This one is from my hubby directly. He was driving for a now bought out carrier in Iowa in 98. The carrier was named Florilli out of West Liberty IA. He was in the yard with an OOS truck it had been red tagged by the shop itself for massive issues namely a massive exhaust leak and fuel and oil leaks. He was also out of hours in his logbook sitting on 70 in his 8 days.
Well that day he was there here comes the FMCSA doing a no notice audit of the company. His dispatcher screamed for him to get off the yard and get to Chicago ASAP. Hubby rightfully refused saying no hours and OOS truck. Dispatcher said move it or I will starve you out of here. Now my hubby is standing in the shop with a Federal inspector behind him and State DOT officer behind him both going what is this carrier trying to hide from us. They go we are both inspecting his truck before he does ANYTHING sir. State DOT officer does a complete inspection tells the Federal officer that if they try to order him off again there were 20 different OOS violations on this truck. Federal inspector is inside the cab looking at my hubby's logbook and then goes since you have been threatened by your dispatch anything you tell us is protected by the whistleblower act. Anything you want to show us. Hubby goes I am out of here in less than a month so yep. Hands her the satalite system goes anything in caps is from the carrier anything I sent is in lower case. She sees message after message from the dispatcher ordering him to drive over the HOS by requiring 700+ mile days in a 68 MPH truck. She's like thank you sir.
The dispatcher was not fired instead PROMOTED why well the Bosses daughter could not marry an unemployed dispatcher so they made him VP of Operations. Yep your reading that right they made the man that cost the carrier 10 years of almost non stop DOT harrassment the VP of Operations because he knocked up the Bosses Daughter. Talk about failing upwards at a carrier.
Overmod BaltACD As in anything - cream rises to the top. And so does scum.
BaltACD As in anything - cream rises to the top.
And so does scum.
If you are dealing with septic tanks - yes.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACDAs in anything - cream rises to the top.
jeffhergertThe FRA's position has been if a company officer orders you to do something, even if in violation of regulations, to follow the orders given.
That might go a long way to explain those N-S derailments where they put the light cars up front by the power and the heavy cars at the rear.
I learned playing with Lionels years ago that's not a good idea. HO guys would say the same.
Hey I still play with Lionels and won't do that.
Flintlock76 BaltACD Malicious Compliance is following orders you know to be wrong, that is not punishable. I can't speak for the railroads, but the "I was just following orders!" excuse won't get you out of trouble at a military court-martial. You or the guy who gave them.
BaltACD Malicious Compliance is following orders you know to be wrong, that is not punishable.
I can't speak for the railroads, but the "I was just following orders!" excuse won't get you out of trouble at a military court-martial. You or the guy who gave them.
The FRA's position has been if a company officer orders you to do something, even if in violation of regulations, to follow the orders given. The FRA can't get an insubordination charge overturned, but they can fine the railroad for any violations steming from that order. Always get time and initials.
For some things, we now have a "Good Faith Challenge" process. The only problem is that the ultimate arbitraitor is a higher up company officer. Unless the officer issuing the questionable order is not popular with his/her superiors, I have my doubts that the original officer will be overruled.
49 CFR § 218.97 - Good faith challenge procedures. | CFR | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute (cornell.edu)
Reading the actual law, it seems like it could cover more than what our rule book says it covers. Interpretation is everything.
Jeff
PS. Regarding Malicious Compliance. Some years back, an arbitraitor upheld discipline for a Norfolk Southern engineer. He had been disciplined for going too slow while moving at restricted speed.
BaltACD Get executed by the Officer that gave the illegal order for not complying with the order.
Maybe in the SS, but they've been out of business for years.
ie. Get executed by the Officer that gave the illegal order for not complying with the order. Or get executed by the Court Martial for doing as ordered. A genuine lose-lose situation.
zugmann BaltACD Malicious Compliance is following orders you know to be wrong, that is not punishable. Actually, it is.
Actually, it is.
Only time in my experience - President of the company's son, was Trainmaster at a location - Ordered a crew to make a 'flying switch' to get cars behind the engine, infront of the engine by having the cars go down a lead that had tank cars hooked up in a customers facility. Crewmen disagreed that that was the move to be made, but rather than face Insubordination charges they complied. There wasn't sufficient braking power in the cut of cars to stop them before they impacted the hooked up tank cars in the customer facility. President's son charged them with failure to control the movement.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
jeffhergert... This corridor manager was told the trains wouldn't fit. That's when he said you need to think outside the box. I don't believe there was any place either train could "double over" to clear. Jeff
This corridor manager was told the trains wouldn't fit. That's when he said you need to think outside the box. I don't believe there was any place either train could "double over" to clear.
One statement no Dispatcher ever wants to utter, "What do you mean you don't fit?" However, when you get a direct 'order' from a superior, all bets are off. To do other than what the Supervisor specifically instructed is 'Insubordination' and punisable. Malicious Compliance is following orders you know to be wrong, that is not punishable.
