadership? It certainly seems as if the Union's are not giving the dues paying membership, any value for their dues?
What is the deal with that? Just askin'
The unions can do nothing about the attendence policies. First, although contracts mention being allowed a "reasonable" time off, that's a vague, undefined term. Second the policies are just that, company policies that can (and do from time to tome) change. The BNSF went from an appearently liberal time off policy to a rather draconian one. (Although I don't know the details, BN did something like that in the early 1990s.) The courts have deemed that attendence policies are a minor dispute under the RLA. One that the unions can strike over.
The RLA, Railway Labor Act, governs railroad (and airline) labor contracts. There is a process that must be followed before a strike can be called. The RLA is designed to get to contract agreements without strikes or lock outs.
Railroad labor contracts never end like in other industries. When they reach the end of the term, they automatically extend until another one takes effect. Pay rates stay static during the extension. New pay rates are retroactive (usually) and employees get back pay. The status quo for the rest of the contract also is maintained.
Before a contract's term ends, both sides serve "section 6" notices for what each side wants in the next contract. They start negotiating from there. There is no time limit for how long negotiations take. Eventually when the sides can't come to terms, they go into mediation. This was done last January. Last month, the unions asked to be released from mediation. Binding Arbitraition is offered. If accepted, a panel is chosen. So many picked by each side plus neutrals. This time, the unions rejected the offer and where released from mediation. This starts the first 30 day cooling off period. This expires July 17th. Either side can take steps for "self-help." That is, strike or lock out.
Before the end of the cooling off period, the President can appoint a PEB, Presidential Emergency Board. So far one has not been appointed, but it sounds like one is in the works. Once the PEB is set, it has 30 days (which can be extended by agreement of both parties. This is another cooling off period. Once the the PEB issues it's recommendations, the final 30 day cooling off period begins. At any point, both sides could come to mutual agreement on a contract. I doubt this will, or even could happen at this time.
Once the final cooling off period ends, the RLA has run it's course. Either side can resort to self-help, a strike or lock out. Then congress can become involved. Congress' involvement is authorized by the commerce clause of the Constitution. They can legislate what the contract will be. They can impose the PEB's recommendations, pick parts, even offer amendments that in effect rewrite a contract. Normally they just impose the PEB recommendation.
The unions are betting on a better deal from a Democratic PEB and congress. That's a crap shoot at best. It's an election year and that involves politics. Right now, July 17 is the first chance for a strike. More realistcally, sometime in the later part of September is the best chance for a strike and/or lock out.
The solution to labor shortages is unfortunately, automation.
n012944Those same people that choose "quality of life" over a higher wage are often the same ones who complain about being priced out of the housing market......Hmm
What's the point in having a house if you're never home to see it?
This isn't 1890 anymore. The railroads can't just toss an extra $100 at the workers to shut them up. People don't want to spend their entire lives working increasingly lousier jobs.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
SD70Dude n012944 Those same people that choose "quality of life" over a higher wage are often the same ones who complain about being priced out of the housing market......Hmm Typical management response. Is it really too much to ask for both? I mean, our society did have that for most of the post WWII era......
n012944 Those same people that choose "quality of life" over a higher wage are often the same ones who complain about being priced out of the housing market......Hmm
Those same people that choose "quality of life" over a higher wage are often the same ones who complain about being priced out of the housing market......Hmm
Typical management response. Is it really too much to ask for both?
I mean, our society did have that for most of the post WWII era......
Even after WW II a 'living' wage and entry into the housing market was not all that easy to come by. My Dad hired out in 1937 and worked his way through a series of positions to reach the position of Asst. Terminal Superintendent in Baltimore before he felt 'comfortable' in purchasing a home in 1954. Even thereafter, with subsequent promotions and transfers our residences were rentals in Garrett, IN, Stow, OH and Washington, IN until he felt confident enough to purchase a property in Bethel Park, PA in 1967 which he occupied at the time of his forced retirement.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Electroliner 1935 To Euclid, At some wage, people still want to have a life. Care for their family, care for them selves and they can reach a point where that is more important that the money.