BaltACD jeffhergert BaltACD SD70Dude A good number of our Dispatchers could also be easily mistaken for managers at times........ Why, because they expect you to do your job? I was thinking more of the ones who always have a arrogant, condescending attitude and talk down to crews on the radio. Or those who just want to dictate the plan and never ask for our opinion or advice in tough or unusual situations, or when they are working a territory they are not familiar with. This is definitely a two-way street, there are plenty of conductors and engineers who think they could do a better job and aren't afraid to 'inform' the dispatcher of their opinion. One thing that can't be overlooked - Dispatchers are people. People all have different viewpoints in seeing what a problem is and how to solve that problem. there are two or more political parties in the civic lives of our countries - each offering different views on what the problems are and what the solutions to those problems are. There are Dispachers that solicit ideas from those they supervise; there are Dispatchers that don't and feel the know all they need to know about what they are facing on a daily basis. There are Dispatchers that fall in between the extremes. Dispatchers are people, and like all people vary greatly. Sometimes it's not the dispatcher, but their boss sitting behind the trick dispatcher. I'm thinking of one I just heard a few days ago who told the trick dispatcher to "think outside of the box" when telling him to set up a meet at a CTC siding between two trains. Neither of which fit in the siding. He was the trick dispatcher's boss, but I don't believe ever sat in the actual chair. That's the trouble with our's being company officers. Instead of a career path within the dispatching sphere, people go in and out as they rise up the ladder. Jeff I had supervisors who thought that because the sidings showed being the same size on the model board representation that the sidings were the same size in the field. On the model board representation a 10K foot siding looks the same as a 3K foot siding. Such a misunderstanding can create grevious decisions by the unknowing with more rank than brains. Had a supervisor prioritize three auto rack trains down the W&A into Atlanta despite the trains would be blocking out operations at Atlanta because those particular trains had Assigned crews with a specified on duty time. With the priority the trains would be sitting in Atlanta for 4 to 5 hours - using track space that other trains needed. Note - these supervisors had had their position for a number of years.
jeffhergert BaltACD SD70Dude A good number of our Dispatchers could also be easily mistaken for managers at times........ Why, because they expect you to do your job? I was thinking more of the ones who always have a arrogant, condescending attitude and talk down to crews on the radio. Or those who just want to dictate the plan and never ask for our opinion or advice in tough or unusual situations, or when they are working a territory they are not familiar with. This is definitely a two-way street, there are plenty of conductors and engineers who think they could do a better job and aren't afraid to 'inform' the dispatcher of their opinion. One thing that can't be overlooked - Dispatchers are people. People all have different viewpoints in seeing what a problem is and how to solve that problem. there are two or more political parties in the civic lives of our countries - each offering different views on what the problems are and what the solutions to those problems are. There are Dispachers that solicit ideas from those they supervise; there are Dispatchers that don't and feel the know all they need to know about what they are facing on a daily basis. There are Dispatchers that fall in between the extremes. Dispatchers are people, and like all people vary greatly. Sometimes it's not the dispatcher, but their boss sitting behind the trick dispatcher. I'm thinking of one I just heard a few days ago who told the trick dispatcher to "think outside of the box" when telling him to set up a meet at a CTC siding between two trains. Neither of which fit in the siding. He was the trick dispatcher's boss, but I don't believe ever sat in the actual chair. That's the trouble with our's being company officers. Instead of a career path within the dispatching sphere, people go in and out as they rise up the ladder. Jeff
BaltACD SD70Dude A good number of our Dispatchers could also be easily mistaken for managers at times........ Why, because they expect you to do your job? I was thinking more of the ones who always have a arrogant, condescending attitude and talk down to crews on the radio. Or those who just want to dictate the plan and never ask for our opinion or advice in tough or unusual situations, or when they are working a territory they are not familiar with. This is definitely a two-way street, there are plenty of conductors and engineers who think they could do a better job and aren't afraid to 'inform' the dispatcher of their opinion. One thing that can't be overlooked - Dispatchers are people. People all have different viewpoints in seeing what a problem is and how to solve that problem. there are two or more political parties in the civic lives of our countries - each offering different views on what the problems are and what the solutions to those problems are. There are Dispachers that solicit ideas from those they supervise; there are Dispatchers that don't and feel the know all they need to know about what they are facing on a daily basis. There are Dispatchers that fall in between the extremes. Dispatchers are people, and like all people vary greatly.
SD70Dude A good number of our Dispatchers could also be easily mistaken for managers at times........ Why, because they expect you to do your job? I was thinking more of the ones who always have a arrogant, condescending attitude and talk down to crews on the radio. Or those who just want to dictate the plan and never ask for our opinion or advice in tough or unusual situations, or when they are working a territory they are not familiar with. This is definitely a two-way street, there are plenty of conductors and engineers who think they could do a better job and aren't afraid to 'inform' the dispatcher of their opinion.