To Euclid,
At some wage, people still want to have a life. Care for their family, care for them selves and they can reach a point where that is more important that the money.
An "expensive model collector"
rrnut282I still say they need to weld the bathroom doors shut in the ivory towers of railroadom and hand out baggies with serial numbers and see who comes to work the next day.
I believe that was the NS way of doing things. Not the industry as a whole.
Ulrich At least one can't blame PSR on BNSF's predicament as they are the only holdout. But it sure looks serious..
At least one can't blame PSR on BNSF's predicament as they are the only holdout. But it sure looks serious..
BNSF has been doing PSR, too. They just don't call it PSR.
EuclidIf working conditions are intolerable, and neither management nor the union will improve them; then the only solution is to quit the job.
The union is trying to improve them somewhat. Hence why we are in the cooling off period waiting to see if Pres. Biden will implement a PEB.
The RR's solution will not be to increase wages (or improve working conditions - funny how that always gets forgotten by a few on here) but to cry and beg congress to allow one-man crews. That's been the goal from the beginning. ALthough at this rate, I don't know if they will be able to even have enough guys in the future for that. Well, I guess we can go for the bigger goal of no-man crews. Happy stockholders!
I still say they need to weld the bathroom doors shut in the ivory towers of railroadom and hand out baggies with serial numbers and see who comes to work the next day.
Electroliner 1935To Euclid, At some wage, people still want to have a life. Care for their family, care for them selves and they can reach a point where that is more important that the money. It appears to me that the Railroad has cut (and pandemic has also reduced) their number of employees to the point that they have too few to provide for the operation of the trains and also allow for the personal time employees. need/desire to have a satisfactory life. The BNSF HiVis policy was the managment attempt to coerce the employees to be available more than they were and, IN MY OPINION, they over reached. The Railroad has dragged its feet on negotiating a new contract, and has unilateraly imposed the HiVis policy. Enough was enough and so the employees said so. Would you work the hours that the RR is demanding on the terms they are imposing. I suspect not. I hope BNSF remembers the old saying, "You can lead the horse to water but you can't make him drink." I hate to think what this is going to do to the logistics in this country and the container gridlock that it is causing.
At some wage, people still want to have a life. Care for their family, care for them selves and they can reach a point where that is more important that the money. It appears to me that the Railroad has cut (and pandemic has also reduced) their number of employees to the point that they have too few to provide for the operation of the trains and also allow for the personal time employees. need/desire to have a satisfactory life. The BNSF HiVis policy was the managment attempt to coerce the employees to be available more than they were and, IN MY OPINION, they over reached. The Railroad has dragged its feet on negotiating a new contract, and has unilateraly imposed the HiVis policy. Enough was enough and so the employees said so.
Would you work the hours that the RR is demanding on the terms they are imposing. I suspect not.
I hope BNSF remembers the old saying, "You can lead the horse to water but you can't make him drink." I hate to think what this is going to do to the logistics in this country and the container gridlock that it is causing.
Warren Buffet should be made to live under the Hi-Vis attendance policy.
Euclid BaltACD Euclid If working conditions are intolerable, and neither management nor the union will improve them; then the only solution is to quit the job. This will cause a shortage of labor, and the railroads will attempt to hire more. If they cannot higher enough, it will be a robust enough sampling to prove that wages are too low. So the only solution to not being able to hire sufficient labor is to raise wages. The industry will not have a choice unless U.S. the labor pool somehow increases and needs to compete for jobs. However, there are present factors that do point to that outcome as we move forward. Again, you display your lack of understanding of railroads and their employment issues - both from the top down and the bottom up. Please explain what you think I am not understanding.
BaltACD Euclid If working conditions are intolerable, and neither management nor the union will improve them; then the only solution is to quit the job. This will cause a shortage of labor, and the railroads will attempt to hire more. If they cannot higher enough, it will be a robust enough sampling to prove that wages are too low. So the only solution to not being able to hire sufficient labor is to raise wages. The industry will not have a choice unless U.S. the labor pool somehow increases and needs to compete for jobs. However, there are present factors that do point to that outcome as we move forward. Again, you display your lack of understanding of railroads and their employment issues - both from the top down and the bottom up.