A good number of our Dispatchers could also be easily mistaken for managers at times........ Why, because they expect you to do your job?
A good number of our Dispatchers could also be easily mistaken for managers at times........
Why, because they expect you to do your job?
I was thinking more of the ones who always have a arrogant, condescending attitude and talk down to crews on the radio. Or those who just want to dictate the plan and never ask for our opinion or advice in tough or unusual situations, or when they are working a territory they are not familiar with.
This is definitely a two-way street, there are plenty of conductors and engineers who think they could do a better job and aren't afraid to 'inform' the dispatcher of their opinion.
One thing that can't be overlooked - Dispatchers are people. People all have different viewpoints in seeing what a problem is and how to solve that problem. there are two or more political parties in the civic lives of our countries - each offering different views on what the problems are and what the solutions to those problems are.
There are Dispachers that solicit ideas from those they supervise; there are Dispatchers that don't and feel the know all they need to know about what they are facing on a daily basis. There are Dispatchers that fall in between the extremes. Dispatchers are people, and like all people vary greatly.
Sometimes it's not the dispatcher, but their boss sitting behind the trick dispatcher.
I'm thinking of one I just heard a few days ago who told the trick dispatcher to "think outside of the box" when telling him to set up a meet at a CTC siding between two trains. Neither of which fit in the siding. He was the trick dispatcher's boss, but I don't believe ever sat in the actual chair.
That's the trouble with our's being company officers. Instead of a career path within the dispatching sphere, people go in and out as they rise up the ladder.
I had supervisors who thought that because the sidings showed being the same size on the model board representation that the sidings were the same size in the field. On the model board representation a 10K foot siding looks the same as a 3K foot siding. Such a misunderstanding can create grevious decisions by the unknowing with more rank than brains.
Had a supervisor prioritize three auto rack trains down the W&A into Atlanta despite the trains would be blocking out operations at Atlanta because those particular trains had Assigned crews with a specified on duty time. With the priority the trains would be sitting in Atlanta for 4 to 5 hours - using track space that other trains needed.
Note - these supervisors had had their position for a number of years.
When you are dealing with a septic tank.
UlrichYes, they're people.. and different viewpoints are great. The trouble starts when levels of competence and attitudes aren't up to snuff.
As in anything - cream rises to the top. Those with bad levels of competence and attitude generally get frustrated and move on to other endeavors - some never find a job that fits them and become frustrated old people that are against everything that happens in the world - featuring that the world is specifically against THEM.
As humans we do in fact make the enviornment in which we live and work.
Yes, they're people.. and different viewpoints are great. The trouble starts when levels of competence and attitudes aren't up to snuff.
n012944 SD70Dude n012944 SD70Dude n012944 Those same people that choose "quality of life" over a higher wage are often the same ones who complain about being priced out of the housing market......Hmm Typical management response. Is it really too much to ask for both? If only I was management. Nothing is given to you, you have to work for it. As someone who didn't party through my 20's but worked many 16 hour days in the dispatch office, who left plenty of family party's early or arrived late to them because of the railroad I have little sympathy for those not willing to give it all for a house. Due to my choices in my 20's, I am able to enjoy my 40's, in a house worth a lot of money. A good number of our Dispatchers could also be easily mistaken for managers at times........ Why, because they expect you to do your job?
SD70Dude n012944 SD70Dude n012944 Those same people that choose "quality of life" over a higher wage are often the same ones who complain about being priced out of the housing market......Hmm Typical management response. Is it really too much to ask for both? If only I was management. Nothing is given to you, you have to work for it. As someone who didn't party through my 20's but worked many 16 hour days in the dispatch office, who left plenty of family party's early or arrived late to them because of the railroad I have little sympathy for those not willing to give it all for a house. Due to my choices in my 20's, I am able to enjoy my 40's, in a house worth a lot of money. A good number of our Dispatchers could also be easily mistaken for managers at times........
n012944 SD70Dude n012944 Those same people that choose "quality of life" over a higher wage are often the same ones who complain about being priced out of the housing market......Hmm Typical management response. Is it really too much to ask for both? If only I was management. Nothing is given to you, you have to work for it. As someone who didn't party through my 20's but worked many 16 hour days in the dispatch office, who left plenty of family party's early or arrived late to them because of the railroad I have little sympathy for those not willing to give it all for a house. Due to my choices in my 20's, I am able to enjoy my 40's, in a house worth a lot of money.
SD70Dude n012944 Those same people that choose "quality of life" over a higher wage are often the same ones who complain about being priced out of the housing market......Hmm Typical management response. Is it really too much to ask for both?
n012944 Those same people that choose "quality of life" over a higher wage are often the same ones who complain about being priced out of the housing market......Hmm
Those same people that choose "quality of life" over a higher wage are often the same ones who complain about being priced out of the housing market......Hmm
Typical management response. Is it really too much to ask for both?