Euclid If working conditions are intolerable, and neither management nor the union will improve them; then the only solution is to quit the job. This will cause a shortage of labor, and the railroads will attempt to hire more. If they cannot higher enough, it will be a robust enough sampling to prove that wages are too low. So the only solution to not being able to hire sufficient labor is to raise wages. The industry will not have a choice unless U.S. the labor pool somehow increases and needs to compete for jobs. However, there are present factors that do point to that outcome as we move forward.
Euclid... I absolutely knew that would be your response. I just asked a rhetorical question to prove it. Nice job.
I absolutely knew that would be your response. I just asked a rhetorical question to prove it. Nice job.
It has been explained in the over 22K post I have made in the last 19 years. Do your research.
BaltACD Euclid BaltACD Euclid If working conditions are intolerable, and neither management nor the union will improve them; then the only solution is to quit the job. This will cause a shortage of labor, and the railroads will attempt to hire more. If they cannot higher enough, it will be a robust enough sampling to prove that wages are too low. So the only solution to not being able to hire sufficient labor is to raise wages. The industry will not have a choice unless U.S. the labor pool somehow increases and needs to compete for jobs. However, there are present factors that do point to that outcome as we move forward. Again, you display your lack of understanding of railroads and their employment issues - both from the top down and the bottom up. Please explain what you think I am not understanding. Your problem - not mine!
Can someone (maybe a BNSF employee on this forum) explain the "Hi-Viz" policy and how the point system works? It sounds like employees are having to pay the company back for time they take off. In other words, are they being penalized monetarily for taking time off?
EuclidIf working conditions are intolerable, and neither management nor the union will improve them; then the only solution is to quit the job. This will cause a shortage of labor, and the railroads will attempt to hire more. If they cannot higher enough, it will be a robust enough sampling to prove that wages are too low. So the only solution to not being able to hire sufficient labor is to raise wages. The industry will not have a choice unless U.S. the labor pool somehow increases and needs to compete for jobs. However, there are present factors that do point to that outcome as we move forward.
Electroliner 1935The Oligarchs have taken over the C suite and want the peons to do their wishes
The whiz kids with heads full of pretty theorys but no knowledge of people or how the real world operates.
It reminds me of the gag gravestone someone set up at The Basic School (For Marine Officers) years ago:
"Here lie the bones of Lieutenant Jones who attended this institution."
"He died one night in a fire-fight while applying the School Solution."
BaltACD samfp1943 Just watched the OP's Video....As a long time railfan and interested observer who has known many railroad employees down through a number pof years. I am surprised that this situation has gone on without a 'Contract' fpr so long. Where is the dues paying member's Union leadership? It certainly seems as if the Union's are not giving the dues paying membership, any value for their dues? What is the deal with that? Just askin' Unions call for strikes - normally Presidential actions will be initiated at the carriers request and the strike will be legally enjoined from happening - Security Interestes of the Country. Sometimes carrier(s) may get actually struck for periods of less than a day. The FEC broke away from the National bargining council in 1963 and a strike commenced from 1963 to 1977 concerning staffing of trains.
samfp1943 Just watched the OP's Video....As a long time railfan and interested observer who has known many railroad employees down through a number pof years. I am surprised that this situation has gone on without a 'Contract' fpr so long. Where is the dues paying member's Union leadership? It certainly seems as if the Union's are not giving the dues paying membership, any value for their dues? What is the deal with that? Just askin'
Unions call for strikes - normally Presidential actions will be initiated at the carriers request and the strike will be legally enjoined from happening - Security Interestes of the Country.
Sometimes carrier(s) may get actually struck for periods of less than a day.
The FEC broke away from the National bargining council in 1963 and a strike commenced from 1963 to 1977 concerning staffing of trains.
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