If only I was management. Nothing is given to you, you have to work for it. As someone who didn't party through my 20's but worked many 16 hour days in the dispatch office, who left plenty of family party's early or arrived late to them because of the railroad I have little sympathy for those not willing to give it all for a house.
Due to my choices in my 20's, I am able to enjoy my 40's, in a house worth a lot of money.
n012944 SD70Dude I'm not a party animal either, but if you can't afford a house on 40 hrs/week, or if you have to work endlessly with no real schedule or days off, then something is wrong. I doubt there are many places where T&E can't afford to buy a house. It might not be a brand new 3000 square foot house on water in a golf cart community, but they are out there.
SD70Dude I'm not a party animal either, but if you can't afford a house on 40 hrs/week, or if you have to work endlessly with no real schedule or days off, then something is wrong.
I'm not a party animal either, but if you can't afford a house on 40 hrs/week, or if you have to work endlessly with no real schedule or days off, then something is wrong.
I doubt there are many places where T&E can't afford to buy a house. It might not be a brand new 3000 square foot house on water in a golf cart community, but they are out there.
I would find it very difficult to afford a house in Toronto or Vancouver and likely Montreal, especially if I were working a yard assignment. Edmonton and Calgary aren't quite at that point yet, but house prices just seem to keep rising.....
On the other hand if you're willing to transfer to somewhere like Chetwynd, McLennan or Humboldt the prices become a lot more reasonable.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
jeffhergertUP dispatchers are management. In the past dispatchers were a bit higher than other crafts. Something like a management support position. Of course we're talking before the current micromanagement of everything. The guy sitting on the left side of the video Balt linked to is a friend of mine. He's an engineer, currently working the extra board out of my home terminal. Although an engineer, he belongs to SMART-TD/Engineers instead of the BLE&T. Jeff
In the past dispatchers were a bit higher than other crafts. Something like a management support position. Of course we're talking before the current micromanagement of everything.
The guy sitting on the left side of the video Balt linked to is a friend of mine. He's an engineer, currently working the extra board out of my home terminal. Although an engineer, he belongs to SMART-TD/Engineers instead of the BLE&T.
UP Dispatchers are non-contract. BNSF, NS & CSX Dispatchers are all contract employees. I don't know about CP/KCS & CN.
All Dispatchers are supervisory employees in that they have to coordinate and control the work action/functions of multiple classes of employees on a specific segment of track.
It is far too easy to fall into a us vs. them mindset during the heat of chaotic operations for whatever of the hundreds of reasons.
UP dispatchers are management.
Backshop n012944 Why, because they expect you to do your job? That's just a little bit nasty (and uncalled for). I'm sure T&E crews do their jobs because that's the only way that they can get back home. Your continual undertone lets me know what you think of employees lower on the totem pole than you.
n012944 Why, because they expect you to do your job?
That's just a little bit nasty (and uncalled for). I'm sure T&E crews do their jobs because that's the only way that they can get back home. Your continual undertone lets me know what you think of employees lower on the totem pole than you.
There is no "totem pole". T&E are not below dispatchers, so I have no idea what you are talking about. And it seems you don't either
An "expensive model collector"
This is an interesting "layperson's primer" on the railroad industry published in February 2022 by CNBC, but some of the general statements about personnel that they make are actually a big cause of the current meltdown issues.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q79BHfxfaSI
Flintlock76 Ulrich Years ago the fax machines would hum away all day long... now they sit mostly silent. A big exception to that are hospitals and medical offices, they're still big users of faxes, or at least they were when I retired in 2018. Doctors and nurses like having that paper handy immediately, not running information through a computer and then to a printer. Not that they don't do the latter, but the fax was more efficient. A fax was also a lot easier to read than info off a smart phone screen.
Ulrich Years ago the fax machines would hum away all day long... now they sit mostly silent.
A big exception to that are hospitals and medical offices, they're still big users of faxes, or at least they were when I retired in 2018. Doctors and nurses like having that paper handy immediately, not running information through a computer and then to a printer. Not that they don't do the latter, but the fax was more efficient. A fax was also a lot easier to read than info off a smart phone screen.
Until about 3 or 5 years ago in a lot of places CN was completely dependent on fax, landline telephones (can't use cellphones while on duty), our antiquated two-way radio system, and mountains upon mountains of paper (every time you did work you got a whole brand new train journal).
Things have gradually started to change, fax has been replaced by scanning and emailing and our train journals and rulebooks are now on a company supplied tablet.
That money talks,
I'll not deny.
I heard it once.
It said "Goodbye".
And with rampant inflation it is leaving all of us faster than ever.
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